Discussion On FDR

Author: Sunshineboy217

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Unpopular opinion: FDR is overrated. I do not mean (I’m talking to you, Mall) that he is talked about too often. What I mean is that when people rank presidents, they list FDR as one of, if not, the greatest president in American history. That’s not true. He was a good leader and orator, but I don’t think he was as good as people say he was. Why? I’ll tell you.

The Small Stuff
- When the Supreme Court ruled many of his New Deal policies as an unconstitutional over-extent of executive power, he (unsuccessfully) attempted to extend the   Supreme Court to 15 justices so that they could override the previous rulings. This was just a part of his attempt to keep power for much longer than any one man ever should.
- He refused to sign a piece of legislation that would prevent police officers from lynching African-Americans. This was a part of his redlining policies, where he would deny African-Americans some basic human rights just to stay on the good side of the Southern Democrats (aka Dixiecrats).
- He nominated Hugo Black to become a Supreme Court Justice, who was a well-known and prominent member of the Ku Klux Klan.
- He sat by and watched, and even approved, of harsh legislation that prevented Jewish refugees from Germany to enter the United States, resulting in those refugees being sent back to Germany to suffer from the Holocaust.

Executive Order #9066
Many see Franklin D. Roosevelt's internment as a bad decision, and a terrible response to Pearl Harbor, but for some reason, it doesn't seem to have any effect on how many view his presidency. But, in my opinion, this alone is enough to knock him out of the top 3. He literally authorized the internment of an approximated 120,000 Japanese Americans, the vast majority of whom were innocent and probably loyal American citizens! In those four years that Japanese-Americans were interned, Japanese-American children missed out on years of valuable educational time, and couldn't live normal lives like normal children. Innocent Americans were kept behind barbed wire in miserable conditions for 4 years. EO #9066 was what made us a little more like those we were at war with. Such a disgusting disregard for innocent fellow humans shouldn't have ever happened, and should never, ever happen again.

The New Deal
Okay. Let's talk about the New Deal. Was it really that amazing? First off, let's talk about the First New Deal. Most historians can agree that it didn't work. The First New Deal may have helped some Americans find jobs, but by the end of it, the Depression was still in full force. But then came the Second New Deal. Although the Second New Deal did generate change, it honestly wasn't much different from the First New Deal, other than a redistribution of wealth (sounds pretty Marxist to me), and the controversial NIRA (meant to protect laborers), which was struck down as unconstitutional because it placed over-reaching restrictions on the free market.

Granted, many can agree (and I am one of them) that the Second New Deal eventually did slowly start working. But then, as those programs were still taking effect, FDR decided to just cut the deficit. This caused yet another recession. As the "Roosevelt Recession" was still happening, American involvement in WWII (starting with the Lend-Lease Act) began, causing a need for war machine manufacturing and other important jobs. This brough employment level to nearly 100%, and, almost overnight, ended the Great Depression.

So, in my opinion, we will never truly know whether or not the New Deal programs would have worked. That's why we can't automatically give FDR full credit for fixing the Depression, but instead look at what he was able to accomplish before WWII began. And that's the largest growth of federal government power in American history, a growth that was so drastic and so over-reaching that some programs (as I have already stated twice) that were actually ruled as unconstitutional. Also, it caused the government to take on tens of billions of dollars of debt. It is even estimated that from 1933 to 1936, the federal government's debt grew by an insane 50%, only furthering a long, terrible American tradition of debt crises.

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@Sunshineboy217
Well, if you win WW2 and create a lot of welfare programs that remain popular today, that can overshadow a lot of other stuff. Here's how Sienna ranks him by category:

Background: #5
Party leadership: #1
Communication ability: #1
Relations with Congress: #2
Court appointments: #2
Handling of economy: #1
Luck: #5
Ability to compromise: #2
Willing to take risks: #3
Executive appointments: #3
Overall ability: #2
Imagination: #4
Domestic accomplishments: #3
Integrity: #16
Executive ability: #3
Foreign policy accomplishments: #1
Leadership ability: #3
Intelligence: #10
Avoiding crucial mistakes: #4
Experts' view: #2
Overall: #1

Court appointments seems vastly overrated given the court packing scandal, but the fact that it failed plus looking at who was appointed in isolation may explain the score. Integrity is his lowest ranking, which probably does a lot of heavy lifting for the internment camps. Should probably be counted as a crucial mistake, though. But then they put an abolitionist and a slave owner as #1 and #2 for integrity, so who knows what these scores even mean. If they're factoring in things like "imagination," that leaves a lot of room for bias. Hitler had a ton of imagination. Also easy to have a good relationship with Congress when your party has a strong majority. But again, court packing to try and get around Congress should probably make that score lower.

Another interesting thing is that the presidents ranked as luckiest tend to be ranked high everywhere else too. Just sort it by "overall" and look at the "luck" column or vice versa. It's like the rankers are noting a potential source of bias or conflating skill with outside factors and should account for it, but it still skews how the presidents are ranked. If you were around when good things happened, you get a high score. Though, tbf, I don't know how WW2 or the Depression make FDR "lucky." Like it's good news because you get to take credit for solving them? I don't know.
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I am currently co-teaching a unit on FDR.

FDR, while being a polarizing figure, was a mixed bag. His cost fixing initiatives were undeniably bad (Wicker v Filburn being the low point), but injecting money into a depressed economy was absolutely helpful. While it took a war to ultimately justify the levels of federal borrowing and spending to stabilize currency levels, overall FDR deserves the credit for that. Unlike his predecessors like Hoover, FDR wasn't afraid to experiment with different things (he borrowed price fixing from Mussolini) and that flexibility allowed him to ultimately overcome the great depression. During WW2, he even consulted with industry leaders to help fix the economy instead of the usual university wonks where he was born and raised most of his life..
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@Sunshineboy217
Great post, didn't know much of that and have been convinced (that rarely happens here, and it unusual that I feel more informed after reading a post here)

Regarding "The Small Stuff". I sure wouldn't call any of those items small stuff.


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@Sunshineboy217
Dead 80 years.

Move on Sunshine.
Sunshineboy217
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@zedvictor4
He’s been dead 80 years, but he’s still a very relevant topic in presidential history discussions. Many tend to make him overshadow the legacies of other presidents when they put him on a ranking list. So no zedvictor, I will not move on, because there’s no point in doing so.
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@Sunshineboy217
I will not move on, because there's no point in doing so.

Erring on the nihilistic there sunshine.


Trouble with historical records is that there is no way of verifying the accuracy of the data.

Depends upon who recorded it, and for what purpose.


I tend not to concern myself with long time dead folk, unless it's for quizzing purposes.
Sunshineboy217
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@zedvictor4
Then you never needed to enter this forum topic.

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@Sunshineboy217
See and respond.

Freedom of thought and expression.

Thankfully.

Not for you to decide what I might or might not need to do.

Have a nice day.
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@zedvictor4
You’re telling me that I can’t tell you what you might or might not need to do, yet you entered this forum just to tell ME what to do with “move on Sunshine.” Hypocrisy.

Have a nice day.

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Despite how I may feel about FDR's policies as a whole, there is no question that FDR was dealing with the worse situation going into a presidency. A huge problem like this needed creative solutions. Thus a lot of the policies that FDR created where based on the situation that he walked into and what he needed to do to pull us out of the situation. However, despite his policies that he enacted helping, nothing was more helpful than getting America into the war. Still, he did a lot to fix a country that was essentially in disarray and worked hard to build up the economy stronger. I think he was one of the best situational president since Abe Lincoln to enter the office and probably in my top 5 of presidents all time. If I am ranking, he is probably around 4-5
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@Vader
That’s a good view. I can respect that.
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@Sunshineboy217


I merely suggested moving on from an eighty years dead guy.

You stated that I never needed to do this.

Reciprocal prerogatives then.

Have another nice day.