Should children have freedom?

Author: Best.Korea

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I think that children should have freedom.

The thinking is simple.

If you say:
"I have a right to tell a child what to do."

I ask:
"Is this a child you own? Is this child your property?"

If the answer is no, then I dont see why would you be able to command someone who is not even your property.

If the answer is yes, then you support slavery.
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@Best.Korea
Is freedom by default a good thing or is it neutral?
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@Mall
Its a good thing.
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@Best.Korea
Do you care to debate that?

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@Mall
Sure, I anyway planned to forfeit our other debate.
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@Best.Korea
I have seen people advocate for this with good philosophies to back it up and it's part of the reason I dropped being a libertarian. For libertarians to be ideologically consistent they need to give kids the right to do whatever they want.

The libertarian cope Is ofcourse some form of co tract theory that parents automatically have with children when they are born. It's nothing more than a cope. The libertarians who are libertarians just because they think the ideology works better usually will state some sortof age of reason. It's ideologically inconsistent with libertarianism but it doesn't matter since they promote libertarianism for practical reasons. 

I would agree with the practical libertarians reasoning.

Children are stupid, easily victimized, naive and weak. The results of allowing them total freedom is that they would die within a week. A baby will eat something that will kill them or put a fork in a outlet if you let them . Plus if they have freedom it removes your obligation to clothe, feed abd shelter them. So they would die pretty fast. For toddlers that can reach a doorknob, they would probably not be housebound and die trying to cook for themselves, open up the door and run into traffic and die. This is all without getting into the myriad of things that won't lead to death, but would significantly harm the quality of life. 

Freedom is an extrinsic good not an intrinsic good. Read it again.

A fish in a fishtank is not free, but if you take a hammer to the fishtank so he is no longer trapped by it and he will die. 

If you free a bird from a cage and it flies into your homes sunroof to get outside but crashes and dies, he was free but he wasn't better off for it. 

There isn't much value in freedom for children. Parents need to be there to protect and love their children. Not to grant it freedom and also themselves freedom by removing the shackles of their responsibility (which shackles parents and kids) and the shackles of their love. 

When the kid is slightly less naive so he doesn't jump into a strangers van who has candy, when he understands the world better so he doesn't pull down boiling water on his head when trying to cook, when he can defend himself by speaking up for his own best interests than he can be afforded slightly more freedom in proportion to this, but that freedom is an extrinsic good created by the child growing as a person. 
sadolite
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This video sums up the decisions children would make if given freedom.

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@WyIted
Ah I see, you are one of those who assume

"To give freedom = let them die in an accident".

Obviously, the conclusion doesnt follow, as letting children die in an accident destroys their freedom, it doesnt uphold it.

You accussed me of having libertarian views, which I consider an insult to my intelligence.

Really, a libertarian doesnt even understand how society works or how society survives.

Freedom means, according to commonly understood meaning, greatest equal options.

To achieve that, survival is necessary except in cases of voluntary self-termination.

Now, when I say that children should have freedom, I mean that children should be given a choice and options, like anyone else.

Just as we would save anyone else from dying in an accident, so we would save children.

Now, what I oppose to is "parent-commander" person who assumes they can:
1. Control what child says
2. Control how child behaves
3. Control what child eats
4. Force child to do things child doesnt want to do

Greatest equal options do not eliminate parent's need to care for children.

Quite the opposite, greatest equal options are not really possible if children arent cared for.

Libertarians (yuck) interpreted greatest equal freedom as "freedom of parents not to feed children",

a dumb interpretation, one must say.

In fact, it achieves opposite of greatest equal freedom, but libertarians arent exactly famous for bright ideas.
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@Best.Korea
It depends on the particular freedom.

Freedoms that are not anything more than nominally life changing, yes.  If a kid wants to have Ice Cream or shoot hoops, that's fine.

If it's a life changing freedom (like addictions such as drugs like alcohol or sex), then no.  They need to be mature enough, and should refrain from these until they are mature enough (my standard is 16 for sex, even if it's a 16 year old having sex with a 30 year old; either 16 year olds can mentally consent to sex or they can't and I Aire on the side of liberty).  I would put alcohol, weed, and tobacco at the same age.
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@sadolite
I think that video is staged.

No way could a 5 year old kid be that dumb.
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@TheUnderdog
There are, of course, freedoms which every child should have.

Its common in parenting to let children pick what they will wear, what they will eat, who will they be friends with, let them have some money to spend as they wish...

These are all usually positive freedoms which empower children as individuals.

About life changing freedoms, its questionable and there can be debates about it, but it is commonly understood that drugs take away freedom, and so does tobacco.

For example, people who smoke tobacco dont usually start it because they wanna kill themselves, but death is the common result of smoking tobacco.

But this isnt topic meant for debating extreme cases, just to point out that child's choices need to be respected too if there is going to be a society based on freedom.
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@Best.Korea
About life changing freedoms, its questionable and there can be debates about it, but it is commonly understood that drugs take away freedom, and so does tobacco.
Drugs for kids take away security, but not freedom.

The only thing that can take away freedom is (a ban or a mandate) from an external source.

For example, people who smoke tobacco dont usually start it because they wanna kill themselves, but death is the common result of smoking tobacco.
I thought they were courious as to how someone could get addicted to it and then they find out and they are addicted.

But this isnt topic meant for debating extreme cases, just to point out that child's choices need to be respected too if there is going to be a society based on freedom.
Well, you are a big advocate of making the age of consent 5 or something like that (which is a pretty extreme case).  I think sex is comparably addictive to something like alcohol and young people should stay away from them both.
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@Best.Korea
If tha is the case then you have the incorrect definition of freedom.  If you want a real discussion, since most people would interpret the word freedom to mean something different tha you, these types of posts should be precluded with the semantics you are working with. I would suggest you remake this thread with the definition of freedom you provided me as the introduction to your argument.
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@TheUnderdog
This author of this thread takes the stance that freedom is good by default.
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@TheUnderdog
Drugs for kids take away security, but not freedom.
Freedom greatly depends upon security.

You do not have much freedom if you die early, since all of your choices that you could have had would disappear.

In fact, being alive is a condition for having freedom in the first place.

Well, you are a big advocate of making the age of consent 5 or something like that (which is a pretty extreme case).  I think sex is comparably addictive to something like alcohol and young people should stay away from them both.
Well, I am not sure if I wanna debate that, but fine.

I am not for "age of consent in a sense that children can consent to anything and anything consensual should be allowed".

In fact, I think the age of consent for sex should be 15 or 16.

Age of consent for some other sexual activities should be lower.

For example, masturbation is healthy, and its one of the safest sexual activities, so there is no reason to ban it.

If a map masturbates in front of a child, he is punished, even if he didnt touch the child.

Also, plenty of people try to stop children from masturbating.

There is too much violation of freedom in the world, and people often get blinded by desire to control everything.
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@Best.Korea
You do not have much freedom if you die early, since all of your choices that you could have had would disappear.
But it's from something that you chose to do (smoke despite all of the warnings in school telling people not to smoke).  You have the freedom to make your life less safe under certain circumstances, but you should be encouraged to not exercise that freedom.

In fact, I think the age of consent for sex should be 15 or 16.
So it's a slight disagreement.  I would prefer 16 to be the minimum age.  But then that would mean you believe you should be banned from having sex with minors.

Age of consent for some other sexual activities should be lower.

For example, masturbation is healthy, and its one of the safest sexual activities, so there is no reason to ban it.
I believe mastrabation is addictive; I've done it and I got addicted to it and still am and probably will be for decades.  I started at 21.  Currently, it's no big deal, but there is a boiling frog situation that I think is happening.  I would prefer it if the school system told kids that they should delay it a lot because it is addictive.  Don't ban it; it's not practical to do that.  But encourage them to refrain while they don't know what it's like so they don't get addicted to it.
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@TheUnderdog
But it's from something that you chose to do
Its something which takes away many of your choices, as destroying even one year of your life destroys lots of your choices.

So its more of a violation of freedom than it is freedom.

Its one choice which destroys years of many other choices.

Its similar to suicide debate, but in case of tobacco, people who dont want to die are killing themselves just because it feels good.

I dont think that people who want to live should be allowed to kill themselves due to stupid choice they made as teens and got addicted.

Its better if it is never an allowed option, as it saves much more options as a result.

But then that would mean you believe you should be banned from having sex with minors.
Yes, it should be banned.

I believe mastrabation is addictive
Anything can be addictive.

Masturbation is healthy.

 I started at 21.
Well, I started masturbating much earlier.
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This is again one of the topics that can only be from one specific user.
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@Best.Korea
Its one choice which destroys years of many other choices.
Yeah; but it's the choice to make.  You should be at least 25 in order for me to be fine with you committing suicide, because that is the least reversible choice out there.

But then that would mean you believe you should be banned from having sex with minors.
Yes, it should be banned.
Alright; we're getting somewhere.

 I started at 21.
Well, I started masturbating much earlier.
How long have you been mastrabating?
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@TheUnderdog
I know adults dumber than that child
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@TheUnderdog
Yeah; but it's the choice to make.
I know its a choice.

The question is should such choice be allowed.

In my view, it shouldnt be allowed, because it destroys many other choices as a result.

You should be at least 25 in order for me to be fine with you committing suicide, because that is the least reversible choice out there.
I am thinking more like age 40 and above.

How long have you been mastrabating?
I started masturbating when I was like 6 or 7.

Well, maybe I masturbated before that, I cant remember.
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@Intelligence_06
This is again one of the topics that can only be from one specific user.
Lol

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@sadolite
Maybe if the adults can't talk, but no adult that can talk is dumber than that 5 year old is if the video wasn't a grift.
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@Best.Korea
How long have you been mastrabating?
I started masturbating when I was like 6 or 7.
Alright; so if it's not addicting, then I will be more willing to do it.