Should Christians follow moral absolutism? Did Jesus follow moral absolutism?

Author: Best.Korea

Posts

Total: 34
Topic's author
#1
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,639
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
Now, I was thinking,

What would happen if someone accepted "Its wrong to kill others" as his moral value?

He would be banned from killing even in self defense. He wouldnt be able to kill anyone under any circumstance. 

Was this Jesus's morality while he was on Earth? Jesus did not kill any other person, but he did kill animals and he did damage property.

However, even when faced with torture and death, he refused to kill those who wanted to kill him.

So one must wonder, does Bible teach how self-defense is wrong?

And if so, why dont Christians follow that teaching?
#2
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Best.Korea
So one must wonder, does Bible teach how self-defense is wrong?


It depend on how Christians like to interpret the bible.... when it suites them to do so.BK

Jesus says we should love our enemies, forgive them and turn the other cheek.
This of course didn't stop the sword wielding disciple Simon Peter attacking the high priests servant and lopping off his lug hole. Although Jesus handed himself over peacefully.

#3
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,597
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@Best.Korea

Are you saying that all Christians should have bone spurs so they don't go into the military?
Topic's author
#4
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,639
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@FLRW
Well, Jesus was never in military.
#5
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,071
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Best.Korea
They didn't allow gays in the military back then.
Topic's author
#6
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,639
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@zedvictor4
All his disciples were males.

So he was either gay or sexist.
#7
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Best.Korea
Well, Jesus was never in military.

Well not that you'd know from reading the bible .....unless of course, one looks at it closely.

Mark 6:40 King James Version

And they sat down in ranks, by hundreds, and by fifties.

Mark 6:31 And he commanded them to make all sit down by companies

Couple this with the fact all his recruits  were from the bad lands of Galilee and all his disciples were Zealots, that hated Rome, Romans and anything Roman. And he ordered his disciples to arm themselves even if it meant selling the cloths of their backs to buy arms.

And it for verses like these  that I  have always maintained that there is another story just below the surface of the New Testamant.




#8
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,071
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Best.Korea
Yep.

Gay and sexist.
#9
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,071
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Stephen
Let's be honest.

There was what actually happened.

And then a book was written quite a while later.

Would have been daft to sell the hero as a baddie.
Topic's author
#10
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,639
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Stephen
Well, thats interesting, but I am kinda confused as to why he ordered them to arm themselves.

The only time sword was used was once, and Jesus then forbid further use.

It could be that Bible doesnt tell the whole story.
#11
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,205
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
-->
@zedvictor4
The book was written later.
Are we talking 500 years later Zed?    Was it. 

I really think that the above ummmm, "fact"  could make a good argument for the Christians. 

Actually 
I wonder when the christians "announced " the "adoption " of the first  bit of the "jewish" bible. 


I would like to know the approximate time between. 

The religion.  A Christian   ( being known by 2 peoples )  

The book.

The Clubhouse.

And the muslims time between 
The group being formed.
The book " coming out" 
The or a  clubhouse being built.

Oh and the jewish timeline.
The group 
The book
The clubhouse.  

The comparisons  of these numbers would be "telling" 
The "Telling" what im not sure buttttttt. 
It will look horrible for the theists. 

Soooooooooo
Im after
The aprox three times in the top 3 groups . ? 
From..........The group. 
( time until)
...................The book.
( time until ) 
 .....................The church .    / building / clubhouse 

Or if it was the church before the book. 

But I really have not been able to google it and get a clear response 




 

#12
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@zedvictor4
Would have been daft to sell the hero as a baddie.

Well for me, they did a bad job of hiding his true nature, Vic. 
He wasn't going to talk his way to the throne of Jerusalem, that's fact.
#13
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,597
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8

God can create a Human from dust, but he can't create a smartphone?
#14
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Best.Korea
Well, thats interesting, but I am kinda confused as to why he ordered them to arm themselves.

For the impending rebellion that he took part in. That the bible makes a poor attempt tries to hide.


The only time sword was used was once, and Jesus then forbid further use.

Well not quite. When  Simon removed the ear of the priests servant (depending on which version one chooses t believe) Jesus simply said "no more of this" Luke.
“Put your sword away! ". John.   "“Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword". Matthew.
All very good advice considering they were outnumbered at the time of his arrest. The bible tells us that it was a "cohort " of legionnaires + many of Harrods guards, and guards of servants of the chief priests.  So we can see they were certainly expecting a fight, what caused them to believe that they would  need nearly a thousand men to arrest a sandal wearing peaceful preacher?



It could be that Bible doesnt tell the whole story.

It doesn't BK

#15
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,071
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Stephen
Fact  is.

2.5 billion people across the globe don't agree.


Well, that's not exactly true.

Most of them have probably never even read the book.

Much preferring the fairy story they were told as kids.


#16
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,071
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Deb-8-a-bull
Actually.

Hindus come in at No3.

They missed out on all that magical middle eastern flying man stuff.

They've got a whole book  load of other crazy dudes to consider.

And they started considerably earlier.

So GODDO, more than likely is an Elephant with 6 arms.

What do you make of that Deb?

Go have a bath in the Ganges.

But watch out for the cremation debris.
#17
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@zedvictor4
Much preferring the fairy story they were told as kids.

 And understandable considering that their fathers, fathers, fathers, fathers, fathers, fathers, fathers, fathers fathers, fathers father had drummed it into them from birth. More interesting to me is that over the three synoptics particularly, they actually do spell it out between them. John's gospel fills in some of the gaps and links them all together.


Most of them have probably never even read the book.

Indeed. I have met many Priests that don't even know the basic story. Vic.  Not happy when a few biblical facts are pointed out to them. But they soldier on all the same. I believe its called - denial.

Have a good day my mate.
#18
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,205
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
-->
@FLRW
If god had a SMS messaging device 
Ya just know how bad Gods SMS would read hey ? 

For example FL.
You'd send god a sms like. 
Flrw .
Hi God , just seeing when you might be coming home this evening .

And god hits you back with. 

God : I will be Back after the falling one divides the path chosen.  
For the light shines bright still. 

Then you'd be like.

Ahhhhhhhhhrrrrrrrrrrr. 
FLRW:  what the fuck god. 
Just tell me what time you are coming home tonight. 
Just give the time. 
Thats all. 

God replys with. 
God :    The breaking down of family values is in the eye of the beholder.  
Be well my child. 

Then FL you reply with. 
Flrw.  Your a fucking idiot man, i don't know why i even bother with you. 
Ill see ya when i see ya. 

 frustration builds .
You sms god lesser and lesser. 
And you just fall out of touch. 
You still have his number in your phone, but you haven't rang him in over a year now. 

 





#19
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,806
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@Best.Korea
21 “When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe.
2 “If a thief is caught breaking in at night and is struck a fatal blow, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed;

Of all your getting, get understanding.
#20
sadolite
sadolite's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,170
3
2
4
sadolite's avatar
sadolite
3
2
4
Without moral absolutes, everything about morality is just an opinion. Which means no one can dictate to any about their behavior, its your opinion.
Topic's author
#21
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,639
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@sadolite
Well, when society agrees on some moral absolute, it will be a good day.

So maybe in 2000 years if we are lucky.
Topic's author
#22
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,639
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
Although I would bet on 10,000 years, when AI replaces humans completely.
Topic's author
#23
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 357
Posts: 10,639
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Mall
So we shouldnt copy Jesus.
#24
n8nrgim
n8nrgim's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,023
3
2
5
n8nrgim's avatar
n8nrgim
3
2
5
Jesus said if a man doesn't have a sword then let him get one. He also said to turn the cheek, but that's more to do with accepting being wronged is good sometimes, and to let smaller things slide.

Jesus didn't fight back, but he could have. That was his sacrifice... he let sin and death, take him down. he conquered it in the end anyway, by his resurrection 
#25
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,806
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@Best.Korea
If you don't have the Spirit of Christ, no you shouldn't be copying Jesus because.....well ....you don't have the spirit. You can't do anything on your own and when you don't have that spirit, your none of his.
#26
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,071
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Stephen
@n8nrgim
It's all gay sexual metaphors.

Weapons, turning cheeks, not resisting, going down on him and conquering with his erection... (resurrection...translation error)


Remember Adam and Eve?

That was the heterosexual chapter.


Ask Stephen, he's bound to remember the Lesbian and Trans chapters.


Mary rode Donkeys. (We all know what that chapter was about).
#27
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Best.Korea
So we shouldnt copy Jesus.


  Unless there is a throne up for grabs. And a "kingdom" to rule over. BK
#28
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Mall

If you don't have the Spirit of Christ...............when you don't have that spirit, your none of his.

 Can you explain the "spirit if Christ" to me, please? 

#29
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,239
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@Best.Korea
So one must wonder, does Bible teach how self-defense is wrong?
Jesus says not to resist an evildoer; he advocates returning evil with good. How far exactly a Christian should take that teaching is a matter for debate.

Every Christian I've known has pretty much ignored Matthew 5:38-42. Christians who sincerely apply it to their lives to any degree are very much the exception, not the rule, in my experience.

And if so, why dont Christians follow that teaching?
Because it's hard to follow. Like many of Jesus's teachings. Loving your enemy is hard. Not judging others is hard. Being open-minded toward the out-group is hard. And turning the other cheek is really hard.
#30
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 396
Posts: 1,806
4
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
4
4
4
-->
@Stephen
Yes, Spirit of Christ according to Romans 8 is in those that belong to him. The spirit is the the spirit of God.