Bo Burnham Mafia Endgame

Author: Lunatic

Posts

Total: 28
Lunatic
Lunatic's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 8,944
3
3
6
Lunatic's avatar
Lunatic
3
3
6
Town Wins: (1st) iLikePie5, Moozer, mharman, Wylted, Casey, OwenT, Vader
Mafia Loses: (2nd) Whiteflame, Banana



Wow, what a short game. Town killed it. Didn't have a ton of power roles on either side this time, and without a theme split. the game was mostly solved on behavior. I don't really like the MVP thing, but shout out to mharman for playing well dp1 depsite an inactive environment, and pie did very well with his reads as well. Casey had good insight as well.

Good job town, you killed it.

Discuss...
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 5,455
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
Thank you for hosting the game

Lunatic
Lunatic's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 8,944
3
3
6
Lunatic's avatar
Lunatic
3
3
6
-->
@WyIted
np, np
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,159
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
Ya props to Casey and Mharman for catching Whiteflame. After that I already had Banana. Good work team
Lunatic
Lunatic's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 8,944
3
3
6
Lunatic's avatar
Lunatic
3
3
6
Yall should watch "inside" on netflix, very good special from bo burnham. Of course "What" and "Make Happy" are also goldmines. 
whiteflame
whiteflame's avatar
Debates: 27
Posts: 4,820
4
6
10
whiteflame's avatar
whiteflame
4
6
10
Well done town. Shouldn’t have straight claimed, but given my song, I thought it’d make more sense.

Props to Banana for her first game as scum. Came on a little strong after being sussed, but I think she did a good job maintaining it and making it look authentic.
whiteflame
whiteflame's avatar
Debates: 27
Posts: 4,820
4
6
10
whiteflame's avatar
whiteflame
4
6
10
-->
@Lunatic
Inside is so good. Really gotta get around to the other two.
Mharman
Mharman's avatar
Debates: 23
Posts: 5,275
3
6
10
Mharman's avatar
Mharman
3
6
10
-->
@ILikePie5
Hey I put Banana back on your radar tho

But you did the bulk of the work on Banana, thx
Mharman
Mharman's avatar
Debates: 23
Posts: 5,275
3
6
10
Mharman's avatar
Mharman
3
6
10
I wasn’t right on all my reasons for Whiteflame but I take credit for it.

I called out the JOAT but it’s honestly not that impressive. If you look at Banana’s claim and justification from any sort of mafia lens, the JOAT becomes obvious imo

Banana didn’t do that well, but that’s more or less expected of rookie scum

The setup looks fine to me.
Mharman
Mharman's avatar
Debates: 23
Posts: 5,275
3
6
10
Mharman's avatar
Mharman
3
6
10
-->
@iamanabanana
I hope you were just trying to pull a psychological tactic back there.

I’ve known Pie for eight years. He treated you no different than he would anyone else.
Casey_Risk
Casey_Risk's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 1,029
3
3
8
Casey_Risk's avatar
Casey_Risk
3
3
8
If I had chosen Mharman to swap with Banana instead of myself, I would have won us the game before DP2 lol.

Sorry your first game was rough for you, Banana. We got a little bit lucky with that WF lynch. There was some real behavioral analysis behind it, but our PM analysis turned out to be simply wrong. After WF died, I'm not sure there's anything you really could have done to save yourself tbh. That reporter claim was always going to make you suspicious, at least a little. 

GG! 
iamanabanana
iamanabanana's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 148
0
2
5
iamanabanana's avatar
iamanabanana
0
2
5
-->
@Mharman
I hope you were just trying to pull a psychological tactic back there.

I’ve known Pie for eight years. He treated you no different than he would anyone else.
No, no tactic there. I was being me. What you are saying right now though proves my point I was making in day phase one though. You all seem to be okay when men are dicks to anyone, wylted, pie and even you got extremely defensive and angry whenever I would stick up for myself, but when pie or anyone else is an arse than it's okay. It really is a man's world. I was literally agreeing with you and you were so offended by my comment that you took personal offense to it. You just prove my point. You can say it was my behavior, really, whatever you want. If I got lynched for my role claim fine, but I don't really think that was entirely it. I think you guys saw and took any type of behavior from a a woman that doesn't equal 100% submissiveness and gentleness as toxicity, while ignoring it from your male counterpart. Happens in society all the time, especially in gaming. A male raging in a game people are way more likely to ignore than a forgive, a female reacts even half the same way she gets called the most deplorable names, made fun of, exiled, etc. I am used to that type of behavior, but I figured on a debate website maybe there would be slightly higher standards for that sort of behavior. Turns out I was wrong, so yeah, this will be last mafia game, I am not going to continue to engage in this type of sexism going forward. Thanks for proving my point mharman.
Lunatic
Lunatic's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 8,944
3
3
6
Lunatic's avatar
Lunatic
3
3
6
-->
@iamanabanana
Don't blame the rest of us for the actions of the few lol. Pie is literally always a dick, Wylted is a notorious troll and likes to provoke reactions from people, you shouldn't take anything he says seriously. Don't give up on mafia though because of one game. I actually agree with whiteflame and thought you did really good. Whether you were lynched for solid reasons or not could be up for debate, but I do think there was an equal amount of suspicion on other players. Maybe you offending other players was the nail in your coffin, but I don't think it would have mattered that you were a female or not. If you piss pie of or disagree with him in general he is likely to want to lynch you, it's why one time when I was mafia I just  straight buddied him and svcked up to his every read, and he basically won the game for me as mafia by leading all the mislynches and town confirming me. You are right that players have ego's, just wrong that it has anything to do with the male/female dynamic lol.

Anyways, hope you come back, but if not, well GG it was fun while it lasted. 
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,159
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
No, no tactic there. I was being me. What you are saying right now though proves my point I was making in day phase one though. You all seem to be okay when men are dicks to anyone, wylted, pie and even you got extremely defensive and angry whenever I would stick up for myself, but when pie or anyone else is an arse than it's okay.
No one is saying it was okay. I’ve played with everyone here for years, and they have played with me for years. Everyone knows how everyone operates. Your job is Mafia is so camouflage yourself, so that you appear as a townie, and that includes behaving like a townie. Behavioral changes are great indicators of whether someone is scum or not. I picked up on the difference in your behavior from your town games early in the game and even more with your outburst. I’ve seen the exact same outburst from multiple players. 

It really is a man's world. I was literally agreeing with you and you were so offended by my comment that you took personal offense to it. You just prove my point. You can say it was my behavior, really, whatever you want. If I got lynched for my role claim fine, but I don't really think that was entirely it. I think you guys saw and took any type of behavior from a a woman that doesn't equal 100% submissiveness and gentleness as toxicity, while ignoring it from your male counterpart.
That’s just wrong. Your behavior shift indicated you were scum. If you always played like this as town, then we wouldn’t be able to see anything

Happens in society all the time, especially in gaming. A male raging in a game people are way more likely to ignore than a forgive, a female reacts even half the same way she gets called the most deplorable names, made fun of, exiled, etc.
It’s literally a game. Wylted is notorious for trying to provoke responses, reactions, anything that could help him ascertain behavior.

I am used to that type of behavior, but I figured on a debate website maybe there would be slightly higher standards for that sort of behavior. Turns out I was wrong, so yeah, this will be last mafia game, I am not going to continue to engage in this type of sexism going forward. Thanks for proving my point mharman.
Your perogative 🤷‍♂️
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,159
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@Lunatic
If you piss pie of or disagree with him in general he is likely to want to lynch you, it's why one time when I was mafia I just  straight buddied him and svcked up to his every read, and he basically won the game for me as mafia by leading all the mislynches and town confirming me. You are right that players have ego's, just wrong that it has anything to do with the male/female dynamic lol.
Likewise :)
Lunatic
Lunatic's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 8,944
3
3
6
Lunatic's avatar
Lunatic
3
3
6
-->
@ILikePie5
Likewise :)
Yeah I am a dick too. I chased away Danielle and her friend (forget the girls name now). So I still have chased away one more female mafia player than you. Get on my level bro!
Lunatic
Lunatic's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 8,944
3
3
6
Lunatic's avatar
Lunatic
3
3
6
LikeMagic, that was her name.


Yeah maybe I went a lil too hard. Oh well past is the past. I don't care about the game as much anymore to die on hills like this anymore. lol
Vader
Vader's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 14,984
5
8
11
Vader's avatar
Vader
5
8
11
-->
@iamanabanana
I think you played a great game of mafia and would love to see you stick around and play more. I am always a skeptic of claims to be honest and I think you will grow as a player
Vader
Vader's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 14,984
5
8
11
Vader's avatar
Vader
5
8
11
-->
@Lunatic
I remember this lol. 
Mharman
Mharman's avatar
Debates: 23
Posts: 5,275
3
6
10
Mharman's avatar
Mharman
3
6
10
-->
@iamanabanana
Could you point to what Pie said that was so dickish? I didn’t see anything worth getting offended over. Not from Pie anyway.

As for Wylted, don’t take him seriously. His remarks can be jarring at first, but sooner or later you realize he just has an edgy sense of humor.

And finally, about me: I wasn’t offended by the fact that your statement back there was a remark against men. I brushed that aspect of it off. Rather, I was irritated by the fact that the statement did nothing to refute Pie’s arguments against you. 

When you are being accused in a game of mafia, you must defend your innocence at some point. You have a few options:

1. Construct an argument based on logic, evidence, and deception if needed. This is the best option. While you run the risk of losing the argument and getting lynched, you have a lot of agency over what happens because you are actively taking the fight to your opponent. The more skilled you are, the more rewarding this option is.

2. Sit back and parrot others’ defense of you. This option is subpar, but you can get away with it on occasion; your odds are significantly better if you are a noob, since people expect less from you. Since you are relying on others to make your case for you, you have less agency over what happens. This is what players of lesser skill (usually noobs) tend to go for.

3. Become silent and hope for the best. This is a bad choice. If you are doing this, you are in a desperate situation. You can’t defend yourself because you aren’t skilled enough, and no one else can make a passable case for you, probably because there isn’t one. You may have been playing like an egregious town idiot, but you’re probably scum and on the verge of getting lynched. You have no agency whatsoever, all you can do is passively hope town gets distracted.

4. Make an argument that is completely irrelevant and fallacious. This is a horrible choice. You are trying to do something to help your case, but in reality you’re just flailing about, hoping town decides to believe you for whatever nonsensical reason. You spent all the at time typing up a post, and what did you do with it? Nothing useful, so now you’ve wasted the time of the players who read it as well. Not only have you demonstrated that you have no case for your own innocence, you have also demonstrated that you would rather actively distract from the issue than address any arguments. You look scummy for it. You have agency; the problem is, you’ve used it to drive any logically thinking player away from your side of the argument.

This is part of why Casey flipped on you, and it’s part of why I eventually flipped on you. You started off with option #2, but your post about Pie being the big bad man was nothing more than option #4. Pie being a man and you being a woman has nothing to do with who’s mafia and who’s town. It simply isn’t relevant to discussion town is trying to have, so bringing up that red herring/ad hominem combo will make you look scummy. In most cases where option #4 rears its ugly head, it’s because noob scum has been caught and they don’t know what to do at all.

I don’t blame you for playing like a noob; you are one. But please: Recognize the fact that you lost this game based on your poor performance, not sexism from others.

I’m sorry to hear you are quitting mafia. As badly as I just tore into your play this game, I think you have potential to be a good player, and I think your town play is pretty good compared to most noobs. Your scum play needs work, but that’s all the more reason to play more games and hopefully get practice there. If you ever want to return to playing mafia, the door’s always open for you.

WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 5,455
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
-->
@iamanabanana
. You all seem to be okay when men are dicks to anyone, wylted, pie and even you got extremely defensive and angry whenever I would stick up for myself,
No I didn't. I felt empathy for you and I did enjoy turning the needle a bit but I don't see any issues with you having an emotional reaction
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 5,455
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
-->
@iamanabanana
You are projecting a lot of that stuff though. 

Like your example with male and female gamers raging. If a male does that he is ragged on and told to kill himself, if anything the female is ragged on but is treated with more empathy.

Nobody knows your gender here. Come on with a different profile and larp as a male and see how people treat you, if you want a real comparison. I would say I didn't know you were female until you mentioned it in your criticism.
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 5,455
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
People trying to treat you the same as men is more of a problem TBH. It's a bunch of INTJ/INTP people here. A more masculine personality type. They have made multiple comments about being logical. 

This is not how I trained female poker players, because they need their emotions and trying to stifle them is more of an issue that hurts their game. I would teach q different strategy based on different emotions. 

Angry, you are going to learn how to play like a LAGG without tilting.  Sad you are going to play a bit more passive for a bit but used controlled aggression. Excessively happy you are going to talk more get guys to follow you into more hands and use your speech to elicit tells. 
Cerulean
Cerulean's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 306
1
2
4
Cerulean's avatar
Cerulean
1
2
4
Wow, impressive sweep. It would be a lie to say there wasn't at least a little luck involved (right for the wrong reason with WF), but still a very solid Town game.

The only balance issue I can see is that specifically a WF lynch in a F5 LYLO would have been an instant Town loss, which is a little jarring.

Moozer325
Moozer325's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 1,186
3
2
8
Moozer325's avatar
Moozer325
3
2
8
Wow, I don;t think Luna was a bastard mod, and scum played a great game too, I think we just killed it as town. Nice job guys.
Mharman
Mharman's avatar
Debates: 23
Posts: 5,275
3
6
10
Mharman's avatar
Mharman
3
6
10
-->
@Cerulean
We had sussed Whiteflame for valid reasons long before he claimed. At least I did. Pretty sure Casey did as well. Obviously not every reason for our case is going to be correct.

As for balance, town has some good utility and a confirmable role. Pie's role can be used to confirm other roles as well. I think the Whiteflame's role is meant to negate that advantage. You are correct that it's a little scumsided, but it's close enough to the center for me.
whiteflame
whiteflame's avatar
Debates: 27
Posts: 4,820
4
6
10
whiteflame's avatar
whiteflame
4
6
10
-->
@iamanabanana
Turns out I was wrong, so yeah, this will be last mafia game, I am not going to continue to engage in this type of sexism going forward. Thanks for proving my point mharman.
Well, I'm honestly sorry to hear it. Speaking as someone who was on your side throughout this game, I felt that the others approached your behavior genuinely, even if a couple of them were trolling you over it. I understand if that was frustrating, but that was their aim only insofar as it elicited a reaction from you that they felt they could read. Still, if this was an intensely stressful experience, I understand that you wouldn't want to put yourself through that again.

Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Lunatic
vi.