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@Smithereens
Do you deny that most societies have come up with a God story? Of course it is also cultural, the question is, why?
Does Humanity Need A God Story?
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@SkepticalOne
That being said, I have no problem accepting 'goddidit' is a common explanation regarding magnificent or frightening aspects of nature, but I dont accept that means we 'have a god shaped hole' in our head or hearts.
OK. If this so, why do we seem to always want to plug that hole with a God shaped stopper?
I am not so much making an argument, as asking why?
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@SkepticalOne
Did you intend to @me? It was Ethang who said the Piraha story was debunked.
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@ethang5
Eth wrote:
OK. If this so, why do we seem to always want to plug that hole with a God shaped stopper?I am not so much making an argument, as asking why?
To put things as neatly as I can, I would say that humans invented gods to control nature and then invented religion to control the gods.
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@ethang5
Fear of the unknown.
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@ethang5
As I said before, I don't accept there is a god shaped hole in our head or hearts. An explanation with all powerful being is probably one of the easiest explanations with which to quell our fear and/or satiate our awe. Our desire to have AN answer sometimes outweighs our desire to know we have THE answer.
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@keithprosser
Sorry, Keith. I'm still figuring this site out!
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@keithprosser
So Gods came before religion? Interesting.
I remember an atheist pointing out to me that religion must have been started by an atheist.
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@SkepticalOne
OK. I will simply you are more interested in proving there is no God than addressing the question. Thanks.
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@ethang5
You've misunderstood my reply.
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@ethang5
Suppose we do have a hole; is it neccessary that it is 'God shaped'?
I'd say that hole is something like a desire to see meaning, patterm and purpose in the world and our lives.
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@ethang5
Well they haven't come up with 'god' stories is what I'm saying. They've come up with superstitions and 'gods' stories. Bunch of pagan nonsense. People came up with heathen and idolatrous beliefs because life was hard.
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@Smithereens
I live in a majority atheistic country with a secular government.
"Australia remains a religious country, with 60% of our population reporting a religious affiliation. However, the proportion of people reporting no religion, including people with secular and other spiritual beliefs, increased to 30% in 2016 – up from 22% five years ago." (http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/mf/2024.0)
Unless you want to argue that Australia has, in the past 2 years, exploded with irreligiosity (which will be quite hard without Census data), then you're wrong (again).
You're quickly becoming Dart's know-it-all kid who is often wrong.
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@Smithereens
The reasons are multifaceted. There isn't just one reason we can point to. I'm sure hard lives had to do with it. But, everyone keeps forgetting the most important. Spiritual experiences. Now, most could be delusion or a mind trick... but, i am sure this was among the main reasons humanity started to wonder. Imagine... everything that would happen that we know now to be conformation bias, etc., to earlier humans would be amazing. "I heard a voice say we will win the war"... well, who was the voice? From there, humans started defining gods, etc., to explain these phenomena. Accordingly, i am pretty sure spiritual experiences is one of the main reason people invented religions and spiritual stories.
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@Outplayz
I think it more accurate to say people imagining experiences and labeling them "spiritual", which basically means unknown or unknowable but imaginable.
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@Analgesic.Spectre
I can tell you've never been to Australia otherwise you would be aware of the fact that people who identify with a religion here typically don't believe it. 8% of the population actually go to church, the rest who don't are happy to call themselves christians even though by a biblical definition they are not. It's a culture of identities that stems from roots. I'd call myself a christian because I grew up a christian even if I didn't believe in christianity. That's the culture we have. By technicality, I'm very wrong, most people here call themselves religious. Very few people actually believe the bible or attend church however, so for the context of discussion I'm going to tell ethang the reality and not the statistic.
Furthermore, I seem to recall asking you to defend your assertion that mind reading is something more than a fantasy, but you don't seem to be capable of either that or admitting it's not possible. If it's because you've become quite emotional about (which I sense from your tone) then that's fair and I'll stop asking, as some people can be quite sensitive and need the extra consideration.
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@Outplayz
most people are religious because their parents were religious.
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@Smithereens
By technicality, I'm very wrong, most people here call themselves religious.
That's all you had to say, instead of doubling down on an embarrassing mistake (i.e. not being able to read a Census statistic lol) and then trying to derail the conversation with an irrelevant, passive-aggressive digression (obviously still reeling from the intellectual thumping I gave you there).
You are the know-it-all we roll our eyes at, Benjamin.
Shoo.
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@Analgesic.Spectre
If Oz is anything like the UK, most people are indifferent to religion - it simply doesn't play a role in their thinking or their lives. But because people never actually think about 'does god exist' or the power of prayer much in their day-to-day lives they retain a vague notion (learned as a kid) that religion is a 'good thing' - at least in its moderate form!
I wonder for how many people being asked in a religion survey its the first time they have given the matter any actual explicit thought. Someone who believed in Jesus and angels when they were 5 year old but have spent the next 30 years of their lives thinking about football, their family, work and what is on TV (but never thinking about 'god') might well be a 'nominal Christian' and check the Christian box on the form, but they are 'functionally atheists', never going to church or really believing in eaven and hell.
In the western world, Christianity had hijacked 'niceness'. To most westerners 'being religious' means no more than 'being a nice person with good manners'. At least it was like that - the last few decades have seen the rise of hard-core religionism. It has made people think a more about whether they should tick the 'Christian' box rather tan doing it automatically as not of any significance.
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@keithprosser
If Oz is anything like the UK, most people are indifferent to religion - it simply doesn't play a role in their thinking or their lives.
Do you have a source for this?
Someone who believed in Jesus and angels when they were 5 year old but have spent the next 30 years of their lives thinking about football, their family, work and what is on TV (but never thinking about 'god') might well be a 'nominal Christian' and check the Christian box on the form, but they are 'functionally atheists', never going to church or really believing in eaven and hell.
This is a reasonable objection to the Australian Census data, if you had the data to show it.
Just to be clear, the problem I had with the know-it-all is that he determined (for God knows why) that Church attendance determined whether one was Christian or not (it's obvious to the dullest that he is doubling down).
In the western world, Christianity had hijacked 'niceness'. To most westerners 'being religious' means no more than 'being a nice person with good manners'. At least it was like that - the last few decades have seen the rise of hard-core religionism. It has made people think a more about whether they should tick the 'Christian' box rather tan doing it automatically as not of any significance.
Again, do you have a source to support this?
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@keithprosser
You brought up holes, and you brought up shapes.
If you do not think people have God shaped holes, my question was, why do they seem to believe they do? They keep trying to plug up those holes with God shaped stoppers.
There is your opinion, and there is reality. Guess which one carries more weight with me?
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@SkepticalOne
You've misunderstood my reply.
I don't think I did.
No worries. I am used to the atheist knee-jerking to the "there is no God" argument regardless of what is being discussed.
If you still think you answered me, then thanks for answering.
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@keithprosser
Then why use stats at all? They are either worthy to be quoted, or they are not. But you will not be allowed to cherry-pick which stats back you up and which are wrong.
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@Analgesic.Spectre
No, the impression that australia is religious is false and I don't want Ethang to get the idea that is implied by the survey data. You're absolute incorrect if you think otherwise. That you would take away what you did from that reply tells me more about you and your ego than anything else.
Still awaiting your explanation for mind reading too. You did assert quite vehemently that it was real so...
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@ethang5
Just a heads up about know-it-all Smithereens. Please don't read his ill-informed opinion about Australia. The fact is that 60% of Australia is religious (http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/mf/2024.0), and thus it's certainly not a "majority atheistic country" (verbatim his words). Now he's trying to double down on the fact he's wrong by arguing that not going to church means you're not Christian (as if he has any say in what constitutes a Christian).
Seriously, he's been wrong in nearly every post I've seen, constructing outright lies like Australia is a "majority atheistic country".
He appears to be a typical, know-it-all kid.
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@Analgesic.Spectre
you must be quite the narcissist if your feelings are hurt by someone you're calling a "kid." The fact of the matter is that most self professing religious individuals here are completely irreligious. Christianity is a form of entertainment, where you go to church to see rock bands perform on stage. These are the style of churches that are big in Australia: https://hillsong.com/
you don't appear to know anything of the culture, and it's not relevant to you in the first place. You taking offense shows you have the maturity of a toddler, and the fact you can't defend your own ideas but only interject your opinions into conversations you weren't invited to gives me the impression of an edgy teen trying to grab my attention. You've had the opportunity for my attention when you were asked to defend your views on mind reading. You aren't worth my time if you can't commit to discussion so kindly read up on religion in Australia and defend your childlike fantasies of mind reading in the thread you were engaged in like a grown up.
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@ethang5
If you still think you answered me, then thanks for answering.
You're welcome.
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@Castin
Non sequitur, you come from the very Source where all truth and knowledge originate. What I mean by "perfectly" is the same as what I told you before, that there is no cap on what we can learn, know or experience other than what limitations we place on those things. What you may not know now, you may acquire later. The very fundamental things of life and our nature are things that are not out of reach.....you have conscious awareness, you have a mind and a brain, how are you NOT designed perfectly to know whatever it is you wish to understand? what other tool would you need?
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@Analgesic.Spectre
I wonder can you define what constitutes a christian?
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@vagabond
I wonder can you define what constitutes a christian?
I am not sure anything actually "constitutes" a Christian. But what defines a Christian to my knowledge is pretty straightforward. They follow the teaching of Christ.
You certainly have a lot of opinions and much to say about the subject of religion but are not very well read on it or much of anything else are you?