A discussion on the trinity - Holy Ghost Father Son

Author: Mall
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#31
DavidAZZ
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@Mall
According to the scripture it isn't money that is the root but the love of it that is the root .
Correct.

So if I understand what you're saying, the Catholic Church made up a false doctrine or something false to worship to get pagans to join in under the guise

Christianity in order to appear compliant with the emperor's law of only permitting Christianity for the sake of money I guess the pagans would pay up.
Eh, more or less. 

The Trinitarian doctrine was in the works for a while but the decree made it canon.  

The whole money thing can go for all fake Christians and charlatans.  They really pumped pastoral authority into their letters from about 80 A.D. to be able to push any wrong doctrine.  Compromising for the sake of money is nothing new.  The early church starting letting misc pagan practices in their churches for this reason.  Also, keep in mind there was no Bible as we know it until about 130 AD and even then about only 3% of the population could read, so many of the church goers had to rely on a preacher to help teach right from wrong.  This setup evil men to abuse their position as a pastor or bishop.

#32
DavidAZZ
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@Mall
1 John 5 and 7
When you are indoctrinated with Trinitarianism, this means 3 people are in heaven, but let's look at it from context.

The scripture before hand was talking about would be saved and who actually loves God.  Then is gets into who "bears record".  The translation is referring to "who can testify in heaven".  So if the scripture is talking about who will be saved and who can testify this, then we can say that God himself can, the Blood of Jesus (baptism) or the power of God can testify this of us, meaning that those three "things" will testify that we are saved.

It is not talking about salvation and then gets into a quick lesson about who God is, nor does it say it's 3 persons.
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#33
Mall
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@DavidAZZ
I don't believe the text says "there are three things" . At least not in the translation I've read.

You're calling three that bear record "things".

The verse doesn't say "who can testify" , although it identifies what the three are. So I can see how or why you're throwing the "who" in there.

It just says "there are three" , "these three are one".

I've been asking someone, these three what?

Instead of answering that, it is some dissertation of a response.

This individual trying to contend for the faith, be prepared to give an answer to every man.




#34
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@Mall
I don't believe the text says "there are three things" . At least not in the translation I've read.
Sorry.  My use of things was referring to 3 objects are being referred to and not necessarily persons.

I've been asking someone, these three what?
I'm curious to know what your answer would be.

#35
Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
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@Mall


Mall,

YOUR QUOTE REGARDING THE TRIUNE DOCTRINE:  "My question is ..these three what?"

Didn't you read my easily understood post where I told you about the definition of the Trinity Doctrine herewith: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/10392/posts/423508

Simply put, Jesus is God (Titus 2:13) where He is the Father as God, the Son as  God, and the Holy Spirit is God, but yet they are one divine individual! 2+2=4.

NEXT?

.
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#36
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@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
They means more than one . So more than one what?

Just answer that with one word. Very simple.
#37
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@Mall


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Mall,

YOUR QUOTE AGAIN: "They means more than one . So more than one what? Just answer that with one word. Very simple."

Jesus and I are sorry that your reading comprehension is not up to par, ONCE AGAIN; more than one 3 divine individuals equaling one is your answer!

Now, I am not going to tell you again, but simply read the very simple Trinity Doctrine definition that I have proposed in the link below, therefore, NO MORE DUMBFOUNDED QUESTIONS FROM YOU, VERY SIMPLE!  GET IT?!

READ THIS AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN UNTIL IT MAKES SENSE TO YOU:  https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/10392/posts/423508

.

#38
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@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
Tradesecret wrote:  “The Trinity - as in the Word Trinity - is not mentioned in the Bible. So what?”

Mr.BrotherD.Thomas wrote:  Okay, so what if the word "Trinity" is not mentioned within the Bible, where in fact the "concept of the Trinity Doctrine" is mentioned within the Bible as implied in Matthew’s Jesus inspired passage herewith: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” (Matthew 28:19) [...........................]
Barring the word “Trinity,” the Trinity Doctrine is mentioned specifically within the scriptures .

Indeed Brother D. There are many verses that indicate this to be so , but I am far too bone idle to highlight them all for the bible dunce the Reverend Tradesecret.


Tradesecret wrote:  “The Trinity was around before the Roman Catholic Churches.”


Mr.BrotherD.Thomas wrote: WRONG AS USUAL!  LOL!  Roman Catholicism traces its history to Jesus during the period of Roman occupation in the early 30’s CE!  This was a period of years after Jesus' life and death in 34 CE when His followers spread out across the world to form a “universal church" with the bishop of Rome holding primacy (Catholicism).”

Therefore, the Trinity Doctrine of Christianity ONLY came about at the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE, approximately 300 years subsequent to Catholic Churches came into being where Miss Tradesecret LIED in saying in her quote above that the Triune Doctrine was around before the Roman Catholic Churches! NOT!  LOL!
Correct again Brother D.

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#39
Mall
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@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas
"more than one 3 divine individuals"

Still being vague. It's almost like you're apprehensive to be specific because it isn't written.

"NO MORE DUMBFOUNDED QUESTIONS FROM YOU, VERY SIMPLE! GET IT?"

Scriptures teaches about being prepared to give an answer to every man.

So I'll ask this time. Three individual what?

In others words in great plainness of speech, what is the physical or non physical nature of the three?

Three divine individual what?

#40
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@Mall
Mall, wrote @ Brother D. Thomas:  So I'll ask this time. Three individual what? [................................]Just answer that with one word. Very simple

Entities?






#41
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@Mall
Yes the son prayed to the father.

[A]  What was your point on mentioning that?

And who was "the father" that Jesus was praying to?


I'll answer with Deuteronomy 6:4. Hear O Israel , The LORD our God, the LORD is one

 So are you then  telling me that "the father"  is god?  Yes or No ?


I could tell you that but I 'll let 1 Corinthians 8:6 tell you, there is but ONE GOD the father.

So your answer is then - God.

And Christians are of the belief that Jesus is god. Hence Jesus was praying in the garden to himself.  That was my point on mentioning that. See your question at [A]  above.


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#42
Mall
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@Stephen
Was the son praying to himself or the Father?
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#43
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@Stephen
It appears you're guessing. If you don't know what the three are, just say that.
#44
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@Mall
Yes the son prayed to the father.

[A]  What was your point on mentioning that?

And who was "the father" that Jesus was praying to?


I'll answer with Deuteronomy 6:4. Hear O Israel , The LORD our God, the LORD is one

 So are you then  telling me that "the father"  is god?  Yes or No ?


I could tell you that but I 'll let 1 Corinthians 8:6 tell you, there is but ONE GOD the father.

So your answer is then - God.

And Christians are of the belief that Jesus is god. Hence Jesus was praying in the garden to himself.  That was my point on mentioning that. See your question at [A]  above.

Was the son praying to himself or the Father?

Well what does your bible say?  Lets look.
"After walking a little farther, he quickly bowed with his face to the ground and prayed, “Father, if it’s possible, let this cup ⌞of suffering⌟ be taken away from me. But let your will be done rather than mine!.Matthew 26:39

So above the bible clearly states that Jesus was paring to the father. You tell us that God is the Father. While the Christian belief is that Jesus is god, hence Jesus was praying to himself. If Jesus is not god then this would certainly contradict the Christian belief, wouldn't it?

It appears you're guessing. If you don't know what the three are, just say that.

 Wat is it that you believe I am guessing?  Either Jesus is praying to god , or he isn't.


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#45
Mall
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@Stephen
No you said "entities?"

Was that a guess or do you know?
#46
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@Mall
No you said "entities?"

Was that a guess or do you know?


See below.  A question was posed.



Mall, wrote @ Brother D. Thomas:  So I'll ask this time. Three individual what? [................................]Just answer that with one word. Very simple #36

Entities?#40

So again. A question was posed.

 I  suggested a answer with the one word reply as requested #40  

So how about you stop running in circles and reply to what I have written?

The bible says Jesus prayed to the  " Father".
You say the "father" is god;
Christians believe Jesus to be god.

[A]    Either Jesus is praying to god. 
OR
[B]  Jesus was praying to himself.

Which is it? 

Either way, he didn't get an answer nor did he get " relieved of his burden" in his terrifying hour of need, did he?  Some serious loss of faith from the son of god messiah and saviour, if you ask me.  So much for the "mustard seed" size faith.

Just my opinion of course.








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#47
Mall
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@Stephen
I already gave you scripture that gives you the answers. 
It's not running in circles, it's running to the scriptures. 

Now if you don't want to accept that, remain lost in ignorance.

Either way on this subject, we're gonna talk scripture because this subject is based on it. It's not based on personal opinion.

That's how all this gets twisted up going by what people think and guessing by placing question marks by their responses.
#48
Mr.BrotherDThomas
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@Mall


Mall,

YOUR QUOTE AGAIN IN NOT UNDERSTANDING THE TRINITY DOCTRINE IN FRONT OF THE MEMBERSHIP!!!:  "In others words in great plainness of speech, what is the physical or non physical nature of the three?"

Listen up Mall, BE BIBLE STUPID on your own time, and not mine anymore, understood?

READ THE DEFINITION of the Trinity Doctrine AGAIN, and AGAIN, and AGAIN, and AGAIN, and AGAIN until you understand it as shown below, GET IT?

THE TRINITY DOCTRINE OF JESUS THE CHRIST IN A SIMPLE FORM OF UNDERSTANDING:
When Jesus was praying to Himself, a TRUE Christian like myself accepts that the Trinity Doctrine of Jesus is that He is the Father as God, the Son as  God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Barring that these three divine persons are distinct from one another: the Father is not the Son, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit.  However, there is exactly one God (1 Timothy 2:5).  Therefore, very simply put,  Christ is His own Father and His own Son. The Holy Ghost is neither Father nor Son, but both in spirit. The Son was begotten by the Father, but existed before He was begotten. Christ is just as old as his Father, and the Father is just as young as his Son. The Holy Ghost proceeded from the Father and Son, but He is of the same age as the Father and Son!  To further the Godly Triune premise, the Father is Almighty, the Son is Almighty, and the Holy Ghost is Almighty, but yet there are not three Almighty's but one Almighty. Barring that it is plainly seen that we have three Almighty's, and at the same time, one Almighty! The Triune creed further informs us that the three persons in the Trinity are co-eternal together and coequal. The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Ghost is eternal, and yet there are not three eternally, but one eternal. The plain English is, that the three persons in the Trinity are three eternally, and individually considered, and yet they are not three eternally, but one eternal! 


NEXT BIBLE FOOL LIKE "MALL" THAT DOESN'T UNDERSTAND THE TRINITY DOCTRINE AFTER IT WAS EASILY EXPLAINED TO HIM AS SHOWN ABOVE, WILL BE ...?

.




#49
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@Mall

The bible says Jesus prayed to the  " Father".
You say the "father" is god;
Christians believe Jesus to be god.

[A]    Either Jesus is praying to god. 
OR
[B]  Jesus was praying to himself.

Which is it? 

Either way, he didn't get an answer nor did he get " relieved of his burden" in his terrifying hour of need, did he?  Some serious loss of faith from the son of god messiah and saviour, if you ask me.  So much for the "mustard seed" size faith.
Just my opinion of course.

I already gave you scripture that gives you the answers. 
Nope.

You gave me none answers and based them on ambiguous  biblical verses contradictory to Christian belief of the trinity.  Still, have it you way.

Off you go now. 


#50
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@Stephen


Stephen,

What the hell is Mall's problem in understanding the Trinity Doctrine as I have personally shown in my post #48 above?!  He is embarrassing himself in front of the membership for asking a "plethora" of questions over and over and over and over AGAIN when all he has to do is read my godly definition of the Trinity!   

Is Mall vying to TRY and be more Bible Stupid than Miss Tradesecret?  Look at the members of this Religion Forum now and in the past that tried to do this ungodly act, we can't begin to count them all!  LOL

.
#51
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@Mr.BrotherDThomas
Mr.BrotherDThomas  wrote @Mall: 

  THE TRINITY DOCTRINE OF JESUS THE CHRIST IN A SIMPLE FORM OF UNDERSTANDING:
When Jesus was praying to Himself, a TRUE Christian like myself accepts that the Trinity Doctrine of Jesus is that He is the Father as God, the Son as  God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Barring that these three divine persons are distinct from one another: the Father is not the Son, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit.  However, there is exactly one God (1 Timothy 2:5).  Therefore, very simply put,  Christ is His own Father and His own Son. The Holy Ghost is neither Father nor Son, but both in spirit. The Son was begotten by the Father, but existed before He was begotten. Christ is just as old as his Father, and the Father is just as young as his Son. The Holy Ghost proceeded from the Father and Son, but He is of the same age as the Father and Son!  To further the Godly Triune premise, the Father is Almighty, the Son is Almighty, and the Holy Ghost is Almighty, but yet there are not three Almighty's but one Almighty. Barring that it is plainly seen that we have three Almighty's, and at the same time, one Almighty! The Triune creed further informs us that the three persons in the Trinity are co-eternal together and coequal. The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Ghost is eternal, and yet there are not three eternally, but one eternal. The plain English is, that the three persons in the Trinity are three eternally, and individually considered, and yet they are not three eternally, but one eternal! 

Eye watering, Brother D. 


What the hell is Mall's problem in understanding the Trinity Doctrine as I have personally shown in my post #48 above?!  He is embarrassing himself in front of the membership for asking a "plethora" of questions over and over and over and over AGAIN when all he has to do is read my godly definition of the Trinity!   

I don't know Brother. 

I wonder what his reply is to Jesus calling out to himself on the cross, "why have you forsaken me dad, me, all three of us"?


#52
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@Stephen



Stephen,

YOUR RATIONAL THINKING QUOTE RELATIVE TO JESUS IN THE TRINITY DOCTRINE TO "MALL":  "I wonder what his reply is to Jesus calling out to himself on the cross, "why have you forsaken me dad, me, all three of us"?"

YES, any TRUE Christian should understand your statement above with ease!  Mall, on the other hand, seemingly is reading too much "hearsay" that he has ungodly learned into the Trinity Doctrine, where the simple approach as I have shown in my post #48 is to be followed!  DUH!

. 
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#53
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@Stephen
Don't be like that way .

Just a conversation comrade.
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#54
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@Mr.BrotherDThomas
See because you're not answering the questions and giving dissertations, we're not reasoning together.

For instance I ask people, there are three that bear record, these three what?

Person comes back with a basic flat answer " these three titles". 

See how straight to the cut that is. They may say "these three persons".

But I believe you're not responding that way so you don't incriminate yourself. See because I'm going to ask you to read it. Read whatever you say in 1 John 5.

Instead I just get a rehearsed explanation I guess or an essay on the trinity doctrine instead of being prepared to give an answer to every man as the book teaches. 
You give an answer to what the question is specifically asking. These three what?

Nobody thus far in this thread has answered at least without guessing.
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#55
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These three what?

Nobody thus far in this thread has answered at least without guessing.

I mean NOBODY.

#56
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@Mr.BrotherDThomas
Stephen  wrote:
"I wonder what his reply is to Jesus calling out to himself on the cross, "why have you forsaken me dad, me, all three of us"?"

Mr.BrotherDThomas wrote: YES, any TRUE Christian should understand your statement above with ease!  Mall, on the other hand, seemingly is reading too much "hearsay" that he has ungodly learned into the Trinity Doctrine, where the simple approach as I have shown in my post #48 is to be followed!  DUH!
Well as shown above, Brother D. I offered a "one word" answer as Mall had requested HERE>  #40.  I could have used the word - dimensions.

Did you notice I had no reply to this simply question that I  then posed to Mall?

[ 1] The bible says Jesus prayed to the  " Father".
[ 2]You (MALL) say the "father" is god;
[ 3]Christians believe Jesus to be god.

[A]    Either Jesus is praying to god. [in the garden of Gethsemane]
OR
[B]  Jesus was praying to himself. [in the garden of Gethsemane]

Which is it? 

And as I raised the above a question it raised another along the same lines.
Who was Jesus addressing when he is said to have cried out on the cross keeping in mind  1,2 &3  the above?

"My god why have you forsaken me"? MATTHEW 27:46

Was Jesus crying out to himself? 



 

#57
Tradesecret
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@DavidAZZ
You are not completely wrong in this statement.  At the time of it's official conception, the Trinitarian doctrine in Nicaea, the Catholic church still had many members believing in God and Jesus as Christ.  So for them to completely turn God into a Triune God overnight and to make it so apparent, would be disastrous.  So they had to twist certain doctrines to still sound Biblical and appease the pagan masses too.
Wow! The dogma is strong with this one.  Just to be clear. No twisting of doctrines. And no appeasing or appealing to the pagan masses.  The Trinity is eternal. There is nothing quite like the One and the Many.  It is a brilliant concept even as it reflects the only Perfect God. 

For instance, look at the Vedic god system.  There are thousands of gods in their system.  But the main three are Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva a triune God.
Thousands of Gods?  An immediate break from what the Trinity teaches. ONE GOD. Not a trinity of Gods. ONE GOD. The Vedic god system is nothing like the Trinity. 

How about the Greek mythology?  Dionysus was a God of wine (Jesus turned water into wine), he was born of an earthly mother and a divine father (Zeus).  He was also followed by bands of people and later lamented at his death.
Oh Wow! A god that likes wine is what somehow like Jesus?  You must be joking. Seriously.  Jesus is not a god of wine. LOL @ even the comparison. Simply nuts. Yes, Jesus did have an earthly mother. But the Son of God, the second member of the Trinity HAD NO MOTHER.  He is eternally begotten.  

How about the Egyptian concept of Gods?  Did you know their idea of a spirit of a man (ba) is depicted as a bird?  Don't we see many depictions of God the Holy Ghost as a bird due to the vision of John the Baptist?
Yes, I've seen it.  But the Holy Spirit is not a bird. And this is not the intention. The Holy Spirit is not a dove. He alights as a dove. Metaphor. 

Point is, there are a lot of correlations you can make with the biblical Jesus with other Pagan deities of the time and area and to tell a pagan that the biblical God is just like their own would not be a stretch when you can drum up an idea like the trinity.
Anyone can make a correlation with anything. A correlation is simply an exercise that describes a mathematical formula painting a picture. We can actually posit a correlation between people who agree with you with people who don't agree with you. That is the magic of correlation. But what does it prove? It proves not much. Just that there is a relationship. And when it comes to Jesus, there will always be people who want to paint a relationship to someone like Jesus. He had a mother. he liked wine. he did miracles. He died. He rose again. And the same applies to the Trinity. It proves nothing. The fact is - the Trinity is both a simple concept and a complex one. the fact that most people can hardly grasp what the Trinity is - even in its simple form is telling. It's not just a copy from something else. To suggest it is - begs the question. 


Yet the concept of the Trinity is inherent from the Creation through to the last page of the NT.    The early Christians did argue over the concept. They needed to grapple with the truth that there is ONE GOD as the Deuteronomy passage articulates and then they needed to grapple with the person Jesus.  It also became clear during these discussions that the Holy Spirit was not the Father nor was he the Son.  Some people suggest he was just a power. Not a personality. Although Jesus made it clear that the Holy Spirit was a person and had a personality. You can't grieve a power. You can't lie to a power. Yes, both of these terms could just be anthropomorphisms.  And yet the Church determined otherwise. 
For one, which "church" decided this?  Have you read the early church fathers?  Keep in mind also that the victor of war gets to write the history.  The catholic has always tried to say that their church was the first and Peter the first pope.  They tried (in vain) to wipe out the history of a true church throughout history.  There a snippets here and there where "Oneness" people thrived before the Catholics tried to do away with them.  In fact, the church at Rome was Oneness until about 200 A.D.  You will find a little paper trail from one popular catholic father to another before Constantine that is quite a tangled web.  Pretty interesting actually.
The church which counts.  Yes, I have read the church fathers. And the question of the victor. Really. what a convenient excuse not to believe the truth? The Roman Catholic Church is not the only church. The Orthodox Church also agrees with it - and so does the Protestant church -which opposed the Catholic Church. I don't have to agree with the Roman Catholic Church to see that the Trinity is true. It's evident in the Scriptures. 

I do believe the reference of the Holy Ghost is God's use of power.  See it with every scripture that it is used, such as the overshadowing of Mary.  She was found to be child of the Holy Ghost.  This would mean that God the Father would NOT be the father in the simplest sense.  But if we see the spirit of God working in situations, then it's easy to understand John chapter 14 and how Mary would be found child by the power of God.
Of course you do, what a surprise?  But you miss the points of personality. how do you grieve a power? It's not possible. 


The Trinity was around before the Roman Catholic Churches. It was not their invention. 
True again.  The concept of a Trinity was around before the church ever began, but later integrated into the dogma, per my post above with Mall and you.

Also, for reference, when I mention the Catholic church, I am not referring to the official Catholic church as I understand it was not truly formed for hundreds of years after Christ, but the Catholic church did come this ground work, so I use it as a way to delineate the true church and the false church.


The reason the Trinity was around before the Roman Catholic Church may be for at least two reasons: 

It was as you suggest taken from the pagan religions, or

because it was true and taken from the Jewish religion. 

don't forget that when Abraham was around - three so called angels appeared - looking like men. Each of them - took on the role of the LORD in their words and their attitude.  

It's a simple picture but it actually provides an interesting picture. why were there three so called people looking like men? And how does it relate to TRINITY?




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#58
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@Mr.BrotherDThomas
Now you're supposed to know the bible is that right brother?

Let's see whether you can answer this question.

In order for a person to be saved, to be saved now, does the person have to be baptized in the name of the father, son , holy spirit or baptized in the name of Jesus Christ?
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Mr.BrotherDThomas
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@Mall

Mall,

YOUR BIBLE DUMBNESS QUOTE IS EQUAL TO MISS TRADESECRET'S INEPT BIBLE STUPIDITY: "In order for a person to be saved, to be saved now, does the person have to be baptized in the name of the father, son , holy spirit or baptized in the name of Jesus Christ?"

You are to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ!  "Peter told the crowd, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38). "  

Do you want call Peter a LIAR in the verse above? HUH?  Jesus equals the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in the verse above!  GET IT BIBLE DUNCE®️?! 


NEXT MEMBER LIKE THE BIBLE DUNCE "MALL" OF THIS RELIGION FORUM THAT SIMPLY DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THE DEFINITION OF THE TRINITY DOCTRINE THAT I HAVE SHOWN IN THIS LINK;  https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/10392/posts/423939 , WILL BE...? 

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#60
Mr.BrotherDThomas
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@DavidAZZ


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David AZZ,

You have to remember, when dealing with this Religion Forum's #1 Bible STUPID fool, Miss Tradesecret, she LIES and makes stuff up on her erronious HEARSAY accountings of the JUDEO-Christian Bible, where 99% of the time, she does NOT give chapter and verst to support her otherwise Bible Duncery®️!

Case in point of her embarrassment AGAIN, Miss Tradesecret in LYING AGAIN when she states: "The reason the Trinity was around before the Roman Catholic Church may be for at least two reasons:" https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/10392/posts/423691  where I have already corrected her LYING NOTION as shown  herewith:  https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/10392/posts/423670

Why do you waste your time with Miss Tradesecret Bible STUPIDITY is beyond reason!

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