Does anyone actually have a reasonable defense of Democracy

Author: WyIted

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WyIted
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It seems to me Democracy is bad at protecting freedom. Two types of freedom are important, that's autocracy and freedom of speech. We see a decline in both but freedom of speech is easier to point at with people in England and other countries literally being arrested for posting memes or denying the holocaust.

The one assumption you want to make when it comes to rights in a democracy is that eventually somebody you dislike will hold power and you don't want to trust them to regulate speech among other things, not to mention how disgusting it is to limit freedoms (In terms of free movement, free speech etc.) This is why it's important to protect these rights and why it was wrong for the government to use any soft power to limit the press or social media at all. Though if the press refuses to make any attempt at being free from bias and hold a monopoly on what media some people consume than it may be fair to use some force to get them to be unbiased. One step is to ban any attempts to narrative build, they should limit themselves to relaying facts. The way the facts should be relayed is also important but I don't want to get this discussion too much in the weeds.

Anyway Growing up, every political candidate I have seen in my lifetime up until Trump has been from the establishment uniparty. Even then, I am thinking that Democracy is still the way to go. I know they have their hands in all the levers of power but if they do get there through their manipulation of the media and other conniving it's fair. I assume they respect Democracy and so when it's time to go then they will peacefully leave. I never imagined I would ever have to see them make that decision but I trusted it.

They have been given that option in several places and they use all of their tentacles to essentially cheat. Many populist leaders who do challenge the liberal elite of the main parties have gained power and in return they are either blocked from actually exercising that power, for example Trump's first term where he was handcuffed and blocked even from making moves that the majority of democrats agreed with . He was blocked by establishment shills from both parties.

Other leaders have been thrown off the ballot, we have seen many arrested like Bolsanaro and the Philipino president, Duterte. Zelensky attempted to have his political rival arrested prior to the war.  It's clear the establsihment doesn't care for Democracy. It is clear that they in fact don't even care about freedom, So why exactly should the populist right who has been labeled Nazis, despite being forced to withstand Nazi like tactics used on them for example limits on their freedom of speech and being imprisoned for having the audacity to be the voice of the people,. I ask why should they not just start canceling democracy and staying in power?

The right has proven it's ability to preserve freedom better, to lower crime so the elderly are safe to walk the streets at night, they have also shown an ability to love their native population as opposed to trying to replace them with foreign labor for cheaper driving down their wages, raising home prices and increasing crime.

With their record of making life so much better for everybody and with the uniparty's history of holding onto every tentacle of power in unfair and insidious ways, wouldn't the best protection for your freedom, your safety and your wallet be to support and encourage right wing leaders to destroy democracy?
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@WyIted
The founding fathers believed democracy works best when it is hobbled like a 1 legged hooker. That's why we are one of the only bicameral democracies left around.
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@WyIted
Democracy gave us two world wars and maybe a 3rd one too.

There is no "defense of democracy.".

Democracy has been the worst system ever invented.

It has very much proved that no matter how much you educate masses, a more educated politician will easily fool them.

Masses use feelings, not logic. Most of them cant make a difference between a story and a logical framework.

Logic will always be only available to the 1% of society.

The remaining 99% who have no logic are somehow the ones who are supposed to rule a country and make all decisions?

I will say, a good dictator is ALWAYS better and more effective than any democratic system ever will be.

Democracy is always just majority's intelligence, where smart dictator is above majority's intelligence.

Take North Korea and South Korea. North Korea had 2x smaller population from the start, yet now South Korean population is collapsing and North Korea has almost 3 times higher birth rates. North Korea remains stable and builds military constantly, which is why it is North Korea which has ICBMs and not South Korea. South Korea doesnt even have long range missiles.

Literally all strongest countries on Earth: China, Russia, North Korea, Iran... are all basically total dictatorships.

Democracies are on the edge of collapse.

Democracy destroys birth rates, wastes money and resources, introduces harmful laws based on popular feelings. This isnt exactly great.
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@Best.Korea
Democracy has been the worst system ever invented.
Well, except for everything else that's been tried.

all strongest countries on Earth: China, Russia, North Korea, Iran
America is stronger. Also quality of life is a more important metric.
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@Savant
Well, except for everything else that's been tried.
Dictatorships worked for over 10000 years and it works today too.

Democracy was around for barely 300 years and it already turned to shit every country it was implemented in.

America is stronger.
Incorrect. China builds more ships in a month than USA does in a year. Russia produces more artillery than USA and Europe combined. North Korea in just few months sent more artillery to Russia than USA and Europe did to Ukraine in whole year.

Also quality of life is a more important metric.
The quality of life is really irrelevant if that same quality destroys future generations through low birth rates. Sure, everyone has more money and can have more things when not having children, but then the country eventually goes to shit. Japan and South Korea are best examples of "democracy gone to shit".  Highest life standards in the world, yet average woman cant afford to have even one kid. Good job. Plus, these democracies arent exactly famous for giving people what they want. Hence the highest suicide rates in the world.
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@WyIted
Europe as of late has turned into an authoritarian shithole and I wouldn't hold them up as a model of democracy, but I'll try to answer the question at large.

This problem was actually solved more than 2,100 years ago by a political theorist named Polybius. His answer is that no one political system is ultimately defensible, since all eventually degenerate into hideous caricatures of themselves.

Monarchy/Tyranny
If you're lucky, monarchy/autocracy/dictatorship will start out with a "good" king who's reasonable and isn't bloodthirsty. But sooner or later you'll get a tyrant. This is for a number of reasons. If it's a literal monarchy/hereditary dictatorship and the king picks his son or another close relative to succeed him, this isn't merit-based and he'll get the job even if he's a bad person. After all, it's natural for any parent to let their child inherit their kingdom and continue the family dynasty, and they might want this badly enough that they're willing to overlook said character defects.
But let's assume there isn't a hereditary scheme. If the dictator wishes or has little choice other than to retire while still alive, then this puts him in a precarious position. To safeguard himself and his family, he will choose a loyalist who won't go after him (a big part of why Putin replaced Yeltsin). Again, this concern trumps competency or decency.
But let's assume that the dictator is planning for a competent and basically decent man to succeed him when he's dead, and he never happens to retire while alive. This runs into another problem: dictators, even monarchs, frequently get overthrown and replaced by another dictator. Sooner or later, then, a person who lacks decency or competency will take the throne.

Now you might be thinking, what's one bad dictator every now and then? Well, all of the great genocides of the 20th century were done by dictators. Mao's famines, caused by his mismanagement of the heavily centralized economy (dictators left or right wing love command economies because it gives them more control and marginalizes the power of outside groups, but this also makes economic downturns more disastrous) killed up to 55 million people, the North Korean famine of the '90s killed up to 3.5 million people, Stalin's Holodomor (admittedly more intentional than the former two) killed up to 5 million Ukrainians, and the Ethiopian famine of the '80s, exacerbated by a communist dictatorship, killed more than 1 million people.

Aristocracy/Oligarchy
What about aristocracy? Well, for one thing you get some pretty massive and inescapable conflicts of interest. Traditionally, the aristocrats were just the rich, especially the rent-seeking rich (e.g. plantation bosses). So what'll they do? Enrich themselves maximally at the expense of everyone else. Perhaps bring back slavery or serfdom. Stymie needed economic reforms that come at their expense; for example, in the early to mid 19th century Russia's aristocrats held back the Industrial Revolution by not allowing peasants to leave the farms to go work in the factories. That's an outdated example, but 21st century equivalents exist, e.g. zoning laws. Again, maybe the first generation of aristocrats will be noble and not too greedy, but eventually that will change.

But suppose that, instead, you have a party-based aristocracy like in communist countries. While I'm sure there's still no small degree of nepotism, the initial selection process for who joins the aristocracy may be a lot more meritocratic. Well, for one thing, this needs some kind of ideology to justify it. If communism, they'll hold back the economy and rule with a bloody iron fist. If Chinese communism, then admittedly things are going pretty good for them right now since they're forcing capitalism at gunpoint. But China, assuming Xi Jinping doesn't make himself god-emperor for life, will eventually run into the same problem as above: either there's a massive overlap between the communist party bosses and the capitalist overlords, or you have an ascendant outside interest group which increasingly views communist rule as an obstacle to its own interests, or the fresh blood party members who aren't rich try to return things to old fashioned dysfunctional communism. One way or another, a bad scenario will happen.

But both monarchy and aristocracy have another problem: they aren't responsive to the wants and needs of the people they're in charge of governing. In a democracy, people are allowed to express their frustrations at the ballot box and through their speech, which either forces incumbent politicians to pay attention when people are unhappy or replaces them with new politicians who got elected by doing so. In short, voting and free speech aren't just about voting and free speech; these things provide useful data to the government. Undemocratic societies, which don't host free elections and where people who criticize the government risk being jailed or worse, have governments which are comparably less informed about how to serve their constituents. At best, things chug along normally but people aren't as happy as they could be. At worst, these frustrations eventually boil over into civil wars.
A good case study would be the Soviet Union. It had a large economy, but at the same time there was a perpetual shortage of all kinds of consumer goods, because the government simply didn't know what goods people wanted. Likewise, consumer goods that were available often weren't very good. Granted, this example is more an indictment of command economies than of dictatorships, but there are other examples. Europe itself could be called one; previously fringe parties like the AfD and the one in Romania grew to prominence at the polls because, due to people being afraid to break hate speech laws, the establishment didn't realize how just unpopular mass immigration from the Muslim world was, so it miscalculated and brought in more migrants in a way that ultimately backfired.

Democracy
But democracy, defined as a simple majority of the voting public being allowed to make the government do whatever they want, isn't much if any better. If you have a large middle class then democracy can perform very well, since this is truly rule by the "wisest". The middle class is mostly self-sufficient while also being egalitarian-minded and not in a position to lord over others. It has the most vested interest in economic growth and opposes both welfare robber states and stagnant plutocracies. They care about the well-being of their local communities, unlike many of the poor, while also not being rich and cosmopolitan enough to just take a plane out of the country to Switzerland or Dubai if everything collapses on itself. The poor can't afford taxes, and the rich know how to avoid them, so it's the middle class who shoulder much of the national tax burden.
But the problem with democracy is twofold: first, when the poor comprise a voting majority, they will seek to enrich themselves by using the government to steal from anyone who has more. Perhaps they'll employ self-deception so that they don't consciously realize how shitty and selfish their actions are, but either way if no one has the power to tell them "no" everything will crash and burn after a while. In this environment also, language of class conflict will take hold and social cohesion will unravel, meaning the rich and middle class (what's left of it) will stop thinking about how to positively contribute to society and focus instead on protecting themselves. Second, even where there's a large middle class, many of them will sympathize with the plight of the poor enough to want to help without being noble enough to donate their own fortunes to charity. They'll form a coalition with the poor and institute the welfare state.

What To Do
So every kind of government is self-defeating. What now? Luckily, Polybius has a prescription: the mixed government, where the strengths of one approach cancel out the fatal flaws of another. That's most Western governments today, but especially the United States. The most successful mixed governments have a strong share of democratic elements in the mixture, which is why they're colloquially dubbed "democracies" without actually being so.

And in that sense, democracies have a good track record. Here's the Human Development Index; you can check it out for yourself, and with the exceptions of Dubai (a lot of oil) and Hong Kong there aren't a lot of undemocratic states on top of the list.


Granted, this is a flawed list as it doesn't deduct points from Europe or Canada for its lack of free speech, but these countries are materially well off, at the very least, in the way that dictatorships are not.
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@Swagnarok
That's insightful. I have heard this before but I could have sworn it was plato. I must be misremembering or maybe plato inspired this guy. 

I was thinking that the West is successful not because of democracy but because we are just superior in values perhaps. Maybe in some other way, because you have colonialism which seems to have really given 3rd world countries really high standards of living at least until the colonialists were kicked out and then the 3rd world countries reverts back to being just a terrible place to live. 

The reason I don't want to say it's genetic is because Russians look pretty white like other Western countries but have a terrible quality of life. Maybe there is something unique about Slavic people that make them inherently inferior though at least in a way that interacts with culture. 


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@WyIted
Globally, systems of social governance are dictatorships, more ore less tempered by the sensibilities of the populace.


Democracy is a system of social  governance, wherein dictatorship is limited by the sensibilities of the populace.

Isn't the preservation of democracy, the purpose of the 2nd amendment?


I'm also not sure that there is any evidence to suggest that totalitarianism is reasonably defendable.


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@WyIted
Does anyone actually have a reasonable defense of Democracy
Of course not, there is no reasonable defense of Democracy.

Democracy denies the supremacy of the white race by letting vermin vote, and because they vote, politicians are more inclined to divert resources from Aryans to undeserving people from shithole countries, and less inclined to use the military and police against the non-white infestation.  This is completely unacceptable, only a fascist dictator can accomplish our goals.

Our fearless leader was wrong, there are not "good people on both sides", our enemies are inferior, the Aryan race will reign supreme for a thousand years.

We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children.

Heil Hitler

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@zedvictor4
Isn't the preservation of democracy, the purpose of the 2nd amendment?
If I am being honest which I don't like to do because I support the 2nd amendment. I think there was a strong opposition to having a standing army by many of the countries founders so they wanted an armed populace not to challenge the federal government but to protect against invasion.
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@Sidewalker
I assume you actually support democracy. If you are correct in supporting it, I really think we can gain some value from hearing your arguments, especially since a lot of the kids on this site have some political aspirations. 


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@WyIted
For sure.

But isn't an armed populace defending against invasion, essentially a standing army?

And don't modern armed forces, need some sort of federal organisation?

Would you want nukes in the hands of a raggle-taggle bunch of gun toting, beer swilling hill billies?
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@zedvictor4
I think a national guard for the whole country could work. Just reserve troops but back then no it was just random cowboys with guns and ideally they would get together occasionally to practice military skills. 

They didn't want a standing army due to some issues with how the military was in England. It's why this was accompanied by laws against soldiers forcing random people to quarter them in their houses.

In modern times, in the nuclear age yes we do need something but it could be run by all reserve troops. Professional soldiers that have seen action who I have talked to, have told me they are miles ahead of the reserve units that have served near or with them. Personally it's a risk I'd be willing to take. 

To me freedom comes with huge risks of things like invasion or losing more wars etc. 

Its not something I would press if I was ever elected to public office just because it would be kind of fucked up to promote a policy 99% of people disagree with
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A standing army would basically work full time where as a militia is basically treating it like a hobby
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Democracy
But democracy, defined as a simple majority of the voting public being allowed to make the government do whatever they want, isn't much if any better. If you have a large middle class then democracy can perform very well, since this is truly rule by the "wisest". The middle class is mostly self-sufficient while also being egalitarian-minded and not in a position to lord over others. It has the most vested interest in economic growth and opposes both welfare robber states and stagnant plutocracies. They care about the well-being of their local communities, unlike many of the poor, while also not being rich and cosmopolitan enough to just take a plane out of the country to Switzerland or Dubai if everything collapses on itself. The poor can't afford taxes, and the rich know how to avoid them, so it's the middle class who shoulder much of the national tax burden.
But the problem with democracy is twofold: first, when the poor comprise a voting majority, they will seek to enrich themselves by using the government to steal from anyone who has more. Perhaps they'll employ self-deception so that they don't consciously realize how shitty and selfish their actions are, but either way if no one has the power to tell them "no" everything will crash and burn after a while. In this environment also, language of class conflict will take hold and social cohesion will unravel, meaning the rich and middle class (what's left of it) will stop thinking about how to positively contribute to society and focus instead on protecting themselves. Second, even where there's a large middle class, many of them will sympathize with the plight of the poor enough to want to help without being noble enough to donate their own fortunes to charity. They'll form a coalition with the poor and institute the welfare state.
This is a pile of bullshit. The truth is, everyone has a right to the world's (or a country's resources). Either everyone does, or no one does. If an electorate is largely poor while some have "fortunes" that only speaks to a broken system of wealth creation and wealth distribution. If the measure of the success of capitalism is not how efficiently it creates AND distributes wealth amongst the people, then we are living in a nonsense world. It is essentially implicitly a part of the social contract that of the resources you control you will generate and distribute wealth to other people. If not, you are no good to anyone and can be dispensed with. Why should a people honour that your daddy had the wealth before you? That is not a sensible basis for a society. A sensible basis for a society is one where we are all more or less equal, all have something to call our own for the time we are here, none are hungry, none are left out in the cold. That's fucking obvious.

Capitalism has been an incredible vehicle for the advancement of the human species, but there is such a thing as late stage capitalism. Capitalism was the gold rush. It was men with pickaxes and ambition in a wide open world. It was good for us all to let them stake out plots as their own to work. It was good for us all that they would pass down what they had and what they knew to their children who came after them. It generated wealth for us all. Central planning would have been too cumbersome and would have required more transparency than we could have managed then. And for the most part it was unneeded. The world was wide and open and full of treasures waiting to be discovered.

The landscape has changed. That vast and boundless frontier has given way to an economy where wealth is increasingly concentrated in the hands of a few. What once spurred innovation eventually cemented power. You don't just need ambition to succeed anymore, you need permission. You need to be let into that wealth. That is, if I just accept that wealth is yours. Why should I? What good are you to me? That's the fucking point of democracy.

Europe as of late has turned into an authoritarian shithole and I wouldn't hold them up as a model of democracy
This also is fucking retarded. You lot are dumb cunts and the whole world is laughing at you.
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as has been said..

You're thinking of the famous quote by Winston Churchill:
"Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."