The Left on climate change

Author: TheUnderdog

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TheUnderdog
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The Left: Ban Coal!

Me: Why?

The Left (TL): Because the CO2 emissions are causing the planet to warm.

Me: By how much?

TL: .02 degrees Celsius per year.

Me: Bah; that's nothing.

TL: OH NO!  The concern is sea level rise!

Me: By how much?

TL: 2 Cm per year!

Me: Can't we just build sea walls?

TL: No!  A lot of economic damage will be created from climate change!

Me: How much?


Me: The current US GDP is $25T.  So about $.75T?

TL: Yes.

Me: How much would it cost to go all renewable?

TL: $8T.

Me: I think I'll pass.

TL: FASCIST!

Note; this is not an endorsement of republicans on some other issues.  But on this issue, the GOP has more common sense.
WyIted
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You only pretend to be a moderate as a form of self righteousness.  You also re strawmanning the left here. 
ADreamOfLiberty
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There is no point engaging with any assertion he makes, he is unwilling to retract or support specific debunked statements.

He is obsessed with definitions of right and left that he engineers on the fly from pure whim.

The words "moderate" and "common sense" have no coherent meaning (in his mind) that can be engaged with any he uses them only to present the facade of personal authority.
TheUnderdog
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@WyIted
You also re strawmanning the left here. 
How?

You only pretend to be a moderate as a form of self righteousness. 
I don't grift.
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@TheUnderdog
James comey is a smart guy. An FBI director who prides himself on being above politics. Why does he do this? He wants to feel superior to others who are passionately left wing or right wing. 

I think you believe that you can  position your arguments as unassailable because you are not politically aligned. You can get away without many rebuttals because whether your opponents are left or right you can claim they are biased. 

You are most likely unaware of this internal drive on a conscious level as is James comes.

You asked me to point out your strawman so I will be defending the leftist position. Note that I disagree with the position I am defending. 

The Left: Ban Coal!
Straw man that likely only applies to a few leftist retards. Most people on the left will want to gradually reduce coal usage by slowly switching to nuclear power as well as some alternative sources of energy and these people are often sensitive to how this will harm coal mining towns and also seek to teach the people in these industries new skills through subsidies that are directed towards places like rural west Virginia. 

They also seek to slowly increase carbon taxes and international agreements on co2 emissions so that way the industry very slowly and gradually becomes less profitable and this gradual but consistent pressure should result in industries getting creative to cut CO2 emissions and start seeking alternative fuel sources. The gradual increase means industries also have time to adjust so we don't harm. 

It should also be noted that the United States has more coal than any other country. Power in history has always followed countries who were the best at energy production so decreasing coal usage even if it is not replaced with renewable puts the United States in a position to be very dominant in the energy sector once the world has to start moving towards coal. So reducing coal usage now pays off in the future and is part of foreign policy. 

TL: .02 degrees Celsius per year.

Me: Bah; that's nothing.

TL: OH NO! The concern is sea level rise!
The average isn't the only concern. Atmospheric changes that cause temperature increases also make it harder for things we need to survive.  If you haven't noticed we see less frogs and bees than we did as children. It's because the atmosphere while unnoticeable to us has made it harder for them to survive. 

These holes in the Ozone actually make temperature swings more pronounced even if the temperature stayed the same. Meaning more natural disasters, more famine in places that can't afford famine and resources is the real reason for war so if temperature shifts are making it harder to farm in some areas, people will go to war for those resources rather than die.

: How much would it cost to go all renewable?

TL: $8T.

8 trillion dollars in New jobs. American jobs instead of going to Saudi oil prince's with Isis ties sounds like a good investment in America. 

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It's all straw man's bro. Their arguments are stronger than you think and conservative issues you disagree with are also less stupid than you think. You just get stuck looking at surface level arguments and you seem to be strawmanning. I am far from an environmentalist and I know they have better arguments than you give credit for. 
ADreamOfLiberty
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@WyIted
Since there is a chance Wylted will think about what I say I will engage with some of the bigger points.


It should also be noted that the United States has more coal than any other country. Power in history has always followed countries who were the best at energy production so decreasing coal usage even if it is not replaced with renewable puts the United States in a position to be very dominant in the energy sector once the world has to start moving towards coal. So reducing coal usage now pays off in the future and is part of foreign policy. 
It's an expiring goldmine though. It's only a matter of time before people get over themselves and start using a lot more nuclear. Then coal will be a novelty resource. Maybe useful for straight heat production and that's about it.


These holes in the Ozone actually make temperature swings more pronounced even if the temperature stayed the same.
There are no holes in the ozone anymore, and very little energy was carried by as UV. Also if the cartoon theory of global warming was right having less ozone means less "greenhouse" gas so it should cool us down right?

https://webbook.nist.gov/cgi/cbook.cgi?ID=C10028156&Mask=80 <- look at those nasty peaks around 10 microns.


more famine in places that can't afford famine
Famine comes from humans, specifically humans doing the civilization thing wrong; like say killing the farmers and stealing their land because you're on the verge of a egalitarian utopia.


if temperature shifts are making it harder to farm in some areas
It's making it easier in far more places and not very much of a difference in any case.


8 trillion dollars in New jobs.
broken windows fallacy


American jobs instead of going to Saudi oil prince's with Isis ties sounds like a good investment in America. 
Like you said, we have a lot of coal. We could burn like lunatics (aka like China) and thereby have our cake and eat it too.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
I am not going to be able to defend the position well outside of a formal debate where I allow myself more time to research. You made great points and my effort in that response was to steelmam a position I disagree with. I wanted to point out that op was strawmanning. I think I presented a position I disagree with, much better than he presented a position he disagrees with and that I was more fair to my ideological opponents. 
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@ADreamOfLiberty
It's an expiring goldmine though. It's only a matter of time before people get over themselves and start using a lot more nuclear. Then coal will be a novelty resource. Maybe useful for straight heat production and that's about it.
It really is the best alternative and with these LLMs using so much electricity and every big company wanting their own it may be worth investing some sheckles into companies that are positioned to build nuclear power plants

There are no holes in the ozone anymore, and very little energy was carried by as UV. Also if the cartoon theory of global warming was right having less ozone means less "greenhouse" gas so it should cool us down right?
I remember the banning of freeon or however it is spelled and I did hear it was having some positive impact but since the ban happened in the early 90s, I guess this shows how out of date my knowledge is.

broken windows fallacy
I have heard of broken windows policing and have seen it called a fallacy but that can't be what you are talking about hear, so the criticism is unfamiliar
ADreamOfLiberty
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@WyIted
broken windows fallacy
I have heard of broken windows policing and have seen it called a fallacy but that can't be what you are talking about hear, so the criticism is unfamiliar
Well it's probably the most important thing that people don't know about economics which makes it way more important than trace gasses.

Here is how the story goes:


There once was a window maker (or glazier) who had more time than work. He wanted more money but he couldn't raise prices due to a competitor. So to create more work he put on on a mask and at night broke windows.

When he was discovered and brought to court he hired John Maynard Keynes to defend him. Keynes said that all those windows he broke was actually a net benefit to society since the GDP went up. (and it did go up, GDP is measured in products sold)


The lesson is this (although not always presented correctly): Keynes is wrong because GDP is not what needs to be maximized, value needs to be maximized and only people can decide what is valuable to them. They don't value paying the window maker, they value the window.

The window maker got more goods and services from other people while everyone else got only the same windows again and again. Just because people are getting paid doesn't mean they produced something useful.

War is often used as another example. On paper, with the computations Kenyes cared about; war is great for business. There is lots of buying, a huge surplus of "jobs".

Only one problem: It's all aimed towards killing people and blowing things up, and while it may at times be necessary it doesn't contribute to quality of life. It's of no real economic value. Even raiders eventually run out of other people's wealth.

Another example is the New Deal, the so called solution to the great depression (caused by federal reserve). Now obviously not everything the government spent stolen money on was worthless, but there was a significant amount of "paying people to dig ditches that no one needed" or "bridges to nowhere".

Imagine if you will a country where everyone had the same job, digging a ditch, all government workers, all getting paid $500,000 a year. In terms of absolute GDP that economy would be better than ours. Except there is no bread or houses, only ditches, soon to be filled with people who starved to death.

So, you say 8T in American jobs. The ability to spend 8T domestically does not mean you're increasing domestic prosperity. You could be digging a ditch.



That is the broken windows fallacy: spending != value creation.



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@ADreamOfLiberty
It's in the government's best interest to break windows to keep the ponzi scheme going. This is why we have endless proxy wars and wide open borders and zero police in the cities. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
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@Greyparrot
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Which is why I am glad I dont hold any power position in society.

I dont want to be corrupt.

I want to be cute.
ADreamOfLiberty
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@Greyparrot
It's in the government's best interest to break windows to keep the ponzi scheme going. This is why we have endless proxy wars and wide open borders and zero police in the cities. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
It's in this government's interest, the deep state are the window makers in our wonderful "world order".

... but you're right about power. In this case the power to steal. Of course that was always going to turn sour.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
the deep state are the window makers
More like the window breakers.

The window makers are deluded into thinking they are saving the planet and the country when they are only saving the wealthy elites. 10 percent for the big guy, as usual. They think they are part of the club. They are not.
ADreamOfLiberty
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@Greyparrot
the deep state are the window makers
More like the window breakers.

The window makers are deluded into thinking they are saving the planet and the country when they are only saving the wealthy elites. 10 percent for the big guy, as usual. They think they are part of the club. They are not.
No, that's the people who keep "paying" (being stolen from) the window maker.

The window makers shell companies are Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, Blackrock, etc... They make weapons (very inefficiently). They launder the money to people who control the institutions that control the narrative (academia, media, 'fact checkers', etc...), those narrative controllers make sure that only people who like windows (weapons and war) get (apparently) elected or at least make sure the people elected don't remove the bureaucratic layers that make sure every congressman and POTUS thinks escalation and arms dealing is necessary.

The subverted government then starts wars, fans wars, and gives away weapons to give them an excuse to steal from the public and give to the weapon makers. Circle complete.


So if you call the deep state all parties in this cycle it includes Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, Blackrock, etc... so they are the window makers and the window breakers at the same time (like in the parable).

Maybe if they would stop smashing windows (creating conflicts that the sheeple are brainwashed into caring about) we could build a reasonable amount of weapons and only replace them as they are rendered obsolete (which would cost like 1/50th).


In the window maker parable the victims are the people who have to give more and more to the window makers, not the window makers themselves.
TheUnderdog
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@WyIted
 If you haven't noticed we see less frogs and bees than we did as children. It's because the atmosphere while unnoticeable to us has made it harder for them to survive. 
I thought though bees endured very harsh weather; I would assume that animals that spend their lives outdoors are going to be more temperature resilient than humans that spend our time in HVAC'ed buildings.

These holes in the Ozone actually make temperature swings more pronounced even if the temperature stayed the same.
I thought the Ozone issue was fixed a while back under Clinton.

8 trillion dollars in New jobs. American jobs instead of going to Saudi oil prince's with Isis ties sounds like a good investment in America. 
What about nuclear energy though?  It's cheaper than $8 trillion and no Saudi deals required.  Nuclear energy is right wing and the green environmentalists hate it.