Are those atheists right? Did existence came from nothing?

Author: Best.Korea

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By law of logic,

"Every thing has a cause."

As long as "cause" is also a thing, it follows that each such cause needs its own cause.

So where is the beginning? The beginning can only be that which isnt caused.

Therefore, the only true beginning can be "nothing".

"Nothing" doesnt require a cause, since its not a thing.

But nothing can create something. In this exchange, "nothing" stops existing and "something" is created.

Therefore, first existence could only come from nothing. It couldnt come from "something", because first existence is first "something".
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"Every thing has a cause."
I'm going to regret posting this cause I really don't want two separate conversations going at once, but, as I said in my reply on your post about God's relationship to logic, this statement is simply false.

According to the PSR (principal of sufficient reason) NOT everything needs a cause, but everything needs an explanation for it's existence. There are therefore two types of entities that exist. Contingent and Necessary. A contingent entity is one who's existence is explained by another. It depends on something outside itself for it's existence. 

A Necessary entity does not depend on an outside agent. It's explanation for it's existence is found in itself. 

I can provide some analogies to give you an example if you're interested
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@Morphinekid77
I'm going to regret posting this
I agree.

According to the PSR (principal of sufficient reason) NOT everything needs a cause
"The principle of sufficient reason states that everything must have a reason or a cause."


A Necessary entity does not depend on an outside agent. It's explanation for it's existence is found in itself.
Thats a religious way of saying that God doesnt have reason to exist, or that God is the reason that God exists.

So no, Christians cannot explain the existence of God without using circular logic and violating the law of logic which says that everything needs a cause.
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@Best.Korea
Thats a religious way of saying that God doesnt have reason to exist, or that God is the reason that God exists.
Just because you don't like the explanation doesn't mean it isn't true 

So no, Christians cannot explain the existence of God without using circular logic and violating the law of logic which says that everything needs a cause.
Accept there is no law of logic which states that. You're literally making it up. Find me any logic text book or authoritative reference that says this. 

If you want to understand the difference between contingent and necessary entities look into Aquina's argument from motion

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@Morphinekid77
If you want to understand the difference between contingent and necessary
I already demonstrated it.

Nothing is necessary to bring first something into existence.

You're literally making it up.
I am making up that things must have a reason or a cause?

Well, looks like that wikipedia article agrees with me.
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@Morphinekid77
Just because you don't like the explanation doesn't mean it isn't true
Explanation without explanation.

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@Morphinekid77
A Necessary entity does not depend on an outside agent. It's explanation for it's existence is found in itself. 
Placing a label on an incoherent concept doesn't make it any more coherent.

Existence itself is a concept based within a temporal framework. Something cannot coherently exist for 0 seconds, or negative 5 seconds.

The word responsible necessarily denotes a temporal relationship, i.e. A -> B, which means A necessarily occured before B.

To say A is responsible for A is to say that A came before A, which is logically contradictory and therefore not a justifiable statement.
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it looks like the universe is an effect. can the universe be an uncaused caused? yes, but it doesn't look like it. can something that caused the universe be an uncaused cause? yes, that's possible, and even if there's an infinite chain of cause and effect before the universe, it's an uncaused cause, a fortiori, and is still the cause of the universe. 
maybe 'god' doesn't necessarily answer the question when it gets to specifics, but to think something caused the universe, is, in short, fair and the most reasonable conclusion. 
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talking about necessary and contingent and such is philosophy. it might be true or not true. but when we look at the science, such as theormodynamics, the philophy starts to make sense. like i said, it looks, scientifically, like something other than the universe, caused the universe. 
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@Double_R
the only logical conclusion from your arguments is that the universe came from nothing. you act surprised when people reject that idea. 
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@n8nrgim
I reject it as well, because it's just as incoherent as its alternative. Therefore the only justifiable response to this question is "I don't know".

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@Double_R
that's fair enough, i dont know, and possibly the best answer, but i think it's fair to have an opinion and then defend it. 
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@Double_R
To say A is responsible for A is to say that A came before A, which is logically contradictory and therefore not a justifiable statement.
Agreed, however that's not how we would phrase the argument. It would make more sense to say that A has the "principle" of "A-ness" within itself. Therefore A explains A. 

How this relates to God, creation, or anything of the sort, I'll give you a standard analogy. 

Suppose we have a train car (Train car 1) in motion. And I ask you, why is train car 1 moving?

And you answer, because it's being pulled by train car 2. 

I then ask you, why is train car two moving? And you answer because it's being pulled by train car 3. 

This goes on for infinity. 

If this were to go on for infinity, we never actually arrive at an explanation for why the train cars are moving. Because the "answer" just keeps getting pushed back one.

In order to explain the motion of the train cars, the buck has to stop at an entity that has the principle of motion within itself. 

That's the engine car. The engine car has the principle of motion within itself, therefore, it is a sufficient explanation for why the train cars are moving. 

In our train analogy, the cars are contingent entities. Their motion is explained by an entity outside themselves. The engine car is the necessary entity. It's motion is not explained by an entity outside itself, it's sufficient to move itself. 

Now replace train cars and motion, for any given entity and existence.

Why does entity A exist? It exists because of entity B. Why does entity B exist? It exists because of entity C. 

Again, if this goes on for infinity, we never arrive at an explanation. 

We need to stop at an entity that has the principle of existence within itself. That, we would call God. 


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@Best.Korea
This universe may be  the current  reincarnation, in an infinite/finite sequence of universal reincarnations.

Why?

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@Morphinekid77
That's the engine car. The engine car has the principle of motion within itself, therefore, it is a sufficient explanation for why the train cars are moving. 
If someone has never heard of an engine or understood how an engine works, telling them that the engine car "has the principle of motion within itself" is not an explanation because it doesn't explain anything. In order for something to qualify as an explanation it has to add clarity, which is why we can only explain things by referring to other things that we already understand.

If I pulled a rabbit out of my hat and you asked me how I did it, "magic" would not be an explanation because magic itself has no qualities which we understand.

Likewise, "having the quality of existence" does absolutely nothing to explain why anything exists nor does it address the logical contradictions I pointed out.

We need to stop at an entity that has the principle of existence within itself. That, we would call God. 
This argument could very easily be used to support pantheism. There is nothing about the need to start somewhere which necessitates starting with some sort of personal creator. The universe itself could very easily be the entity with the "principal of existence".

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@Double_R
As much as I like to assume magic,

There is no explanation as to how God exists.

The only explanation could be that God was created from nothing, which then means anything else could have been created from nothing as well.

The only thing that doesnt need a cause is "nothing". 

Now, I dont claim to know any answer for sure. We cant go back to the beginning of existence to establish facts.

But anyone using God as an explanation for all cannot explain why or how God exists.
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@Best.Korea
He exists because he has the principal of existence within him. Duh.
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@Best.Korea

Whoever said, “You can’t get something from nothing” must never have learned quantum physics. As long as you have empty space — the ultimate in physical nothingness — simply manipulating it in the right way will inevitably cause something to emerge. In 1951, Julian Schwinger, already a co-founder of the quantum field theory that describes electrons and the electromagnetic force, gave a complete theoretical description of how matter could be created from nothing: simply by applying a strong electric field. Although others had proposed the idea back in the 1930s, including Fritz Sauter, Werner Heisenberg, and Hans Euler, Schwinger himself did the heavy lifting to quantify precisely under what conditions this effect should emerge, and henceforth it’s been primarily known as the Schwinger effect.
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@FLRW
there's 'nothing' and then there's 'nothing'. in the vaccum of space, there is a lot of nothing to the layman, but scientists know there's quanta out there. but what exists outside the universe? what everyone is circling around, is that some say that's a non sense question, but others point out that at least philosophically, maybe it isn't. you point out only the nothing of what we know of can produce something... but can the nothing of what we dont know produce something? 
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@n8nrgim
that's fair enough, i dont know, and possibly the best answer, but i think it's fair to have an opinion and then defend it. 
If it is the best answer then accepting any other answer is not logically justifiable.
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@n8nrgim

"Do you think God stays in Heaven because he too lives in fear of what he's created?"
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@FLRW
God either doesnt exist either he is very good at hiding.

Playing peekaboo for 2000 years instead of simply showing himself and clearing confusion.
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@Double_R

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@Double_R
"If it is the best answer then accepting any other answer is not logically justifiable."

a few things wrong with that idea. one is that you yourself seem pretty keen on not sticking to it... you are clearly defending the atheist view point. also, if someone has a hypothesis and not the truth established... it's fair and actually good to argue back and forth about the hypothesis, for what you suspect the truth is. 
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@Double_R
you are good at getting deep philosophically... but in simple terms, why is it so unreasonable to think something other than the universe, caused the universe? i know you dont like the idea because it's outside of what we can objectively know based on what we currently accept as reality, but i guess my question is, dont you think a reasonable person can think something other than the universe caused the universe? 

also another thing we've all been circling around, there's 'accepting' something as objective truth, and there's accepting something as a running hypothesis, and there's aceepting something as debateably the best hypothesis.
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i used to say it doesn't make sense for there to be nothing and then an infinite something, like we currently see. how can something be infinite in one direction and not the other, and how can that play out such that it happens to be our reality when it seems like it should have run its course by now? but the thing is, if 'uncaused causes' are possible, then maybe the universe is an uncaused cause, and all my quibbles are what uncaused causes look like. 


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@n8nrgim

 Astronomers estimate the number of stars in the universe, which is about 200 sextillion (200,000,000,000,000,000,000). Did the Creators know that it would take that many stars for life to be accidently created on one planet?
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@FLRW
i dont know that question is relevant to this debate, but i suspect as do most scientists that there's life out there in the distant universe, if not in our own solar system. that's the conventional wisdom, actually. as a theist, suspect something must be special about life theologically for it to be as rare as it looks... but this is just me musing as a theist. 
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@n8nrgim
a few things wrong with that idea. one is that you yourself seem pretty keen on not sticking to it... you are clearly defending the atheist view point.
Correct, but the atheist viewpoint is not "the universe came from nothing" or whatever version of that you apply. The atheist position is "I don't believe a god exists", which says absolutely nothing about what one does believe. Therefore "I don't know" (my actual position) fits into atheism.

there's 'accepting' something as objective truth, and there's accepting something as a running hypothesis, and there's aceepting something as debateably the best hypothesis.
To justify a belief/proposition as reasonable is to establish that the proposition is more likely or more plausibly true than any other alternative.

When it comes to explaining existence, that is in my view not logically possible because the laws of logic themselves break down once we get to the most basic question there is: why is there something rather than nothing?

If the answer is a nothing, that contradicts the concept of nothing - self contradictory.

If the answer is a something, that means something is responsible for itself - self contradictory.

There is no third option, so we're stuck without an answer.

At this point it's just a matter of what you value. I value logic, so that which lies outside of it is irrelevant to me. If you value emotional satisfaction, then asserting an answer in defiance of logic may still serve your purpose.

From here it's up to you.
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Can the absence of something produce something? We don't enough info to think the nothing that we know of, with quanta, can produce the universe, but we thermodynamics still must be accounted for to explain how our universe came to be. We have a firm issue with my quibble and only speculation scientifically and philosophically with the atheist quibbke