After thinking about it

Author: TheUnderdog

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TheUnderdog
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Wrt the argument, 

"If there is a kid and a Dad in a canoe and the kid has a contagious illness that has a .02% chance of killing the dad, then the dad isn't allowed to murder the kid to spare him the risk of death", the argument is correct, but only because there is a consented risk.  If the Dad didn't want to be at risk for the illness, then he just maintains social distancing from his kid.  If he doesn't want to ever be around his kid, then he should set the kid up for adoption.

Parents being around kids with a .02% chance of having a deadly illness consented to that risk, otherwise they would just not have the kid.  Unwanted pregnancy is not a consented risk.

Because of this, abortion should be legal until the moment of birth, because there is no time where you get prosecuted by the state for failing to take a risk to your life.
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@rodh7
See above.
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@TheUnderdog
If consent to sex isn't consent to pregnancy, then consent to be in a canoe isn't consent to catch a disease.
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@TheUnderdog
I don't know what that is, but I know it isn't thinking
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@Savant
 If consent to sex isn't consent to pregnancy, then consent to be in a canoe isn't consent to catch a disease.
You could say it's different because the odds of having sex has a lifetime 1/3 chance about that you have an unplanned pregnancy.  It's not like the risk of disease is nearly that high solely from getting in canoes, even over the course of your life.
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@TheUnderdog
Ok, so then the pregnant woman would have an even greater obligation to not kill the child than a guy getting into a canoe. Since she had a reasonable chance of seeing the pregnancy coming.
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@Savant
If consent to sex isn't consent to pregnancy, then consent to be in a canoe isn't consent to catch a disease.
Near 100% concise. I see that less and less often.
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@TheUnderdog
If you don't want children, don't have sex. Plain and simple.

It's just like playing with matches. If you don't want to get burned, it's nothing to play with.

The problem is, people misuse sex. So we have all this issue.

Unwanted pregnancy, unwanted pregnancy, unwanted pregnancy, unwanted pregnancy.

Stop making a game between yourselves out of lying down.

These are matches you playing with. The responsibility is not in running from the consequences.


Take the responsibility not to engage. Just like with the use of alcohol. Drinking games and whatnot. So we have all these DUIs and vehicular homicides.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Consent to sex is consent to pregnancy.
Just like eating unhealthy is agreement to poor health.
You know better.
These people know better.
They know what they're getting involved in.
They think they're being responsible using so cold birth control.
The real birth control is abstinence.
Did you not know sex was not designed to prevent births nor designed to be prevented against?

This is why we have all this backfiring. Things are not being done in order and approached in order.

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@Savant
Bingo.
TheUnderdog
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@Savant
It's a good point, but then you would have to answer the following question:

Abortion should be banned for consensual sex unless there is an X% chance the mother would die without an abortion.

How much is X%?  Anything other than 0,50, or 100 is going to be arbitrary.
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@TheUnderdog
Anything other than 0,50, or 100 is going to be arbitrary.
0, 50, and 100 are also arbitrary. But let's say 50.

You also run into the same issue with the canoe, since you're necessarily going to be saying "Dad can't shove the kid out of the canoe unless there is at least an X% chance of the kid killing the dad."
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@Savant
0, 50, and 100 are also arbitrary. But let's say 50.
Then if a woman is pregnant with a zygote that has a 45% chance of killing her, then she would be legally forced to take that risk.  Seems too harsh.

Dad can't shove the kid out of the canoe unless there is at least an X% chance of the kid killing the dad.
If there was a 10% chance that I would die to save a kid’s life (assuming I knew those odds in advance), then I would not take that chance.  Everyone that saves someone from drowning believes they don’t have any significant chance of dying from saving another person.
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@TheUnderdog
Seems too harsh.
This opinion seems to be based on an arbitrary sense of what seems harsh, and you just criticized arbitrary cutoffs. I'm having trouble following your logic.

If there was a 10% chance that I would die to save a kid’s life (assuming I knew those odds in advance), then I would not take that chance.  Everyone that saves someone from drowning believes they don’t have any significant chance of dying from saving another person.
That's not exactly the original scenario you presented, but would 10% would be an acceptable cutoff in your view? Again, you seem to be using arbitrary cutoffs after previously implying that arbitrary cutoffs are bad.
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@Savant
That's not exactly the original scenario you presented, but would 10% would be an acceptable cutoff in your view? Again, you seem to be using arbitrary cutoffs after previously implying that arbitrary cutoffs are bad.
I'm not sure.  If it's .0001%, then I would take the chance.  But I would probably let every adult decide for themselves (aka, being pro choice).
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@TheUnderdog
Overthink.


So a 99.98 chance of not dying from a contagious infection.

More chance of falling out of the canoe and drowning.

And so, in a uterus  somewhere are a couple of fused gametes.


Only UDog would come up with this radical hypothesis.



TheUnderdog
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@zedvictor4
Only UDog would come up with this radical hypothesis.
I kind of have to do this on issues where many people disagree with each other.
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@TheUnderdog
Keep up the good work.
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--> "If there is a kid and a Dad in a canoe and the kid has a contagious illness that has a .02% chance of killing the dad, then the dad isn't allowed to murder the kid to spare him the risk of death", the argument is correct, but only because there is a consented risk.  If the Dad didn't want to be at risk for the illness, then he just maintains social distancing from his kid.  If he doesn't want to ever be around his kid, then he should set the kid up for adoption.

Parents being around kids with a .02% chance of having a deadly illness consented to that risk, otherwise they would just not have the kid.  Unwanted pregnancy is not a consented risk.

Because of this, abortion should be legal until the moment of birth, because there is no time where you get prosecuted by the state for failing to take a risk to your life.

Is consent to sex consent to pregnancy? And what are the implications of this?
You make the point that in your scenario, your Dad can't kill you because he consented to your risk. So let's say that your dad keeps his canoe covered (idk man I don't have a canoe), kind of like using birth control, but you sneak on board anyways (birth control fails). Did he consent to the risk of you even if he covered his canoe? 

You say that unwanted pregnancy is not a consented risk. But you can't give consent to something that's a biological process, like pregnancy. If I have sex with someone who has an STD, I can't say that I consented to only having sex and not getting an STD. If I eat cake at every meal, I can't say that I consented to only eating cake and not gaining weight. 

And if you took an action which you knew would make somebody dependent on you, and they are now dependent on you, you are responsible for their wellbeing. If you take an action which makes a kid, and you end up becoming a parent, you now have a responsibility to take care of your kid. This should include not killing them.

But what if they pose a risk to your life? 

What counts as a threat to life?
I  don't necessarily think that a 0.02% risk is arbitrary, but I also agree that we don't have concrete thresholds for what counts as arbitrary. I think it ultimately depends on the moral status of the fetus.

Maternal mortality and SMM consists of many factors. For example, morning sickness has the potential to turn into HG, which is life-threatening to the mother and child. But threat-to-life exceptions don't include morning sickness, they include HG, even though morning sickness has the potential to turn into HG. Let's say that this potential is 0.02%. 

There's a pregnant woman who is experiencing morning sickness. We have two options: abort (the violent action) and end morning sickness, or give anti-nausea pills (the non-violent action) which could also end morning sickness. What should we do?

0.02% chance of death may seem arbitrary, but it's far closer to 0 than to 100. Pro-lifers care about the kid and the woman, so if we can use methods which aren't abortion to alleviate morning sickness, we should take that route. Although abortion would be a finite solution, if we are interested in protecting our children, we don't take finite violent action until we are absolutely sure that we cannot do anything else to save their parents. 

Let's say that the pregnant woman is diagnosed with HG and her risk to life chance rises to 60%. Also may seem arbitrary, but far closer to 100 than 0. Pro-lifers care about the kid, but we also care about the woman, so abortion is considered. 

Doctors take the Hippocratic Oath, which dictates that it is necessary to save both patients, so breaching this when they know based on past recorded experiences, gut feelings, and data that they do not have to kill one patient to save another would be wrong. If we value both mother and child, then we should only target the unborn child when we know with almost 100%  certainty based on past medical experiences that we cannot do anything else.


TheUnderdog
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@rodh7
So let's say that your dad keeps his canoe covered (idk man I don't have a canoe), kind of like using birth control, but you sneak on board anyways (birth control fails). Did he consent to the risk of you even if he covered his canoe? 
Yes, because if he didn’t want to take the chance of you climbing into his canoe, then he shouldn’t have raised you.  Kids make mistakes and the risk for mistakes are accepted when you become a parent.

If I have sex with someone who has an STD, I can't say that I consented to only having sex and not getting an STD. If I eat cake at every meal, I can't say that I consented to only eating cake and not gaining weight.
You might have a point, but this is different because everyone believes it is ok to kill an STD and to kill obesity by losing weight.  But at the same time, no human being gets harmed with this treatment; people get harmed from the abortion treatment, but you should be allowed to get treatment if abortion didn’t kill a human being, but the converse of (if abortion doesn’t kill a human being, then abortion should be legal) isn’t necessarily true or false.

There's a pregnant woman who is experiencing morning sickness. We have two options: abort (the violent action) and end morning sickness, or give anti-nausea pills (the non-violent action) which could also end morning sickness. What should we do?
I would prefer the ladder if there was a 0% chance the mother would die without an abortion.  But you are never 100% sure, and you probably can set arbitrary guidelines (the DUI limit being .08% is arbitrary and society is ok with it).  I don’t know what HG is.

I would say though that I changed my stance on abortion; ban it unless a 1% chance or higher the woman dies without one; I accept being arbitrary is fine based on other arbitrary criteria (legal limit for DUI).