The significance of transgender identity.

Author: Mall
transgender
LGBT
identify

Posts

Total: 46
Topic's author
#1
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 398
Posts: 1,937
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
The transgender folks and whoever that makes their gender identity significant in this way emphasize the pronouns.

For instance a male may communicate that they're not to be addressed as him or himself.

Granted that male perceives themselves as wanting to be female.

Why do you think they request strictly to only be identified in third person as they and them?

What is the significance of that specifically?
#2
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,265
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@Mall
There is no significance. They imagined themselves trapped by gender and choosing pronouns feels like liberation and power over their perceived oppressor (society).

There is no objective basis, what matters is the choice and how people react not the pronoun.
Topic's author
#3
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 398
Posts: 1,937
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
Does it make sense or is it consistent that instead of "he" , he can be represented as they and them?
#4
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,265
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@Mall
Language is arbitrary. In most cases gendered language conveys no relevant information. "they" is plural leading to a loss of comprehension when forced into a singular role.

As I said there is no objective reason "he" should become "they" or "her", when you disconnect the gendered language from gender it goes from being mostly irrelevant to completely irrelevant.

"He" to "her" goes from communicating "We're talking about a male person" to "we're talking about someone who likes girly things... maybe you better not assume".

"He" to "they" goes from communicating "We're talking about a male person" to "we're talking about someone who might get upset if you assume they like manly things but has every right to like manly things regardless, what I'm saying is don't you dare assume anything you bigot", that is after the listener parses context and realizes there is only one person being referred to.


We could think of a thousand pronouns for every permutation of character and personality but that would be silly and inconsistent with most languages.
#5
Sidewalker
Sidewalker's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 2,785
3
2
5
Sidewalker's avatar
Sidewalker
3
2
5
-->
@Mall
The transgender folks and whoever that makes their gender identity significant in this way emphasize the pronouns.

For instance a male may communicate that they're not to be addressed as him or himself.

Granted that male perceives themselves as wanting to be female.

Why do you think they request strictly to only be identified in third person as they and them?

What is the significance of that specifically?
It's a matter of personal preference, and I'm sure everyone has their own reasons for wanting to be addressed with a certain kind of pronoun. 

Does that matter to you?  If so, why?

I'm serious. I'm old as dirt and I've been meeting people my entire life, its almost a standard part of the meeting process to find out what the person wants to be called, I'll bet I've straight up asked "What do you want me to call you" a hundred times. They tell me, I say OK, and that's what I call them, and never in my life did someone tell me what they wanted me to call them and it upset me, or bothered me, or whatever it is that's going on about it. All of a sudden people are terribly upset about what transgender people want to be called and I really don't get it.  All I really know about transgender people is that they are having a very different experience than I'm having, I don't get it, and I don't know what pronoun I'm supposed to use, I would certainly be more comfortable if I knew what pronoun I'm supposed to use, and so I appreciate when they tell me.  And that's not just transgender people, my whole life I've been running across different kinds of people and I always want to know what I'm supposed to call them, and always appreciate it when they tell me, and if they don't think to, I ask.  Never once, ever, did the answer bother me, if somebody asked me to refer to them as a Martian, ok, so what.

And it's not just me, that is just the way it has been for everybody, for decades, meet people, find out how they want to be addressed, and then you know how to talk to each other, nothing complicated, it was just the way things were, for decades.

All of a sudden, not that many years ago, as it relates to transgender people, this all changed, dramatically, all of a sudden there is outrage, and anger and drama, and debate posts, and I really don't know what's going on, I do not understand.  Why does anybody care?

I want to hear from the outraged, can someone please explain why you are upset about this.  I sincerely want to understand it.
#6
Sam_Flynn
Sam_Flynn's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 121
0
2
4
Sam_Flynn's avatar
Sam_Flynn
0
2
4
Dumb topic.

IT's all about mental illness. Period. 
#7
Sidewalker
Sidewalker's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 2,785
3
2
5
Sidewalker's avatar
Sidewalker
3
2
5
-->
@Sam_Flynn
Dumb topic.

IT's all about mental illness. Period. 
Does mental illness upset you?
#8
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,171
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Mall
Social trend relative to human social evolution relative to ongoing socio-psychological angst.

Bloke = sperm producer

Woman = egg producer.

Bloke that has their dick and balls removed = just that.

Women that wear strap-ons = just that.
#9
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 363
Posts: 11,007
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Mall
Why do you think they request strictly to only be identified in third person as they and them?
What is the significance of that specifically?
Would you like if I called you a girl, when you want to be called a guy?

Everyone wants to be called the way they like. 

Human society is far from perfect, but we do get closer to perfection when people can choose their labels,

as opposed to labels being assigned to them by others.
#10
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 363
Posts: 11,007
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
I dont see why would anyone make a big deal out of calling people the way they want to be called.
Topic's author
#11
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 398
Posts: 1,937
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@Best.Korea
Is " he" singular and "they" plural?
#12
Sidewalker
Sidewalker's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 2,785
3
2
5
Sidewalker's avatar
Sidewalker
3
2
5
-->
@Best.Korea
I dont see why would anyone make a big deal out of calling people the way they want to be called.
I want to know that too, but the outraged are just going to stand around whistling and pretending they don't know what we are talking about.

They don't want to admit it's just bigotry, but there isn't anything else to say, so they whistle.
Topic's author
#13
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 398
Posts: 1,937
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4

02.11.2024 09:50PM
0
2
4
"Dumb topic.

IT's all about mental illness. Period. "

Adios. 


Topic's author
#14
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 398
Posts: 1,937
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
Does anybody else think this is a dumb topic?
Topic's author
#15
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 398
Posts: 1,937
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@Sidewalker
It does matter to me in the language we're using. We may have error here.
Topic's author
#16
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 398
Posts: 1,937
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
So he can never be a they. A she can never be a they.
#17
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,265
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@Mall
So he can never be a they. A she can never be a they.
Not without loss of communication efficiency.

Which is why if there MUST be a non-binary pronoun a new one would be better. However I won't bother to learn it, if it catches on it catches on; but in general I don't think it's something to indulge. People are looking for validation and resolution in the wrong places. If it wasn't for their blind submission to socially constructed gender roles they would never have been uncomfortable with being called "he" or "she" to begin with.
#18
Sidewalker
Sidewalker's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 2,785
3
2
5
Sidewalker's avatar
Sidewalker
3
2
5
-->
@Mall
It does matter to me in the language we're using. We may have error here.
I know that, the question is why does it matter to you?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's a matter of bigotry.
Topic's author
#19
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 398
Posts: 1,937
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@Sidewalker
There's possibly error in the language and I aim to be correct in language.
#20
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,356
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Mall
Why do you think they request strictly to only be identified in third person as they and them?

What is the significance of that specifically?
Because that's how they feel. I don't understand it any further than that and I don't need to, at least not for me to recognize as a matter of basic human courtesy that if that's how they want to be addressed then that's how I'll address them.

Why are you asking this, is it a matter of gaining a deeper understanding of transgenderism to empathize with those going through it or are you bringing this up as a political question?

Is " he" singular and "they" plural?
No, not necessarily. If you're talking about person's in general terms you always use they. Example; "if any employee doesn't sign the paperwork they cannot be allowed to continue working". The "they" in that sentence is referring to a hypothetical individual, but without an identified gender neither "he" or "she" is appropriate.
#21
Sidewalker
Sidewalker's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 2,785
3
2
5
Sidewalker's avatar
Sidewalker
3
2
5
-->
@Mall
It does matter to me in the language we're using. We may have error here.
How many times do I have to ask, why does it matter to you?

What exactly is it that upsets you about people preferring certain pronouns? 

I couldn't care less, why does it bother you?

If it isn't bigotry, then what is it?
#22
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,356
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Sidewalker
All of a sudden people are terribly upset about what transgender people want to be called and I really don't get it.
It's one of the hallmark qualities of most conservatives; they tend to see the entire world through the prism of their own selves, so every issue becomes about them personally.

Systemic racism? Oh you're calling me a racist?

The economy is great? Really, then why can't I make ends meet?

You want to be called "they"? Why should I have to acquiesce to your delusion?

You want to fund Ukraine? Why can't our tax dollars be spent on Americans? (And then...) You want to spend my tax dollars on other people (like the homeless)? How dare you.

Conservatism has always been far easier for me to understand from that vantage point, and I've been waiting for someone on this site to paint a different picture but it always comes right back to this.
#23
Sidewalker
Sidewalker's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 2,785
3
2
5
Sidewalker's avatar
Sidewalker
3
2
5
-->
@Double_R
I think what Trump is really selling to his base is victimhood.

The racists are now the victims of racism.

Transgender folks want us to use a certain pronoun and MAGA people are traumatized, they are victims of oppression.

They lose an election, and they are the victims of democracy.

You say slavery was bad for black people and they are victims of people trying to make their children feel bad, of coursewhite children are the real victims of slavery.

People are fleeing death and oppression and MAGA folks are the victims of immigration.

A million people die of Covid, and they are the victims of masks.

Trump breaks the law and he's a victim of the justice department.

The news presents the truth and Trump is the victim of the news.

A football player took a knee in 2016 and they are still screeching victimhood about it. 

MAGA snowflakes think Trump is their Messiah because he brought down victimhood from the mountaintop. 

It isn't grievance politics so much as it is a glorious celebration of victimhood.


Topic's author
#24
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 398
Posts: 1,937
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
Secret trump idolizers.
Topic's author
#25
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 398
Posts: 1,937
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@Sidewalker
Oh hopefully this is clearer to you. I want to be correct and telling the truth in using certain language.

For example , one person , a male or female, is not a them or they. It's like saying one is the same as two. 

Want to be correct in the language, the language, the language, the language.

People are adding all these other social facets. My point has no interest, concern or relevancy to that.
Topic's author
#26
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 398
Posts: 1,937
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@Double_R
 I want to be correct and telling the truth in using certain language.

For example , one person , a male or female, is not a them or they. It's like saying one is the same as two. 

#27
Sidewalker
Sidewalker's avatar
Debates: 8
Posts: 2,785
3
2
5
Sidewalker's avatar
Sidewalker
3
2
5
-->
@Mall
Oh hopefully this is clearer to you. I want to be correct and telling the truth in using certain language.

For example , one person , a male or female, is not a them or they. It's like saying one is the same as two. 

Want to be correct in the language, the language, the language, the language.

People are adding all these other social facets. My point has no interest, concern or relevancy to that.
I've read your posts, it's obvious that you have no interest in the correct use of language.

So that is not why.  

Why can't you just be honest?
Topic's author
#28
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 398
Posts: 1,937
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@Sidewalker
Hereeeee we go again. The best response you got. Folks when they can't counter, they just go off somewhere else.

I even demonstrated an example of what I'm talking about regarding the correct language used with numbers in language.

Why can't you , you, you be honest and just say "yeah I see your point"?

People around here talking about their low IQ . Yes drop down to an elementary level. Even grade students understand 1 and 2 are not the same.
#29
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,356
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Mall
 I want to be correct and telling the truth in using certain language.

For example , one person , a male or female, is not a them or they. It's like saying one is the same as two. 
This has nothing to do with "telling the truth". All words are just sounds coming out of our mouths that mean whatever we say they mean, which is why language has evolved all throughout our history and will continue to do so.

So it's not a question of what words "really" mean, it's a question of why you are so insistent on refusing to address others how they wish to be addressed?
Topic's author
#30
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 398
Posts: 1,937
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@Double_R
So saying 1 being different than 2 is not telling the truth according to what you're conveying.

One person is not different than more than one person.

In regards to what people want to be called, how far are we going to go into a delusion suppressing physical facts?

Do we just draw the line at the first sign of pure harm?