Philosophy of Karl Marx - Dialectical Materialism - How it sees Capitalism...

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I wanted  for a long time to reach for the idea of dialectical materialism, but I was busy.

Now I finally found time to do great research on the idea of dialectical materialism, based on Karl Marx's view of Hegel's dialectical argument.

It might be difficult to understand at first, but later I will follow up with example which makes it easy to understand.

Lets first explore what is dialectical argument.

Dialectical argument is based on law of non-contradiction.

It is made of:
1. Thesis
2. Antithesis
3. Synthesis

Thesis is the first position, original position.

Antithesis presents contradiction to thesis.

If antithesis is true, the thesis is false.

If antithesis is false, thesis stands true.

Then a synthesis happens, where either antithesis is negated either thesis is negated.

If antithesis is negated, thesis stands true.

If thesis is negated, original position is false, which gives birth to new position different from the original one.

Synthesis either maintains original thesis either creates new thesis which is different from the original one.

Antithesis is negation of thesis.

Negation of antithesis is negation of negation.

So, by simple deduction, synthesis is one of these:
1. Negation of the negation while maintaining thesis
2. Negation of negation by changing thesis, creating new thesis
3. Negation of thesis while upholding antithesis, where antithesis becomes new thesis

Lets now look at the example, and how dialectical materialism sees capitalism.

Capitalists are seeking to get as rich as possible.

Workers are also trying to get as rich as possible.

There are limited resources in society.

Therefore, the more capitalists get rich, the less wealth is there left for workers.

1. Worker's wealth is thesis
2. Capitalist's wealth is antithesis, which increases at the expense of worker's wealth, which means at the expense of thesis.

One cannot increase without other decreasing.

Antithesis cannot increase without thesis decreasing, because they are in contradiction.

The synthesis only has 3 options:
1. Negation of worker's wealth, so abolishment of capitalism.
2. Negation of capitalist's wealth, so abolishment of capitalism.
3. Balance between capitalist's wealth and worker's wealth which makes it possible to maintain thesis and antithesis.

Karl Marx argues that both 1 and 2 lead to Communism, as it is not possible to abolish worker's wealth or capitalist's wealth without abolishing capitalism.

While Karl Marx concedes that option 3 maintains capitalism, he argues that option 3 is much harder to achieve than either option 1 or option 2.

This is because option 3 is the only thing maintaining capitalism in existence, and both workers and capitalists are actively working to abolish option 3 in their favor.

Then follows the famous negation of the negation.

Since survival of society is negated by its own contradiction which is capitalist's wealth being contradictive to worker's wealth, one must negate this negation, which means to negate capitalist's wealth, to produce a new thesis, a new society, a communist society that is not negated by any internal contradiction, where worker's wealth is not negated but upheld.

This new society must not have capitalist's wealth, therefore must negate capitalist's wealth.

Marx argues that crisis in capitalism is caused when capitalist's wealth prevails over worker's wealth, or when worker's wealth prevails over capitalist's wealth.

Since its impossible to keep them in balance all the time, crisis happens often which shakes foundations of society.

New society, society without contradiction, can only be society which is neither capitalist, nor feudal nor slavery.

So it must be society which either always maintains balance between capitalists and workers (government regulated economy)

Or 

It must be society without capitalist's wealth, which is Communism.

Since government regulated economy is, by nature, difficult to keep in check, since it often either leans to workers or to capitalists, it is not a good synthesis.

This leaves only Communism as the option.

Communism must, therefore be society without contradiction.

It must be a society entirely ruled by workers, as it cannot be a society entirely ruled by capitalists.

This means that workers dictate the distribution of means of production and of wealth, as opposed to capitalists dictating it.
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@Best.Korea
Then a synthesis happens, where either antithesis is negated either thesis is negated.

You are misunderstanding dialectical materialism here. Synthesis would be say you have 2 ideal competing. One  dominant ideal is Absolute capitalism, and the second Ideal is complete central control over the economy.

One side wouldn't be negated, there would be a type of synthesis of ideals where you would have a free market, but it would be regulated to constrain the excesses of capitalism.

You could also have say a child who wants a chocolate ice-cream and a vanilla ice-cream and those competing ideals could fight until you had a vanilla, chocolate swirl ice-cream.


This is a philosophical concept. You wouldn't see ideals like creationism vs evolution and come to a synthesis, but more of something on two powerful groups competing on how to properly run a country. I will give you a few examples. A while back the right saw comic-books as porn and very degenerate corrupting the minds of youth. The comic book companies also held a lot of power and didn't want to be shut down or regulated, so the synthesis of free speech and banning of comic books was the invention of the comic codes authority which is a type of self censorship by the industry.

Now days most people approve of Gay marriage, but back when Bill Clinton was in office you had fundamentalists who opposed Gay marriage and wielded a lot of power. They wanted to see the institution of marriage remain sacred. You also had Gay rights groups who had couples where partners struggled to make end of life decisions for each other or be on each others insurance and wanted equal marriage rights. The synthesis of Gay marriage and anti gay marriage was known as "Civil unions" which was the exact same thing as marriage but with a different word being used.

so synthesis is not about one side winning, it is just what can be predicted when two powerful forces are fighting over 2 opposite ideals. Marx used this as a tool to make predictions about the future for his readers.

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@WyIted
One side wouldn't be negated, there would be a type of synthesis of ideals where you would have a free market, but it would be regulated to constrain the excesses of capitalism.
This was already covered in possible synthesis outcomes.

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I wrote this because I soon plan to have a debate of Capitalism vs Communism.

One must prepare well, given that Communism is not exactly an existing system where capitalism is to some degree.
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@Best.Korea
There was some poor grammar in the sentence I highlighted but I am limiting this discussion to the specific sentence I quoted which is this;

Then a synthesis happens, where either antithesis is negated either thesis is negated.
If I am understanding this correctly you are stating that synthesis is where antithesis or thesis is negated, which wouldn't be true. If I am misunderstanding the sentence than feel free to clarify.

Synthesis means to kind of marry 2 things together.

This was already covered in possible synthesis outcomes.

You are pointing to an example I used to highlight a premise I made, we aren't discussing whether the example is true or not. So maybe the response is off topic. I would reread everything I wrote. When I read the writing of others, often times I will get out a pen and a paper and write out precisely what a person's argument is. In this case I am only concerning myself with a statement you made and not the over arching argument.
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@Best.Korea
wrote this because I soon plan to have a debate of Capitalism vs Communism.
good ideal

One must prepare well, given that Communism is not exactly an existing system where capitalism is to some degree.

No true Scotsmen fallacy that can be made by people who are fans of Austrian Economics by pointing out Laissez Faire capitalism has never been tried.

Both people would be incorrect as these things have been tried on small scales multiple times. The Laissez Faire examples were successful and the criticism are usually that it wouldn't scale well beyond small tribes. The true communism when tried has been done a few times post war with disastrous results. These societies also were small in scale but the power vacuum left by "true communism" meant the system did not last long.

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@WyIted
 In this case I am only concerning myself with a statement you made and not the over arching argument.
Okay, let me explain then.

"Then a synthesis happens, where either antithesis is negated either thesis is negated."

Antithesis is contradiction to thesis.

They by definition cannot both exist because existence of one excludes another.

So an increase of capitalist's wealth includes decrease of worker's wealth, excludes increase of worker's wealth, when the amount of wealth is limited.

And since amount of wealth is limited, the growth of antithesis means decrease of thesis.

Every increase in antithesis negates same amount of thesis, and complete realization of antithesis negates thesis completely.

Therefore, increase of capitalist's wealth negates increase in worker's wealth, due to them being mutually exclusive.

Thats the best I can explain it.

Now, I hope you read the complete text so you get the full picture.
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@WyIted
These societies also were small in scale but the power vacuum left by "true communism" meant the system did not last long.
Yes, the power vacuum is a common argument which goes into Communist dictatorship.

Which is why I will probably be arguing for Communist democracy.

The Laissez Faire examples were successful and the criticism are usually that it wouldn't scale well beyond small tribes.
Well, tribes arent exactly what one has in mind when defending capitalism, since tribes are not very competitive on a large scale, and wealth creation drives most of society past the point of tribe.
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@Best.Korea
o an increase of capitalist's wealth includes decrease of worker's wealth, excludes increase of worker's wealth, when the amount of wealth is limited.

And since amount of wealth is limited, the growth of antithesis means decrease of thesis.

Every increase in antithesis negates same amount of thesis, and complete realization of antithesis negates thesis completely.

Therefore, increase of capitalist's wealth negates increase in worker's wealth, due to them being mutually exclusive.

Thats the best I can explain it.

Now, I hope you read the complete text so you get the full picture

off topic


Antithesis is contradiction to thesis.
Correct.

There are 2 types of arguments though. You have cogent vs sound arguments. When 2 sides are arguing for policy positions than they will likely be making cogent sounding arguments not sound arguments and both sides are usually concerned about different things, so they may both in fact be correct. So a contradiction doesn't imply one side is correct and one incorrect only that they have different ideals about how things should be.

I think you are confusing cogent with sound. You can't have 2 opposite sound arguments. One has to be true and one false. Either the animal is a dog or not a dog, it can't be both. So contradiction would not make a side wrong.


They by definition cannot both exist because existence of one excludes another.
see above.  I suggest if you want to bring up a dialectical argument that you should understand it better first. I still use communist arguments to support libertarian positions in debates so I understand them very well and it would behoove you to fully understand what I am saying and really think about it before responding.



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@WyIted
Synthesis means to kind of marry 2 things together
No, thats a common misunderstanding of dialectical argument.

Two contradictive things, by definition, cannot both exist.

So there is no way to make them both exist.

Synthesis doesnt "marry the two", but either creates new thesis which is different from the previous one, either maintains original thesis by negating antithesis.

There is no way for both thesis and antithesis to be true, since one is by definition a negation of other, a contradiction to it.
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@WyIted
There are 2 types of arguments though. You have cogent vs sound arguments. When 2 sides are arguing for policy positions than they will likely be making cogent sounding arguments not sound arguments and both sides are usually concerned about different things, so they may both in fact be correct. So a contradiction doesn't imply one side is correct and one incorrect only that they have different ideals about how things should be.

I think you are confusing cogent with sound. You can't have 2 opposite sound arguments. One has to be true and one false. Either the animal is a dog or not a dog, it can't be both. So contradiction would not make a side wrong.
Do you know what is a logical contradiction?

"Sun exists" or "It is false that Sun exists".

They cannot both be true, even if two people hold these opposite views.
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@Best.Korea
    Synthesis means to kind of marry 2 things together

No, thats a common misunderstanding of dialectical argument.
here i a quote from study.com on dialectics

The simplest explanation of Hegel's dialectics is this: a thesis (an argument) is proposed, generating a counterargument, the antithesis. Much like in the scientific method, philosophers will need to take the merits of both the thesis and antithesis into account, creating a new thesis called the synthesis. The synthesis, as the new thesis, may generate a new counterargument/antithesis and so on



Two contradictive things, by definition, cannot both exist.
covered in my last post with zero rebuttals to my reasoning method.
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@WyIted
covered in my last post with zero rebuttals to my reasoning method.
I dont need to provide rebuttal to something irrelevant to the topic we are discussing.

We were discussing contradiction, where you provided examples of things which can both exist, hence not in contradiction.

Things in contradiction cannot both exist, otherwise it wouldnt be a contradiction.
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@Best.Korea
I dont need to provide rebuttal to something irrelevant to the topic we are discussing.

We were discussing contradiction, where you provided examples of things which can both exist, hence not in contradiction.

Things in contradiction cannot both exist, otherwise it wouldnt be a contradiction.
Already explained to you the difference between sound arguments and cogent ones. I will repost so you don't have to scroll up

There are 2 types of arguments though. You have cogent vs sound arguments. When 2 sides are arguing for policy positions than they will likely be making cogent sounding arguments not sound arguments and both sides are usually concerned about different things, so they may both in fact be correct. So a contradiction doesn't imply one side is correct and one incorrect only that they have different ideals about how things should be.


Just to check for understanding respond with one cogent argument and one sound argument and tell me which is which and why in your own words


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best korea- "two things in contradiction cannot exist"

me- *literally contradicts him*
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@WyIted
Already explained to you the difference between sound arguments and cogent ones.
As much as you would like to change the topic to whats not even being discussed, I really have no interest in debating irrelevant things right now.
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@WyIted
best korea- "two things in contradiction cannot exist"

me- *literally contradicts him*
Thats not a logical contradiction.

I am really done explaining at this point.
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@Best.Korea
you didn't mention logical contradiction in that specific post, also cogent arguments are logical and can be opposite arguments so you are still wrong.
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@WyIted
Communism works it just works
I agree for the sake of causing trouble

I will define booger-aids and so forth... and then use it against you! even though I was not asked to... :( notice me senpai

Note this is the easy version, Ill make a better argument tomorrow. "I've never done anything other than buy into or mock communism"But if you can't refute this then logically I'm write write?

Booger_aids is based on the law of my balls

Migrant workers travel to this country fleeing a cartel capitalism which has destroyed peace.
And as can be demonstrated by history capitalism gives advantage to smart cheats which degrade the physical health of others and other physical harms in history, tradition, and perpetuity. The more complex the system, the smarter the ruler who ends up taking control, and the harder it is to catch him and catch up across generations.

Communism is good and when a person must choose between good and evil you should always choose the good.
Starvation, death, rape occur on the part of a cruel capitalistic society
do not even think of trying tu quo que. :)

A baker will not know his affinity for baking until he is given this job, and if he does not fit the state will move him.
Take the factory workers and make them bread makers, then we will all eat.
You may point to the problem of the grain the tiller the machine worker the machine maker, but we will find those men and fill those positions with men
the state can right now fix starvation, and the water and the collection, distribution, processing, we have many men who will find physical good in their simple life for the state

The state can employ police and ensure the domestic tranquility. 
The needs of men are simple, they are physical.

We will fulfill those simple needs and prosper as a nation.

I am not arguing that it is good on this basis, but it deserves a fair hearing when we have seen what Mr. Capitalism can do.




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@Godblessus
I think you tagged the wrong person. Those quotes are not mine.
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@WyIted
Sorry I accidently misquoted you. While breaking down your arguement

I wanted to sum up communism in a humorous fashion. I couldn't decide if I wanted to double team best Korea or bolster his argument by attacking you at a different angle.

As I broke down your arguments and did my own Wikipedia research I started to realize that workers owning the means of production is a joke, because there are no unmoved movers, and means is also stupid because silver in China used by a company from america cannot be incorporated logically if America becomes communist. And when the judge comes along and redistributes he takes ownership, then when he gives it all to each person time makes that robin hood act dumb because that's private ownership among individuals. 

The only way it happens is everyone turns off their brain and makes a pile of everything that they consider the common good. Anyone smart enough to point out marriage and children or a person having hands is individual private ownership and those who point this out would have to be killed. 

Then all you have is a belief system asserted by mob violence and tradition. What a waste

Workers are individuals. Any inability to see that is satanic and stupid. I'm not sharing my pension with a robot or a screwdriver.

Nor the human equivalent of one.
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Watch FEUD: Capote Vs. The Swans, to see how rich people live.