Age of consent

Author: TheUnderdog

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#1
TheUnderdog
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What is your ideal age of consent?  I’m just getting a poll.  If Korea doesn’t respond, then it’s understandable because he would get banned if he said his honest answer.

Europe has really low ages of consent and nobody calls it pedophillia, so I think America can largely copy what Europe is doing.

#2
zedvictor4
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@TheUnderdog
Male, female or other?
#3
Savant
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@TheUnderdog
Europe has really low ages of consent and nobody calls it pedophillia
If a 35-year-old in France has sex with a 15-year-old, they will be called a pedophile by like 90% of people there. Why those same 90% of people don't make a law against it I don't really understand.
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#4
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@zedvictor4
Irrespective of gender.
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#5
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@Savant
If a 35-year-old in France has sex with a 15-year-old, they will be called a pedophile by like 90% of people there.
I don’t think that’s true.  I’ve met people in my life who have said the age of consent should be 13 but not lower.
#6
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@TheUnderdog
What if two twelve year olds mutually consented?
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#7
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@zedvictor4
Then neither one of them are pedophilles.
#8
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@TheUnderdog
I’ve met people in my life who have said the age of consent should be 13 but not lower.
When I encounter people who say that, they are usually under the impression that age of consent only determines when you can have sex with other people your age. If you actually poll people on whether a 35-year-old should be allowed to have sex with a 15-year-old, the majority answer will be "no" in most Western countries. People simply don't know or don't care about age of consent laws until one is broken, then they say "why isn't there a law against this???"

Ages of consent in the US aren't much higher than in Europe, but the general attitude is the same.
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#9
TheUnderdog
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@Savant
If you actually poll people on whether a 35-year-old should be allowed to have sex with a 15-year-old, the majority answer will be "no" in most Western countries.
The same would be true for a 63 year old and a 19 year old.

If the sole issue is that young people can’t consent, then it wouldn’t matter how old the older person was.  If a 13 year old is too young to consent, then that applies equally to sex with the 35 year old and sex with the 14 year old.  If a 17 year old can consent, then that applies to sex with the 18 year old as much as the 20 year old.
#10
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@TheUnderdog
So is this thread about the paedophilia concept.

Or more so, seedy men taking advantage of girls or boys who are below a legally specified age.

I expect that seedy women are rarely considered.

Paedophilia is essentially a socio-legal response to a contrived moral judgement.

Realistically humans can breed once they become fertile.

I wonder how many times per day age of consent laws are ignored.
#11
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@TheUnderdog
The same would be true for a 63 year old and a 19 year old.
With that one I think you might get a majority response of "it should be legal but it's still not moral." But you may be correct, and I think it shows that what brings people to the polls is not always what they say they want. I'm mostly just responding to your comment of "nobody calls it pedophillia"—even if crowdsourcing was reliable, it's not very consistent.

If the sole issue is that young people can’t consent, then it wouldn’t matter how old the older person was.
I think what most people object to is a perceived power dynamic between a 35-year-old and a 14-year-old. We could try and measure that empirically, but it would require having a control group of 14-year-olds having sex with each other and then an experimental group of 35-year-olds having sex with 14-year-olds. Most people would have obvious moral concerns with running such an experiment.

If we really want to test how maturity correlates with age and the resulting effects on society, it would be safer to start with some other thing. Create a children's parliament where 14-year-olds can vote for people, and measure how successful it is. Lower the age at which minors can drive with an adult in the car. Study how easily emancipated minors get scammed by adults.
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#12
TheUnderdog
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@Savant
I think what most people object to is a perceived power dynamic between a 35-year-old and a 14-year-old. 
Consider 2 hypothetical relationships:

1. Elon Musk and a broke 18 year old girl.
2. Broke 20 year old girl and broke 17 year old guy.

The first relationship has a much bigger power imbalance but that is the only relationship where it is legal for it to be sexual.

This is why I don’t like the, “power imbalance” argument.

Create a children's parliament where 14-year-olds can vote for people
This will bring disproportionately more democrat votes; Id rather not (same reason why I don’t want to raise the voting age to 21).

Lower the age at which minors can drive with an adult in the car.
I think you need to be able to pass the driving test to get to drive legally.  Virtually no 8 year olds will pass the test, but the few that are able to I think should be allowed to drive.


#13
Best.Korea
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@TheUnderdog
What is your ideal age of consent?  I’m just getting a poll.  If Korea doesn’t respond, then it’s understandable because he would get banned if he said his honest answer.
My honest answer is that it doesnt matter what I say, even tho age of consent at 18 is a crime against nature and you are basically calling most of your ancestors idiots. 

However, thanks to "educated people", we are only going to see an increase in the age of consent.

Its kinda like the unwritten law now that age of consent, once established, can only increase or stay same.

But if society wants to ruin its mental health and birth rates by introducing such a retarded law, who am I to stop them?

Its not like me arguing about it would change something. People have been brainwashed into an opinion which wont stop at mere age of consent laws.

They have actually declared that children cant make choices, which gives excuse to parents to treat children as property, which is not going to help in producing children who are smart, since to be smart, you actually have to make choices and not be reduced to mere property level which doesnt have will.
#14
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@TheUnderdog
The first relationship has a much bigger power imbalance but that is the only relationship where it is legal for it to be sexual
This is largely because age-of-consent laws, like most age restrictions, are meant to cover general cases, not edge cases. The aim is to reduce overall coercion; I don't think they could even hope to eliminate it entirely. Note that even if we lower the age to 13 or something, we'd still have the same hypothetical of Elon and a 14-year old vs a random 35-yr-old and a 13-yr-old. Add that most people don't know or care much about the nuances of age-of-consent laws, and we're left with an imperfect system that is hopefully better than nothing.

I think you need to be able to pass the driving test to get to drive legally.
I think some 12-year-olds would probably pass. And you only need to pass a written test to drive with an adult. It's at least a step toward seeing how minors can handle responsibility.
#15
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@Savant
It's a useless concept with humans. One year olds can make their wishes clear and many can do it linguistically.

There is no such thing as an age of consent. There is an age arbitrarily chosen by society below which consent is insufficient.

Insufficient for what? That's complicated. Asking this question doesn't make it any less so.

As Savant said "power imbalance" is much closer to what people actually care about but they have no way to formalize those ethics so they stick with a bunch of legal fiction.

I don't care about power imbalance, I care about rational ethics for which power imbalance is at best a nearly-useless proxy. For example parents are far more powerful than children but humans are genetically programmed to try and maximize the children's chances of having a successful life and few stray from this programming.

Rules with exceptions aren't rules and generalizations with tons of exceptions aren't useful.
#16
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But one good thing might come from age of consent laws. Apparently, its impossible to explain how circumcision of infants fits into "consent" logic.

Like really, its illegal to force an adult to get circumcised, but at the same time legal to force that same adult to get circumcised by simply circumcising him as an infant, before he becomes adult. 

Yeah, good luck making sense out of that.
#17
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18 is fine, but the law should permit nuance.
A 19 year old dating a 17 year old shouldn't land either of them in legal trouble, and the consequences for a 20 year old dating a 17 year old shouldn't be that overly harsh (or at least not for a first offence). The older the adult, and the younger the minor, the more strict enforcement ought to be. Most people, I think, would call this a common sense approach.
#18
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@Savant
 a 35-year-old in France has sex with a 15-year-old, they will be called a pedophile by like 90% of people there
You don't know French people
#19
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@Swagnarok
Common sense?

Just sleazy thoughts relative to the age old human penis vagina angst thing.

Which isn't to say that such behaviour hasn't evolved into a working system.

 Wherein we are compelled to overrule the base reality of biological processes and function.

Which to our astonishment, often leads to a breakdown in the system.

Not sure if that equates to common sense.

Or just another consequence of human overthink.


Next...Men will be having their dicks removed and referring to themselves as Penelope.

When all that they actually need do is masturbate once or twice a day.

Common sense indeed.

I blame the breakdown in the hunter gatherer system.

That, or something in the water.


HUMANS ARE BRILLIANT.

#20
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@Dr.Franklin
You don't know French people
Agreed lol. The French gave harbor to Roman Polanski, so I doubt they take issue with that kind of thing.
#21
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@TheUnderdog
Age of consent for sex with anybody are you asking?
#22
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@Mall
at least 30

maybe 35
#23
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@3RU7AL
I'd wait till 135, just to be safe.
#24
Best.Korea
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"Children cant consent"

So is circumcising infants okay?

"Yes, because it benefits them"

So if something benefits a person, that person's consent doesnt matter?

So forcing adults to get circumcised is okay, because it benefits them?

So in the end, consent doesnt matter as long as something benefits a person?

I dont see why the very people who support consent laws have no problem with violating infant's consent when it comes to circumcision.

So they are saying how consent doesnt actually matter, so making consent as argument is pointless.
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#25
TheUnderdog
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@Savant
Note that even if we lower the age to 13 or something, we'd still have the same hypothetical of Elon and a 14-year old vs a random 35-yr-old and a 13-yr-old. 
If the age of consent is 13, then Elon Musk being into a 14 year old wouldn’t be pedophillia.

And you only need to pass a written test to drive with an adult. It's at least a step toward seeing how minors can handle responsibility.
Yeah; I think minors should handle more responsibility.  I don’t like coddling kids.
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#26
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@Mall
Yes.
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#27
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@Best.Korea
So if something benefits a person, that person's consent doesnt matter?
If it’s a young child, then correct.  But sex doesn’t benefit 4 year olds; they get addicted pretty quickly (I believe sex is addictive).
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#28
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@Swagnarok
The older the adult, and the younger the minor, the more strict enforcement ought to be. Most people, I think, would call this a common sense approach.
If the issue is children’s consent, then why would the age of the adult matter?
#29
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Age of consent, imho, should be based on gender.

For Boys, 9 is pretty much ok. 

For girls, 15 is fine. This is when they turn into women judging by the "sweet 15" event (I guess in the US is sweet 16).

Case closed. 
#30
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@TheUnderdog
If it’s a young child, then correct
So consent of children doesnt matter, which means its pointless to bring up consent as an argument in the first place, since your argument is not even based on consent at all.

Your argument is based on "benefits" which can be forced on children but not on adults.

However, forcing "benefits" on children also forces "benefits" on adults, since children become adults and the "benefits" affect them as adults.

So you are still forcing benefits on adults.

So if you think its okay to force benefits on adults, then you agree that it is okay to force adults to get circumcised, vaccinated, to wear masks...ect.