I can't.
Can we comprehend God?
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44
Can you understand the meaning of the word God?
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@Fallaneze
no i cant
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@janesix
How can something meaningless exist?
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@Fallaneze
I didn't say that.
Other people might understand the "meaning" of the word God. I know almost nothing about God.
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@janesix
Do you think God exists?
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@Fallaneze
Yes
Do you?
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@janesix
Yes but we need to understand the meaning of the term God before believing. If we can't understand the meaning of something, like "Garpokdalp", we can't say we believe that Garpokdalp exists.
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@janesix
We comprehend Him in three ways that I know of, to the extent that He has revealed Himself in what has been made (the creation/universe), by His written revelation of Himself (the Bible), and via His Son and His Spirit. The Son and Spirit speak from their consciousness to ours. The third would be akin to me knowing you to the extent that you express yourself to me by your thoughts through our correspondence. If you deny God the third does not manifest itself to you in an intimate way in which God confirms His presence via life situations, nor does He relay the deeper meaning of Scripture, the spiritual significance found in the OT and disclosed in the NT that points to the Son (Luke 24:44). When you deny God, you put an idol or false belief in His place and close down that intimate knowledge (Romans 1:18-26).
If you want to comprehend God, just read the Bible. God is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.
Easy peasy.
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@Goldtop
I have doubts that God is the God of the bible
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@PGA2.0
What makes you think the bible is God's word
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@Goldtop
If you want to comprehend God, just read the Bible. God is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.
Heh. Straight out of The God Delusion.
I also liked his description of the deist God.
"Compared with the Old Testament's psychotic delinquent, the deist God of the eighteen-century Enlightenment is an altogether grander being: worthy of his cosmic creation, loftily unconcerned with human affairs, sublimely aloof from our private thoughts and hopes, caring nothing for our messy sins or mumbled contritions.
The deist God is a physicist to end all physics, the alpha and omega of mathematicians, the apotheosis of designers; a hyper-engineer who set up the laws and constants of the universe, fine-turned them with exquisite precision and foreknowledge, detonated what we would now call the hot big bang, retired and was never heard from again."
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@janesix
Reason and logic.
Its words give reasons that very often can be confirmed to a reasonable degree.
It makes sense were as other worldviews do not.
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@janesix
God has always been presented to me as beyond my comprehension. So no, I obviously cannot comprehend what is beyond my comprehension.
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@Goldtop
@PGA2.0
@PGA2.0 Pretty good answer. In theory, the comprehension would come from contemplation of the word, which makes it personally interpretative, which makes it inconsistent being that personal interpretation is subjective, which explains the hundreds of different Christian denominations, which out right proves that if God indeed guided the hands of the authors of the bible, then he's either full of shit, or he's very, very imperfect.
@Goldtop Probably the absolute best description of the Christian god I've ever read, though you didn't actually answer his question.
I conclude that PGA's answer was the best.
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@janesix
Jane, I have doubts of what anyone past, present or future would say about any gods. Since Hominids began to evolve, their brains tripled in size and peaked about a half million years ago, self awareness and their own mortality began taking shape and continued up to the point they left Africa some 50K years ago, its been part of their psyche a long time.
If this wan't hard evidence showing the concept of gods were man made, I don't know what would be.
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@Goldtop
My sources in the past gave the impression that 500,000 years ago hominids are nearing modern tolerance, more so up into 100,000-35,000 and brain size generally "peaked" 10,000 - 20,000 ranging upwards of 30,000+ years ago. What are you using for reference?
Obviously you can't totally know God. If you did, you would know everything about everything. That is certainly beyond the capability of man.
All these atheists talk of created gods, but they can't even approach God, The Ultimate Reality, who cannot be created.
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@Mopac
Call your man made god whatever you like, it's still man made as are all gods.
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@BrutalTruth
"Pretty good answer. In theory, the comprehension would come from contemplation of the word, which makes it personally interpretative, which makes it inconsistent being that personal interpretation is subjective, which explains the hundreds of different Christian denominations, which out right proves that if God indeed guided the hands of the authors of the bible, then he's either full of shit, or he's very, very imperfect."
Thanks for the vote of confidence (I think)! (^8
While personal interpretation can be subjective there is a true meaning for correspondence to take place. You have to understand the author's meaning. To understand the Bible you have to understand what the Author/authors has/have said. Unfortunately, this is seldom done. Understanding the culture of the times, the audience of address, and the timeframe is a must. Determining the different types of language such as for instance figurative, apocalyptic, poetic, or literal narrative is also essential.
While denominationalism is a problem there is a bond between true Christians that foregoes these lines of distinction because there are essentials that cannot be compromised and a person still be a Christian.
God has given His word which is everything we need for salvation and a relationship with Him.
As for His imperfection, that is your opinion, not mine. He expresses it better than I could:
Isaiah 55:8-11
While denominationalism is a problem there is a bond between true Christians that foregoes these lines of distinction because there are essentials that cannot be compromised and a person still be a Christian.
God has given His word which is everything we need for salvation and a relationship with Him.
As for His imperfection, that is your opinion, not mine. He expresses it better than I could:
Isaiah 55:8-11
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
10 “For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
And do not return there without watering the earth
And making it bear and sprout,
And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
11 So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.
God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. They find meaning in what He says, and what He says is reasonable and logical when rightly interpreted. It all comes together and fits like an OJ glove! (^8
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@PGA2.0
Your quote really has nothing to do with being proud or humble, but I'll comment on that: There is absolutely nothing logically wrong with being proud of something. Pride is very useful. It helps us do better work, be better people, and find happiness in simple things. Why would a benevolent god shun such a thing? Your god not only shuns it, but calls it a cardinal sin! Ridiculous.
Anyway, yes of course I understand what you're saying. This is why I said you answered it best. I simply disagree with you wholly.
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@BrutalTruth
Your quote really has nothing to do with being proud or humble, but I'll comment on that: There is absolutely nothing logically wrong with being proud of something. Pride is very useful. It helps us do better work, be better people, and find happiness in simple things. Why would a benevolent god shun such a thing? Your god not only shuns it, but calls it a cardinal sin! Ridiculous.
That is not the kind of pride I'm speaking of. You speak of pride in the positive sense. I totally agree with that kind of pride. I'm speaking of pride in the negative sense, or arrogant boasting might be another way of expressing it. Pride in the negative sense puts itself first. It creates itself or something else as the idol, the thing it puts in place of God.
If you take a look at my context I said that God opposes or resists the proud, those who are arrogant and boastful; the ones who deny Him.
God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. - Me
Negative sense: James 4:6
But He gives a greater grace. Therefore it says, “God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”
You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble.
Strong's:
Definition- showing one's self above others, overtopping, conspicuous above others, pre-eminent
- with an overweening estimate of one's means or merits, despising others or even treating them with contempt, haughty
Proud, arrogant, disdainful. From huper and phaino; appearing above others, i.e. haughty.
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Positive sense: 2 Corinthians 1:14
just as you also partially did understand us, that we are your reason to be proud as you also are ours, in the day of our Lord Jesus.
Cognate: 2745 kaúxēma (a neuter noun) – boasting, focusing on the results of exulting/boasting (note the -ma suffix). This boasting (exulting) is always positive when it is in the Lord, and always negative when based on self.
therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.
The Greek words for the two kinds of pride are different.
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@PGA2.0
The Christian god himself is "prideful in the negative sense." Isn't hypocrisy a sin? I'm pretty sure it is, and in this, the Christian god is a hypocrite.
But anyway, I wouldn't call that pride at all. I wouldn't even call it arrogance, as arrogance is an exaggerated belief of one's self worth. I'd call that confidence, and again, there's nothing wrong with confidence either. If I'm the best in the world at something, believing I am and saying I am is perfectly fine. I'd say it's more sinful to say it isn't, as that implies jealousy, and jealousy is a biblical sin(but wait, the Christian god is also jealous. Hypocrisy again!).
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@BrutalTruth
The Christian god himself is "prideful in the negative sense."
How does that figure? Please explain.
Isn't hypocrisy a sin? I'm pretty sure it is, and in this, the Christian god is a hypocrite.
How does hypocrisy apply to God?
But anyway, I wouldn't call that pride at all. I wouldn't even call it arrogance, as arrogance is an exaggerated belief of one's self worth. I'd call that confidence, and again, there's nothing wrong with confidence either. If I'm the best in the world at something, believing I am and saying I am is perfectly fine.
Not following the connection in your last thought.
I'd say it's more sinful to say it isn't, as that implies jealousy, and jealousy is a biblical sin(but wait, the Christian god is also jealous. Hypocrisy again!).
Again, there is righteous jealousy and destructive jealousy. You combine the two into one. Human jealousy is usually resentful or envious over someone or something that someone has in a negative way. God's jealousy is protective jealousy and a positive for His people. He wants the best for them. Yet His permissive will allows them a choice. Since God is sovereign and has control over all things since He is the Creator of all things how can He be envious of something He already has?
"God does not envy an human being or anything that any human being possesses. God has no rivals...In the original languages in which the Bible is written, Hebrew and Greek, the words translated as "jealousy" in English do not always have negative connotations. In fact, the Greek word often translated "jealous" is zēlos, from which we get the English word "zealous," referring more to zeal and ardor rather than jealousy...Jealousy is often thought of as being a negative trait. So, many people think that the Bible's description of God as jealous means that He must be a divine hypocrite. However, this page has shown that in the original languages in which the Bible is written, the words do not have those negative definitions. Since the word used to describe the jealousy of God is not even the same word used to describe human jealousy, it is clear that the apparent contradiction is just a result of an inability of the translated language (English) to accurately reflect the original language (Hebrew). There is no slight on the character of God in the original language."
2 Corinthians 11:2 (NASB)
2 For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.
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@PGA2.0
I've just realized that we've hijacked this thread. We should probably stop.
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@BrutalTruth
Yeah, you're right. Sorry!
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@BrutalTruth
The Christian god himself is "prideful in the negative sense." Isn't hypocrisy a sin? I'm pretty sure it is, and in this, the Christian god is a hypocrite.But anyway, I wouldn't call that pride at all. I wouldn't even call it arrogance, as arrogance is an exaggerated belief of one's self worth. I'd call that confidence, and again, there's nothing wrong with confidence either. If I'm the best in the world at something, believing I am and saying I am is perfectly fine. I'd say it's more sinful to say it isn't, as that implies jealousy, and jealousy is a biblical sin(but wait, the Christian god is also jealous. Hypocrisy again!).I've just realized that we've hijacked this thread. We should probably stop.
I'll bring it back to topic then. You must be able to comprehend the Christian God to some extent, no matter how faulty that comprehension is because you have argued about Him for several posts. You understand the revelation of this God to a point, but your knowledge breaks down because you don't know Him intimately or well enough would be my contention. If Paul could say to Timothy,
"Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth,"
or in another translation to English (NIV),
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth,
And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe.
So, what he claimed as this word of truth was a work in those who believe.
Paul, who also wrote Romans believed that those who do not believe set up idols of created things to compensate for their denial of God. IOW's, they looked to the created order to explain everything. As Nancy Pearcey said in Finding Truth (and I paraphrase), those who deny God try to stuff everything into a box that is too small to hold it all and something is always left sticking out of the box.
When your finite mind builds its idol something is always left hanging out of the box of this universe because you divide the universe into a number of different idols that cannot accommodate it all.
God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts.
So, from a biblical perspective, what is the common denominator in Romans 1? I would say it is people suppressing the truth of God in exchange for an unrighteous life. Their desire is to pursue their idols over God. They want to do what feels good to them, even though the consequences are devastating (look around the world at humanity living with the idols of their minds and the inhumanity it causes when they live as if God does not exist or do not worship God as He truly is). And what does God do when they ignore Him and create for themselves idols found in the world or created order? He gives them over to there sinful desires since they no longer want to retain a knowledge of Him.
When we don't want to live with the knowledge of God, God gives us over to our own desires so we might understand our own folly. We see it every day.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires...
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts.
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.
So, we receive the consequences of our actions. When Adam chose to eat the forbidden fruit God gave him over to his own desires. He found out the consequences.
So, there is a comprehension of God to a degree. We comprehend the idea of God rather than God Himself and when we comprehend an idea we more often than not misrepresent it because we only see part of the picture or try to stuff everything into our little box and something is always left hanging out.
So, we receive the consequences of our actions. When Adam chose to eat the forbidden fruit God gave him over to his own desires. He found out the consequences.
So, there is a comprehension of God to a degree. We comprehend the idea of God rather than God Himself and when we comprehend an idea we more often than not misrepresent it because we only see part of the picture or try to stuff everything into our little box and something is always left hanging out.