Fascism as an ideology option in user profile

Author: Castin

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#1
Castin
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triangle.128k and I were discussing this in the incorrect grammar and spelling thread, and I didn't want to derail it.

Conversation history:

triangle.128k: Add fascism as a political ideology
Castin: You probably understand why an admin might not be too eager to do that.
triangle.128k: Why not? Communism is added as a political ideology.
Castin: That's true. But I think even communism doesn't have as many bad associations as fascism. My guess would be that D doesn't want it to look like he's supporting fascism (or National Socialism, as you also requested) by offering them as legitimate options on his site. I could be dumbass wrong, though.
triangle.128k: How are you suppoorting any specific ideology to include it? Your feelings toward an ideology don't matter, it's still legitimate and deserves a place in an ideology drop-down. Is DebateArt supporting Communism to include it in an ideological drop down? That same logic would apply. Fascism may have bad associations, but this is a debate website. 
Castin: I think it's that if you include fascism or Nazism in the dropdown menu, you're saying, "These are all valid choices. Pick." It is indeed a debate site. I don't know, maybe you can talk to D and get him to think about it. It's his call.
triangle.128k: Maybe not Nazism, but if you're going to include the ideology of Pol "Crush Baby skulls for Fertilizer" Pot, why is Fascism so big and scary to add? 
@trian:

I get where you're coming from. And by raw kill count, communism beats fascism. But this is how I see it:

  • Communism is a much larger and more varied overarching ideology with many more branches and forms, all of varying degrees of merit, some of which even have opposing ideas.
  • While communist regimes have often become monstrous, communism as an ideology originally focused on the values of equality, liberation for the working class, and sharing without discrimination. Fascism focused on the values of totalitarian power and fanatic nationalism.
  • There are over 1 billion communists in the world today. How many fascists are there? Policy decisions are based on how many people can be a pain in the ass for you right now.
Again, just how I see it. I have no idea what Michael's reasons are. Maybe you could ask him to replace the dropdown list with a blank input field we can type anything into. Although that would probably lead to a lot of users with ideologies like "bewbs" and "420".
#2
vagabond
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I've been around a while and I've never seen a communist regime. Maybe an Israeli Kibbutz but that isn't nationwide.
#3
triangle.128k
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@Castin
I get where you're coming from. And by raw kill count, communism beats fascism. But this is how I see it:
Yes, that's how YOU see it. You're a progressive, and by nature you would see "radical left" ideology as preferrable to "radical right" ideology. Excluding an ideology based on your feelings towards it is not a legitimate argument. As a fascist, I see Progressivism and Communism as the worst of ideologies. Does that mean I believe it should be excluded? No. 

Communism is a much larger and more varied overarching ideology with many more branches and forms, all of varying degrees of merit, some of which even have opposing ideas.
No it isn't. You simply know more about communism than Fascism, and can spot more differences between variants based on your left wing worldview. There's many different types of Fascism such as Integralism, Falagnism, Classical, Clerical, etc.

Anyways, I don't want to derail this thread into a defense of Fascism - that's what the politics forum is for. 


While communist regimes have often become monstrous, communism as an ideology originally focused on the values of equality, liberation for the working class, and sharing without discrimination. Fascism focused on the values of totalitarian power and fanatic nationalism.

There are over 1 billion communists in the world today. How many fascists are there? Policy decisions are based on how many people can be a pain in the ass for you right now. 

Again, just how I see it. I have no idea what Michael's reasons are. Maybe you could ask him to replace the dropdown list with a blank input field we can type anything into. Although that would probably lead to a lot of users with ideologies like "bewbs" and "420".
Yeah, that's how you see it. Your argument supports the exclusion of Fascism based on your personal feelings towards it. That's not a valid argument. 

Anyways, I do believe that a custom input field for an ideology is a good idea. Trolling can happen anywhere. 



#4
triangle.128k
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Anyways, I talked to the creator (forgot his name) of the website about this. He claimed that Russia's government suppresses Fascism and doing so would get him into trouble. I have doubts about that, but that's understandable. I don't want him to get in legal trouble.

As of now, I'll simply use the "About me" or whatever to indicate my ideology.

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#5
Castin
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Lulz.

"That's how I see it."
"That's how you see it."
"That's how I see it."
"That's how YOU see it."

We got an echo in here or something.

Don't know how you're gonna debate people if you expect them to not talk about how they see things, but I wasn't arguing for fascism to be excluded. I'd be quite fine with sharing space with it in the dropdown options, which is why I said "maybe you could talk him into it" twice. I was just speculating about the factors I thought may have been behind it. Sounds like it turned out to be a different version of guess #3. Avoidance of pain in the ass. Ah, pain in the ass. Is there any system or institution where you are not a motivator of Galactus proportion.
#6
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@Castin
I wasn't quite sure if you were making a case against it or were reasoning as to why he might not have included it, so my bad. 

Oh well, guess it's not being added (Thanks Putin!) 
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#7
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@triangle.128k
Eh, I reread the OP and yeah, "this is how I see it" sounds like "this is why I agree with its exclusion". For future reference though, I try to be relaxed and tolerant about free speech, up to and including controversy and wild eccentricity. Bitching about more options in user profiles just ain't my style.

See, I immediately wanted to ask you as a fascist what you think of the frequent accusations that Putin is a fascist. But I had to restrain myself cuz this is not the place for it. I srsly need to get to the politics forum and open some threads along that line to sink my teeth into.
#8
Type1
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1) There has never been a communist country. Communism is characterized by the fact that the means of production are meant to be held in common by the community (i.e the proletariat/workers) rather than being centralized and consolidated in the hands of a state as is the case with all "communist" countries.

2) Fascism SHOULD be included in the available options for political ideologies because:
A) There are Fascists who might join the site
B) The people with the most contemptible views are often the most fun to debate
C) If you don't put every option there that you can, you are a big fat sissy.

3) It is worth noting that Fascism is a far-right ideology and the exact polar opposite of socialism/communism. The more conservative you are, the closer to being a Nazi you are.

4) If you disagree with me you're a neo-nazi halfwit idiot.

#9
Buddamoose
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@Castin
Communism is a much larger and more varied overarching ideology with many more branches and forms, all of varying degrees of merit, some of which even have opposing ideas.
As does Facism have many variants. 

Communism as an ideology originally focused on the values of 
  • equality
  • liberation for the working class
  • sharing without discrimination.
Fascism focused on the values of
  • totalitarian power 
  • fanatic nationalism
No, that is what the Facism has come to be primarily associated with. Facism as "originally" espoused, only differentiated from Communism in its focus on National Identity and Totalitarian Power of the State as a necessity to achieving that equality. Well, equality for the chosen superior identity 🙃. 

So as you tried to establish with "sharing without discrimination" that is what you view as the distinctive characteristic that differentiates Communism as ok, and Facism as not? 

Communism also originally advocated for a violent revolution, in essence eliminating the wealthy and achieving suppression of the "profit motive(greed)" communally. How non-discriminatory, and how selfless of a power grab. 🙈

Inb4 "Communism is different cause it's anarchist and doesn't want a state"

Bingo, thats why the two are such enemies. But that doesn't mean one is good by consequence. 

oh, someone wants to speak with you, its the state here to remind you control requires systems to maintain control... and to remind you Communism fails to address the necessity of *active suppression* of greed post revolution indefinitely 🙃

 on could even say Facism was the logical development of thought in how you address the necessity of means to achieve the ends of indefinite suppression of greed, an inherent human characteristic, in Communism 🙃. 

#10
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tl;dr- if there is gonna be Communism as an ideology choice, there should also be Facism. 👏👏

#11
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@Buddamoose
1) tl;dr doesn't belong on a debate site. That is what lazy brats say when chatting online about fortnite and call of duty.

2) Communism is literally the precise opposite of fascism. Communism is on the extreme left and fascism is on the extreme right https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
"Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of radical authoritarian ultranationalism,[1][2] characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy,[3] which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.[4] The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I before it spread to other European countries.[4] Opposed to liberalism, Marxism and anarchism, fascism is usually placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum"

3)You are a bloody knob head.
#12
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@Type1
Communism is literally the precise opposite of fascism

In that Communism is Anarchist and Facism, total state control, yes. That doesn't mean they are precise opposites, or opposites to every degree. 

You lack historical perspective on this.

Communism, the creation of Karl Marx and Frederich Engels, was an "end-game" ideology. It held that the inevitable result of capitalism was a violent revolution(over increased disparity in wealth and living conditions) and subsequent anarchistic communal adoption of equal distribution of resources.[1]

The following are excerpts from the Communist Party Manifesto authored by Marx and Engels in 1848

The Communists turn their attention chiefly to Germany, because that country is on the eve of a bourgeois revolution... and because the bourgeois revolution in Germany will be but the prelude to an immediately following proletarian revolution.

Well it was actually Russia that such a revolution struck first, but Germany was actually well on the way to such a revolution. Indeed, oft referred to as Facists as they are, the Nazi Party had an interesting 25 point agenda that, "Combines extreme nationalism, racism and some socialist concepts."[2]

Who developed Socialism you might ask? Well none other than Karl Marx again[3]. Socialism was the means of achieving Communism globally. 

What will this new social order have to be like? Above all it will have to take the control of industry and of all branches of production out of the hands of mutually competing individuals, and instead institute a system in which all these branches of production are operated by society as a whole. it will abolish competition and replace it with association.[1]

This is derived from the Communist Manifesto itself, thats an exact description of socialism. Sprinkle in some nationalism and hatred of jews(the top 1% income quintile in Germany at the time 🙃) *oops* we got ourselves a Nazi.




#13
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*specific opposites*

You have a funny way of labeling two things that are vastly similar and differentiate in minor ways 🤔

#14
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@Buddamoose
Tl;dr (Actually I did read because I'm not a lazy twit.)

I started a debate about this, you are welcomed to accept.

Fascism and communism do not differ in "minor" ways, they differ on an absolutely fundamental level. Fascism is a society of total stratification and hierarchy and communism/socialism is a classless and egalitarian society. Furthermore the Nazis where not actually socialist in practice, they literally called themselves socialist while being the opposite. If you look at what socialism actually is, the state controlling production or running social programs has nothing to do with what socialism was meant to be. It's no different than having a corporacratic state-run monopoly and calling it a free market.

You have been addled by propaganda, as all conservatives are.
#15
Buddamoose
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Hi, its Socialism here to remind you that it was Karl Marx's answer to the issue of the lack of incentive to produce in the utopic vision of global Communism that never was to actually be as such because even in the manifesto Marx states Socialism is a necessary system needed to achieve "Communism."🙃 

Hrmmmm, a system that needs to assert totalitarian control on markets... where have i heard of that one before[2]. A system that pushes extreme identitarianism? Hrmmm, where have i heard that before. [1][2][3]. 

Nationalism is the only crucial differentiator and well, seems national identity would be a logical place to achieve the greatest amount of progress in implementing Socialism eh? Especially if, as seen by the 1930's, capitalism was raising wealth across the board... except in countries like Germany and Italy where foreign measure were crippling their economic abilities 🙈. 

And when the view boils down to rich=bad, poor = good. Its pretty easy to start pushing nationality considering there are nations who are wealthy(bourgeois), and nations who are poor(proletariat). 

To-morrow, Fascists and communists, both persecuted by the police, may arrive at an agreement, sinking their differences until the time comes to share the spoils. I realise that though there are no political affinities between us, there are plenty of intellectual affinities. Like them, we believe in the necessity for a centralised and unitary state, imposing an iron discipline on everyone, but with the difference that they reach this conclusion through the idea of class, we through the idea of the nation.

The Myth of the Nation and the Vision of Revolution, Jacob Talmon, University of California Press (1981) p. 494

Indeed, the doctrine of Facism co-authored by Benito Mussolini, with ghostwriter Giovani Gentile[4] rejects Marxism, Socialism, Individualism, etc. but on the grounds that none of them recognize the necessity of nationalism in relation to class. Facism was born from Socialism. Mussolini himself being the leader of the Socialist Party, after being a steadfast member for years, of Italy,  which morphed into the Facist party. 


So given this, the only effective difference between Facism and Communism/Socialism(two sides of the same coin) is the addition of Nationality.

Two ideologies that share every primary characteristic except Ultranationalism(Identitarian)
>Precise Opposites

Wew lad 🙃🙈

#16
Buddamoose
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communism/socialism is a classless and egalitarian society

>Bourgeois and Proletariat
>Classless

Pick one, you can't have both 🙃

The modern bourgeois society has... but established new classes, new conditions of oppression, new forms of struggle in place of the old ones.[1] (Karl Marx himself, Communist Manifesto)


*Egalitarian*

Yes, because group A commits genocide on Group B.. how egalitarian. 🙈

Boy, we're done here anyways. You call me brainwashed but you called Communism a classless ideology despite class(identity) being the focal point of the ideology.. 

Check yourself 🙃
#17
Smithereens
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wew I thought he was starting up debates left and right for the heck of it but he actually believes all of them too. rip.
#18
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@Smithereens
Idk man, trolling can never realistically be ruled out in this day and age 🤔

#19
Smithereens
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@Buddamoose
At any rate I think you whooped his arse enough in this thread here to make his trolling attempt unsuccessful if that's what he was doing lol.
#20
Buddamoose
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the state controlling production or running social programs has nothing to do with what socialism was meant to be.

I just 😂. Yes, I get that technically Marx's "Socialism" ideally involved zero "state" control and total co-operation among the proletariat regarding means of production and the distribution of what is produced. 

This just brings up the immediate issue:

address how you go about ensuring nobody strays from operating according to a communitarian/collectivist doctrine while producing. 

*Oops* The State is back, should I tell them to go away? 🤔
#21
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@Smithereens

last post = @1:10 in video

I couldnt help myself 🙈🙊🙉

#22
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@Smithereens
What if the political spectrum, as thought of in either a horizontal axis ↔or even adding a vertical axis ↕, is a spook 🤔
                         

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#23
Castin
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@Buddamoose
tl;dr- if there is gonna be Communism as an ideology choice, there should also be Facism. 👏👏
I can't tell what those emoticons are. They look like chicken nuggets wearing hair curlers to bed.

Anyway, I agree, but I don't know what you expect crying about it is gonna get us. The Authority hath spoken.

Unless you're one of those people who just likes running around in the street with a torch yellin' "FIGHT THE POWERRRR!" for the fun of it. In which case, text me the time and address. I can bring my own torch.
#24
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@Castin
It's round of applause (probably sarcastic in that context)
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#25
Castin
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@RationalMadman
No dude I'm 110% sure they're chicken nuggets wearing hair curlers to bed, think about how much sense that makes. Think about it. Mind = blown.