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3RU7AL
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once upon a time several families all lived in an old apartment building

this building had been built a long time ago and the families handed down their apartments to their children

a few of them sold their apartments to a group of newcomers

one day the landlord told everyone they were no longer going to manage the building and everyone would own the apartments they lived in and they would have to manage the building together

and to everyone's surprise

on the same day the old landlord left, several of the newcomers declared themselves the new owners of the building

the majority of the tenants were unhappy about this

but the new self-declared owners had stockpiled weapons and were "recognized" by a powerful neighbor as the official new owners

and rather predictably at that point

the legacy tenants tried to throw out the newcomers

a group of neighbors wrote an opinion about how the building should be split roughly in half

but the legacy tenants would not agree to give up half the building to the presumptuous newcomers who simply declared themselves the new owners of everything
FLRW
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The Jordan River is a winding, 200-plus-mile run on the eastern flank of Israel and the occupied West Bank. The sea is the glittering Mediterranean to its west.
But a phrase about the space in between, “from the river to the sea,” has become a battle cry with new power to roil Jews and pro-Palestinian activists in the aftermath of Hamas’ deadly rampage across southern Israel Oct. 7 and Israel’s bombardment of the Gaza Strip.
“From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free,” pro-Palestinian activists from London to Rome and Washington chanted in the volatile aftermath of Israel’s bloodiest day. Adopting or defending it can be costly for public figures, such as U.S. Rep. Rashida Tlaib, who was censured by the House in 2023.
But like so much of the Mideast conflict, what the phrase means depends on who is telling the story — and which audience is hearing it.
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@3RU7AL
@FLRW
Palestine was offered a choice to give majority of its land to Jews. 

Why would they refuse to give majority of their land to Jews?

Native Americans agreed to give 99% of their land to European invaders, after European invaders killed most of Native Americans.

Why would Native Americans willingly give up 99% of their land?

History told by the white person or Jew can only be believed by a white person or Jew.
3RU7AL
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@Best.Korea
Native Americans agreed to give 99% of their land to European invaders, after European invaders killed most of Native Americans.

bingo
ADreamOfLiberty
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@Best.Korea
after European invaders killed most of Native Americans.
This is false.
3RU7AL
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@ADreamOfLiberty
This is false.
ok, i guess that whole "manifest destiny" thing was just a misunderstanding

and the smallpox situation was simply "god's will"


European settlers killed 56 million indigenous people over about 100 years in South, Central and North America, causing large swaths of farmland to be abandoned and reforested, researchers at University College London, or UCL, estimate. [[LINK]]
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@3RU7AL
and the smallpox situation was simply "god's will"
Contagious diseases are not homicide.


European settlers killed 56 million indigenous people over about 100 years in South, Central and North America, causing large swaths of farmland to be abandoned and reforested, researchers at University College London, or UCL, estimate. [[LINK]]
Bullshit.


Contains no historical citations or any other scientific means to estimate the number of european on native homocides at any point over any period in any region.

Disinformation debunked. Next time do not trust propagandists.
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after European invaders killed most of Native Americans.
This is false.
You are right. Native Americans died on their own, and the remaining ones decided to donate 99% of their land to Europeans.

Lol
FLRW
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Native Americans were subjected to many different forms of violence, all with the intention of destroying the community. In the late 1800s, blankets from smallpox patients were distributed to Native Americans in order to spread disease. There were several wars, and violence was encouraged; for example, European settlers were paid for each Penobscot person they killed. In the 19th century, 4,000 Cherokee people died on the Trail of Tears, a forced march from the southern U.S. to Oklahoma. In the 20th century, civil rights violations were common.
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Contagious diseases are not homicide
Exactly. Can you go to any country and bring in dangerous viruses and just spread them around?
3RU7AL
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In addition to the deadly impact of diseases, wars, and genocide, Thornton hasemphasized that many Indigenous nations in what is today the United States were“removed, relocated, dispersed, concentrated, or forced to migrate at least once aftercontact with Europeans or Americans.”47 And he has observed that the forced removal ofover 100,000 Indigenous people to areas west of the Mississippi River during the first halfof the nineteenth century directly resulted in significant loss of life.48 Moreover, suchremovals and relocations destroyed Indigenous people’s ways of life, which resulted insubstantial additional loss of life.49 [[LINK]]
3RU7AL
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FLRW
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Starting his reign in 1503, Pope Julius II was known for being domineering, hot-headed, and a manic at times. But by far his worst feature was his severe case of Syphilis, contracting it via prostitutes. It was documented that on Good Friday, his feet were so covered by sores that no one was able to kiss them.
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@FLRW
Starting his reign in 1503, Pope Julius II was known for being domineering, hot-headed, and a manic at times. But by far his worst feature was his severe case of Syphilis, contracting it via prostitutes. It was documented that on Good Friday, his feet were so covered by sores that no one was able to kiss them.
Cunning native american counter-genocide I presume.

ADreamOfLiberty
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@3RU7AL
If you want to debate something be specific about your claim.

This claim:
European settlers killed 56 million indigenous people over about 100 years
Is debunked as baseless.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
No such thing as an indigene anyway.

Just previous settlers.

Same as the Middle East.

Variously similar people milling about for millennia.

Just start the Nationhood clock wherever it takes your fancy.

And create accompanying cultural BS to suit.

Clever stupid gene.


3RU7AL
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Is debunked as baseless.
of course it is, because you personally decided
3RU7AL
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@zedvictor4
Just previous settlers.

PRIMAL ETHICS

(1) PROTECT YOURSELF
(2) PROTECT YOUR FAMILY
(3) PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY

ADreamOfLiberty
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Is debunked as baseless.
of course it is, because you personally decided
Because CNN's assertion was not supported by their link.

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@zedvictor4
No such thing as an indigene anyway.

Just previous settlers.
Logically there must have been a first, even if it was a homo cousin we wouldn't recognize anymore.

First or not, murder and theft are wrong.

I don't find claims of land belonging to gene groups to be convincing or even interesting; but lying about mass murder is a problem. Those who call squabbles over land "genocide" cheapen the word.
3RU7AL
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@ADreamOfLiberty
During the siege of British-held Fort Pitt in the Seven Years' War, Colonel Henry Bouquet ordered his men to take smallpox-infested blankets from their hospital and gave them as gifts to two neutral Lenape Indian dignitaries during a peace settlement negotiation, according to the entry in the Captain's ledger, "To convey the Smallpox to the Indians".[146][154][155] In the following weeks, Sir Jeffrey Amherst conspired with Bouquet to "Extirpate this Execreble Race" of Native Americans, writing, "Could it not be contrived to send the small pox among the disaffected tribes of Indians? We must on this occasion use every stratagem in our power to reduce them." His Colonel agreed to try.[145][154]

Most scholars have asserted that the 1837 Great Plains smallpox epidemic was "started among the tribes of the upper Missouri River by failure to quarantine steamboats on the river",[148] and Captain Pratt of the St. Peter "was guilty of contributing to the deaths of thousands of innocent people. The law calls his offense criminal negligence. Yet in light of all the deaths, the almost complete annihilation of the Mandans, and the terrible suffering the region endured, the label criminal negligence is benign, hardly befitting an action that had such horrendous consequences."[152] However, some sources attribute the 1836–40 epidemic to the deliberate communication of smallpox to Native Americans, with historian Ann F. Ramenofsky writing, "Variola Major can be transmitted through contaminated articles such as clothing or blankets. In the nineteenth century, the U. S. Army sent contaminated blankets to Native Americans, especially Plains groups, to control the Indian problem."[156] In Brazil, well into the 20th century, deliberate infection attacks continued as Brazilian settlers and miners transported infections intentionally to the native groups whose lands they coveted.[143] [[LINK]]

56 million died as a direct consequence of contact with europeans

the europeans new well enough that diseases like smallpox were contagious - everyone knew this

there is no shortage of data detailing the dehumanization rhetoric of the invaders

and there can be no doubt that many of them were killed by person to person violence

some estimates are 10 million

but even it it was "only" 6 million

or maybe even 2 million

it doesn't really change the equation
ADreamOfLiberty
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@3RU7AL
56 million died as a direct consequence of contact with europeans
That is a different claim than "killed", it is still probably false but I won't commit to debate that until you admit that "direct consequence" is not the same as "killing".

I will post this from my initial attempt to trace sources:

colonists certainly would have liked to wage such a war and did talk about giving infected blankets and such to the indigenes, and they may even have done so a few times, but by and large the legend is just that, a legend. Before the development of modern bacteriology at the end of the 1 9'h century, dis-eases did not come in ampoules, and there were no refrigerators in which to store the ampoules.... As for infected blankets, they might or might notwork. Furthermore, and most important, the intentionally transmitted dis-ease might swing back on the white population.... These people were dedicated to quarantining smallpox, not to spreading it.3

On July 22, about a month after the deceptive gift, Trent wrote in his journal: "Gray Eyes, Wingenum, Turtle's Heart and Mamaultee, came over the River told us their Chiefs were in Council, that they waited for Custalugawho they expected that Day."' This entry, which is ignored over and over again in historical accounts, shows both recipients of the soiled material alive and well-smallpox should have hit them by that time.
This illustrates the silliness of acting like a few isolated instances of biological warfare (and indeed it was in a time of war) were the downfall of millions of people.

The key information is that the time of the siege of Fort Pitt was long after contact, a century after all those people supposedly died. Natives and settlers were in near constant contact at this time. They traded constantly, they employed each other, they married each other, they traveled together, and lodged with each other.

Nobody was following effective quarantine measures (kinda like covid lockdowns) and the spread of every disease was inevitable under those circumstances. If every other war somebody tried to spread a disease intentionally it may or may not succeed (in this case it apparently failed), but that's a drop in the bucket at this point in history.

The natives who lived or died because of disease would have lived or died regardless when there were so many vectors.


It's not like diseases only killed one race:
"Neither Amherstnor Bouquet actually tried germ warfare. The attempt to disseminate small-pox took place at Fort Pitt independent of both of them.Smallpox and the Indians were a dangerous and unhappy combination.In 1773 George Croghan, who handled Indian affairs at Fort Pitt, commented that "the Small pox itts very fatal to them and allways will be, Till they become Civilised, as Till then they Cant be brought to keep themselves Warm, and adopt Such meshurs as is Necessary in that Disorder." Croghan's observationis a criticism of how Indians dealt with fevers and diseases such as smallpox-hoping that a dousing with very cold water would cure them. This technique was ineffective against smallpox. For that matter, everything the British tried failed too until the development of inoculation, which involved giving a patient a weak case of smallpox so that the full power of the disease would be avoided. However, even inoculation sometimes proved fatal and it remained controversial among the colonists. A few years after the Fort Pitt episode,rioting against inoculation rocked Norfolk, Virginia; that colony soon severely limited the procedure. During the French and Indian War, smallpox attacked both the Delaware Indians and the colonists of Pennsylvania."


and there can be no doubt that many of them were killed by person to person violence

some estimates are 10 million

but even it it was "only" 6 million

or maybe even 2 million
2 million is still a very high estimate.


it doesn't really change the equation
What equation would that be?

56 million >>> 2 million and two million people being killed in war or self-defense is not genocide
3RU7AL
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@ADreamOfLiberty
2 million and two million people being killed in war or self-defense is not genocide
good to know
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@3RU7AL
Human beings are not countries.  Humans control territory that is privately owned.  Countries don't own territory in the same context.

If NY annexes CT, then the result will be the same as if CT annexes NY; NY residents can freely move to CT and vice versa.  If I own 2 houses, that is totally different to someone else owning those 2 houses.

A one world nation lets everyone travel and move to any part of the world that they please.  If Israel annexes Palestine, then the effect would be the same as if Palestine annexes Israel.

Fighting over borders is just an excuse for politicians to start wars that kill people and steal taxpayer money all in the name of power.

A one world nation with one world language ends the need for war.
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@TheUnderdog
Human beings are not countries.  Humans control territory that is privately owned.  Countries don't own territory in the same context.
government sets the property tax and can evict you for failure to pay property tax (essentially rent)

also

they can declare eminent domain for basically any reason the wish


when the united states absorbed the indian territories, they killed and corralled the natives
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@TheUnderdog
A one world nation with one world language ends the need for war.
great idea, how do we start that ?
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@TheUnderdog
A one world nation with one world language ends the need for war.
Only if it had perfect laws that were perfectly enforced.
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@3RU7AL
government sets the property tax and can evict you for failure to pay property tax (essentially rent)
But whether that government is the Israeli government or the Palestinian government, assuming the property tax is the same, if you are the normal person living in this area, then why would you care?  Governments (in a democracy) are owned by the people.  The only difference between Israel and Palestine (assuming one state solution) would be the flag; both places would be roughly half Jewish half Muslim.

when the united states absorbed the indian territories, they killed and corralled the natives
This is because the ratio of Whites to Natives was very high towards the white side.  If Natives made up the majority on this continent, then it would be like Australia trying to absorb Indonesia by annexing them.

great idea, how do we start that ?
Every country becomes a state in the United Nations of Earth and gets treated like a state (except for very big countries by size or population that would be broken up into several states).  The countries that would get broken up are below:


You would need an electoral college to determine representation in government.  People can freely move wherever they want, practice whatever religion they want, English is the sole official language and the entire world's children are bilingually immersed in English and the Native language.  English isn't even called English; it's called L1 (the document below expains it better than I can on the spot):



Let me know if there is anything you would like to add to it.


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@ADreamOfLiberty
Nobody will think every law is perfect, but the laws should be a lot better than the status quo in a few respects (like no need for massive bureaucratic waste on the military if the whole world is one nation because wars over territory wouldn't exist anymore).
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@TheUnderdog
Nobody will think every law is perfect
but if they were perfect and were perfectly enforced then no one would have a legitimate cause to make war on the government or other citizens.


like no need for massive bureaucratic waste on the military if the whole world is one nation because wars over territory wouldn't exist anymore
There is no need now, and they would still find plenty of excuses for huge bureaucratic waste that doesn't involve massive conventional warfare, just as they do right now.


Governments (in a democracy) are owned by the people.  The only difference between Israel and Palestine (assuming one state solution) would be the flag; both places would be roughly half Jewish half Muslim.
Neither are perfect democracies, Israel is much more democratic, and there is nothing in the concept of democracy that prevents genocide.

Just like the Taliban are playing dress up and dotting their Ts Hamas could be all formal about it and then start rounding up all dissenters for the gas chambers.