A message to Any American that backs Russia over America.

Author: TheUnderdog

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#1
TheUnderdog
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If you prefer this flag:


to this flag:


because of allegations that the US is, "woke" (which to you, is a synonym for left wing), then this flag:


inherently offends you and I'll help you pack.  It also means you aren't America First, but Russia first.

I don't believe the US should be involved with Ukraine, but if you think we should take RUSSIA's side because Russia is allegedly less woke, then you put Russia before America.

America should strictly stay out.

A poll I read a while back indicated that only like 4% of the US population backs Russia (over America).  The people who back Ukraine still put America first, but they are fine with helping other countries and they still love America.  If a husband wants to donate $100 to charity and spend $40K on his family, does that mean he doesn't put his family first?  No.


#2
Best.Korea
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Ukraine should just end war by surrendering.
#3
Best.Korea
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Russia isnt even a sustainable country on its own.

Low birth rates, poor economy, war, dying in suspicious accidents...

Why would anyone want to move to Russia?
#4
ADreamOfLiberty
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@TheUnderdog
inherently offends you and I'll help you pack.  It also means you aren't America First, but Russia first.
You don't get to choose what offends people.


If a husband wants to donate $100 to charity and spend $40K on his family, does that mean he doesn't put his family first?  No.
What if he steals from his family to send the $100?


I have a message for those who would clutch pearls over a lack of blind "nationalistic" loyalty to a narrative promulgated by a giant thieving government and its unofficial propaganda arm:

You don't get to define what it means to be a good american.

There is a document that explains why this government exists, the problem it is supposed to solve, and the reasons governments deserve to die.

Understanding the truth behind that document is what makes a person a good citizen of any land. If you can't live with people who demand virtue for loyalty then I'll help you pack. I hear there is a part of Korea that is perfect for you.
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#5
TheUnderdog
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@ADreamOfLiberty
You don't get to choose what offends people.
What's your point?

What if he steals from his family to send the $100?
You can't steal from your own family.  You can steal from people in your family; but not the family it's self.

I have a message for those who would clutch pearls over a lack of blind "nationalistic" loyalty
Blind nationalistic loyalty means, "America is always correct even when we send money to Ukraine".  I don't agree with blind nationalistic loyalty.  I disagree with my state and country plenty.  But I'm not crazy enough to back anti-free speech Russia.

 If you can't live with people who demand virtue for loyalty
I don't care who my neighbors are if they are harmless.

But if one prefers Russia to America, then why don't they move to Russia?  It's one thing if you want to incorporate Russian ideas in US policy; it's another to prefer Russia to America.
#6
ADreamOfLiberty
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@TheUnderdog
What if he steals from his family to send the $100?
You can't steal from your own family.  You can steal from people in your family; but not the family it's self.
Well a person who supports stealing from the American public is stealing from each person in America to varying degrees.


But I'm not crazy enough to back anti-free speech Russia.
You are crazy enough to think switching "Lodging AND residence" to "Lodging OR residence" is a "law to kill migrants"

A person as crazy as you cannot be trusted about something far more complicated like assessing the true degree to which speech is free in a country, nor can you be trusted to tell the difference between "backing Russia" and believing Russia was provoked by anti-democratic coups caused by the US deep state.


 If you can't live with people who demand virtue for loyalty
I don't care who my neighbors are if they are harmless.
How nice, in that case they may simply decline your offer to pack because they're staying right where they are.
#7
WyIted
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Literal strawman and can be reversed to say th left supports Ukraine over America because interfering in this war does not help the United states
#8
WyIted
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But I'm not crazy enough to back anti-free speech Russia.
Ukraine is also anti free speech. It is literally 2 fascists fighting each other.  If we are applying American principles to Ukraine they fall woefully short
#9
7000series
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It doesn't matter that the two countries are anti-free speech. Russia attacked Ukraine, and if Russia wins, I can guarantee you that Russia won't stop there, and China might join in too.
#10
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@7000series
Before we dumped 300 billion into Ukraine, Russia didn't attack anyone. You aren't in a position to predict when Russia will start and when they will stop.

Russia will stop when America stops poking the bear. End of story. That doesn't have to cost the taxpayers a dime. And we can stop pretending America didn't plan decades ago on Ukraine being turned into another Iraq, completely devastated to the point nobody wants to live there. 
#11
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Literal strawman and can be reversed to say the left supports Ukraine over America.
Right, if you aren't for cutting the endless funding to Ukraine, then you are for wanting America to lose.
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#12
TheUnderdog
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Well a person who supports stealing from the American public is stealing from each person in America to varying degrees.
That's just taxation.  Taxation is the only time when theft is justified.  Abolishing taxes means abolishing government spending (so you would have to by definition defund the police) and I know you probably don't want to do that.  Police officers are just as much government employees as teachers.

You are crazy enough to think switching "Lodging AND residence" to "Lodging OR residence" is a "law to kill migrants"
This is off topic and the bill was unnecessary if it merely protected self defense as Arizona already has very right wing self defense laws.  The bill is designed so you can murder undocumented immigrants.  If it was for self defense, then it wouldn't be needed as Arizona already has stand your ground laws.  It's just Arizona's politicians trying to hang onto power because they know their state is heading blue when Mark Kelly won it by about 5 pts.

A person as crazy as you cannot be trusted about something far more complicated like assessing the true degree to which speech is free in a country, nor can you be trusted to tell the difference between "backing Russia" and believing Russia was provoked by anti-democratic coups caused by the US deep state.
You say that about anyone (even someone who has many right wing opinions) if they dare to criticize the right.

How nice, in that case they may simply decline your offer to pack because they're staying right where they are.
They can decline the offer; it shouldn't be a requirement to make them leave.  But the ones who coined the term, "If this flag offends you, I'll help you pack" are conservatives.  You wouldn't strawman them in the same way as when I co opt it against them.
#13
ADreamOfLiberty
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@TheUnderdog
The bill is designed so you can murder undocumented immigrants.
Doubling down on crazy. You can leave any time the sanity gets too annoying.
#14
WyIted
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@7000series
ussia attacked Ukraine, and if Russia wins, I can guarantee you that Russia won't stop there,
They can barely handle Ukraine, who are they supposed to invade next? India?
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#15
TheUnderdog
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Doubling down on crazy. You can leave any time the sanity gets too annoying.
Well to you, left wing and crazy are synonymous and there are a lot of people that think Arizona is trying to legalize murdering undocumented immigrants, so keep on calling half the country crazy and see how irrelevant you become.
#16
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@TheUnderdog
Self defense is no more murder than abortion is.
#17
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@TheUnderdog
America should strictly stay out.

Oh, you mean like America should have stayed out of the Maidan revolution that started the whole Donbas war in 2014?

Too late for that. Only now, if you say America should stay out, you are a traitor for questioning your unelected war department. 

If this is the case for America, then the flag has last its meaning, and isn't worth respect anymore.
#18
ADreamOfLiberty
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@TheUnderdog
Doubling down on crazy. You can leave any time the sanity gets too annoying.
Well to you, left wing and crazy are synonymous and there are a lot of people that think Arizona is trying to legalize murdering undocumented immigrants, so keep on calling half the country crazy and see how irrelevant you become.
If half the country can look at a long standing self-defense law and call is license to murder migrants there is no hope, war is the only outcome, and we'll win because we know how read plain text (among other things).

My hope is that half the country is not like that, rather they are being deceived by people like Kyle Kulinski and yourself. That more and more of them will wake up, and since they are sheeple once they sense a shift in the currents the crazy will be reduced to yourself and those like you.


Note I want to differentiate Kyle Kulinski and you. Kyle clearly has a duty as someone with a considerable audience to do due diligence, he's hurting American society and there is no excuse for it BUT I don't know for a fact that he's read the original law or the modification. If he has, then he is as bad as you.
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#19
TheUnderdog
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@GP:

Self defense is no more murder than abortion is.
Correct; but this wasn't self defense as Arizona already had very right wing self defense laws.  This was so you can murder undocumented immigrants who are walking on your property for a few seconds.  If someone was just walking on my property and I knew they were just passing through, then I would leave them alone.

Oh, you mean like America should have stayed out of the Maidan revolution that started the whole Donbas war in 2014?

Too late for that. Only now, if you say America should stay out, you are a traitor for questioning your unelected war department. 
We should have stayed out then.  I'm not a traitor for being pro isolationist, but those that think I am have free speech to believe and state that.

If this is the case for America, then the flag has last its meaning, and isn't worth respect anymore.
Alright; you have decided that standing for the flag is political; fine.  So then don't be upset at BLM protestors who want to kneel and sit for it.  I'm cool with anyone refusing to stand for the flag for any major political disagreement they have with American policy as it is free speech.
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#20
TheUnderdog
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If half the country can look at a long standing self-defense law and call is license to murder migrants there is no hope, war is the only outcome, and we'll win because we know how read plain text (among other things).
Pro life and pro small government unless they disagree with you, then you murder them in war with the government.  Smh.

My hope is that half the country is not like that, rather they are being deceived by people like Kyle Kulinski and yourself. 
Oh; about half the country agrees with Kyle Kulinski on this alright.  If that offends you, IDGAF.

 Kyle clearly has a duty as someone with a considerable audience to do due diligence, he's hurting American society and there is no excuse for it BUT I don't know for a fact that he's read the original law or the modification. If he has, then he is as bad as you.
I read the paragraph, but I didn't feel like reading the bills they referenced because that could be like 30 pages long.  I didn't feel like reading it.  I trust Kulinski over partisan hacks like yourself (and I agree with the right on many issues; so I'm not a partisan hack).

But for someone that said they wouldn't read any of my forums, you seem really interested.
#21
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@TheUnderdog
and I knew they were just passing through

That's why this law exists. Because you cannot ever know this.
#22
ADreamOfLiberty
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[TheUnderdog] This was so you can murder undocumented immigrants who are walking on your property for a few seconds.


[TheUnderdog] I trust Kulinski over partisan hacks like yourself (and I agree with the right on many issues; so I'm not a partisan hack).
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you authority based epistemology. He's trusting his experts. That's his excuse for being crazy wrong.
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#23
TheUnderdog
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@Greyparrot

That's why this law exists. Because you cannot ever know this.
If they just pass through, then you killing them is murder.  If they are a threat, then this law is repetetive and thus, pointless.


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#24
TheUnderdog
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you authority based epistemology. He's trusting his experts. That's his excuse for being crazy wrong.
That's a fair roast.

I concede.
#25
Swagnarok
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@TheUnderdog
As somebody who's staunchly pro-Ukraine, I say: screw this.

Europe is not, and never has been, a legal appendage of the US. Most of its countries are longstanding US allies but this fact wouldn't make it treasonous to America to hypothetically let them fall. It's not comparable to, say, ceding California to a foreign power. Likewise Russia is a longstanding rival but that's no guarantee about what relations between the two countries will look like in the future.
The US, while a constitutional republic with strong democratic elements, has been allies with undemocratic regimes in the past, such as the Kingdom of Morocco (the first country to grant us diplomatic recognition), and still is with some today, such as Saudi Arabia. It would not be literal treason to side with a bloc of dictatorships over Europe, even though it is true that our national values are, for the most part, more aligned with those of Europe.

One can validly be both pro-Putin and pro-America, even if this is an impractical and rather ill-advised way of thinking.
#26
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On a related note, being vaguely sympathetic toward Russia because they're "not woke" is not objectively worse than being anti-Russia because they have laws perceived as homophobic or anti-feminist. Which was a serious factor in many Americans hating Russia well before the 2022 invasion of Ukraine.

"American national values" are largely subjective and up to individual interpretation. To some, the US is rightly a paradise of free love in a global sea of repressive societies. To others, the US is rooted in Christian moral values. To call one side less legitimately American than the other is mere opinion, and they have equal right to talk the same crap about you. All Americans are free to advocate for closer alignment with whichever countries are compatible with their own worldview, a worldview which they'll usually interpret as being what America fundamentally is.

My reason for disliking Russia is that it's an inwardly and outwardly aggressive dictatorship which is actively making the world a worse place and, if left unchecked, will do so on an even larger scale in the future. At the same time I don't dislike Viktor Orban, because so far as I can tell he's none of those things and has merely drawn the ire of western elites for being socially conservative.
#27
ADreamOfLiberty
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@Swagnarok
On a related note, being vaguely sympathetic toward Russia because they're "not woke" is not objectively worse than being anti-Russia because they have laws perceived as homophobic or anti-feminist. Which was a serious factor in many Americans hating Russia well before the 2022 invasion of Ukraine.
This issue particular drives me up a tree.

In Russia it's legal to have sex with consenting adults. Their "error" is in not creating special protections, special celebrations, new government categorization.

Meanwhile in just about every sharia country it is criminalized, sometimes with death. Prime example: Gaza.

They are putty in the hands of the media.

Note the very recent 2022 extension of banning LGBT propaganda is an obvious violation of free speech (as opposed to its 2013 existence when it applied only to minors), but like you said they've been mad at Russia for a long time over this stuff. How convenient for the military industrial complex, homophobes who need to be countered with enormous sums of military hardware as opposed to the homophobes who MURDER people while buying large quantities of military hardware (Arabia, Pakistan, and more).


To some, the US is rightly a paradise of free love in a global sea of repressive societies.
To others the US is still repressive with plenty of victimless sexual behavior criminalized or pseudo-criminalized via "I'll get you somehow" legal action.


My reason for disliking Russia is that it's an inwardly and outwardly aggressive dictatorship
Doesn't that depend on the premise that the Russian elections are rigged?
#28
Greyparrot
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@TheUnderdog
If they just pass through, then...
You can never know that they are just "passing through"
Desperate people willing to dodge a legal port of entry are willing to do similar desperate things. This is why that law exists, because you can never know. No matter how many times you claim you can, it doesn't change the reality that you cannot ever know. If you have to flip a coin on the issue, it should always fall on the side of an American citizen.
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#29
TheUnderdog
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@Swagnarok
One can validly be both pro-Putin and pro-America, even if this is an impractical and rather ill-advised way of thinking.
This is absolutely correct.  But if they are more pro Russia than pro America, then they should move to Russia.  Like if you live in the US and support Israel or Palestine, then fine.  But don't put either part of the South Levant before America if you live in America.
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#30
TheUnderdog
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@GP
You can never know that they are just "passing through"
You kindof can.  If they try and break in or set up camp on your property, then you can use self defense to protect your property.

If they are just running through your property and it's obvious they are going to get off, then let them get off on their own.