Yes, we have facts, evidence and reality to provide good, solid reasoning that your claims about consciousness are absurd in the extreme.You can reject those propositions as some atheist would, but then you need to have good solid reasoning for doing so.
Mini arguments for God's existence
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@Castin
This is the only one I find compelling to any degree. It really is uncanny. But it's been rebutted by arguments such as the anthropic principle.
You should remember that all theories are interpretations of the evidences available including materialism/atheism. So while some theory may be compelling it's only an interpretation either way (whether it be Theism or atheism) and so many believe a Theistic interpretation of what we study through science is superior, or even what we experience from our own perceptions. Science is a neutral study and has no ideologies or preferences and therefore the interpretation is up for grabs, what one believes to be superior is up for interpretation at one level which is why it's important to remain open and at least neutral about what science finds or studies.
IMO the conscious nature of what we experience is better articulated through spirituality because it reaches where a materialistic study is incapable. In essence, if one accepts a materialistic/atheistic ideology they have accepted an incomplete study or theory through an incomplete study and theory.
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@EtrnlVw
What we know is that 13.8 billion years ago something happened that produced a universe with hydrogen and little else. Gravity caused the hydrogen to clump into stars which produced the heavier atoms needed to produce life on planets orbiting subsequent generations of stars.
We know that not by reading books of creation myths - they tell very different stories - but by the slow and difficult method of observation and scientific enquiry. No creation myth tells of a cosmic background radiation or neutron stars. Compared to what we have discovered, creation myths show how unimaginative we are. What scripture would dare to propose our atoms were cooked in the heart of stars?
What does spiritual mean, anyway? isn't the fact our atoms are the ashes of long dead stars a spiritual lesson? Surely it cannot be unspiritual just because it is true?
We know jack shit. We have good guesses.
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@Polytheist-Witch
I would say that we don't know everything about the big bang and we never will know everything about it. But we do know enough to say that the truth is much closer to a 'big bang' than, say, a steady state universe.
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@keithprosser
What we know is that 13.8 billion years ago something happened that produced a universe with hydrogen and little else. Gravity caused the hydrogen to clump into stars which produced the heavier atoms needed to produce life on planets orbiting subsequent generations of stars.
What you don't realize is the first cause, the manipulation of energy and elements....and without that first conscious cause you will always be left in limbo because there will never be anything else. There was only ever one reason and cause why stars produced and it was not because of gravity alone. Gravity has a cause like everything else in creation other than consciousness...which is as far back to the wall you can go.
Stars exist to feed our universe, it is but yet another process of creation.
We know that not by reading books of creation myths - they tell very different stories - but by the slow and difficult method of observation and scientific enquiry. No creation myth tells of a cosmic background radiation or neutron stars. Compared to what we have discovered, creation myths show how unimaginative we are. What scripture would dare to propose our atoms were cooked in the heart of stars?
Creation myths tell the cause, not always the actual process even though there are very good spiritual sources and understandings like the ones I supplied links for. The process we learn through the scientific method of how God created the physical worlds is limited by that medium or understanding, but spirituality focuses on the nature of the conscious soul and the nature of God, but what we learn about the physical worlds are recorded through our own studies just like spirituality. It just so happens that spirituality was the first nature man decided to enquire about the most and for good reasons.
What does spiritual mean, anyway? isn't the fact our atoms are the ashes of long dead stars a spiritual lesson? Surely it cannot be unspiritual just because it is true?
Two different natures Keith, the physical and the conscious spiritual. Yes, we are star dust as they say, but only in our experience through material forms. As you shed the physical body your experience reflects that as well, because the conscious soul exists independent of any physical form and always has, it always will.
Spirituality is the application and observation of the reality that transcends the physical boundaries, it is the objective nature of Theism.
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@Fallaneze
GOD ? 3 letters...never used in human history until the GOTHIC LANGUAGE ...GERMANIC in the 4th century AD...
the word GOD...the 3 letters that make up the word were NEVER USED in human EXISTENCE pre 400 AD....
How about that....for all those PARASITE VAMPIRE Jesus and Allah preaching con artists...
GOD this...and GOD that...and GOD said....BULLSHT...
Seems like all this JESUS-JEW-ALLAH GOD garbage was ripped off of the Ancient Sumerian "Epic of Gilgamesh Playbook"
2100 BC....
The word GOD was NEVER IN USE TILL ABOUT 400 AD...
GOD ? the word has NOTHING TO DO WITH SOME SPIRITUAL CREATOR ENTITY....it is of GOTHIC-GERMANIC origin
and has never been associated with the so called CREATOR .......
The JEWS use the ACRONYM....Tanakh.... HEBREW BIBLE ...which is comprised of 24 books divided into 3 sections...
POINT ? GOD is also an acronym = G for genius O for of D for deception....Genius Of Deception = GOD
These human Vampires attach the meaningless word GOD to the so called super being creator...what a load of CRAP
Long before Moses 1500 BC there were many highly advanced civilizations on EARTH many with all manner of DIVINE
ENTITIES represented by symbols and names.....GOD was NEVER a word used for any of these entities...
HUMANS you have been PLAYED...like SCAMMED..by world class PARASITE VAMPIRES who fabricate GODS
like they do any fairytale to deceive and take advantage of the weak minded....
GOD exists between the EARS of the HYPNOTIZED IMBECILE that falls for the clever mind molesting stagecraft
of HUMAN manipulators for POWER and CONTROL....
...........GOD truly is the essence of....Genius of Deception.....
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@EtrnlVw
Two different natures Keith, the physical and the conscious spiritual. Yes, we are star dust as they say, but only in our experience through material forms. As you shed the physical body your experience reflects that as well, because the conscious soul exists independent of any physical form and always has, it always will.Spirituality is the application and observation of the reality that transcends the physical boundaries, it is the objective nature of Theism.
I am sure you tried hard to communicate something, but I got absolutely nothing at all out of that.
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@keithprosser
Tried hard? that depends on how ignorant you may be of the subject. What I communicated was pretty straight forward.
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@keithprosser
You seem to be lost on the nature of science and the nature of spirituality and how they examine the nature of two different aspects of our existence and the one does not exclude the other. Both are needed to understand the fullness of our experience. While spirituality may not articulate the process of creation, we don't need it when we can figure that out for ourselves. What spirituality is for, is for what we cannot reach through the scientific method, in other words both pick up on where the other left off.
Atheists claim they were present for all the religions beginnings and now the universe too.
pollywannacracker
Citation numpty.
it's important to remain open and at least neutral about what science finds or studies.
But, you're a science denier, you deny facts and evidence of what science has discovered or explained.
The latter is just a fantasy in your head, there is no evidence whatsoever to support it no matter how many times you repeat it,Two different natures Keith, the physical and the conscious spiritual.
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@keithprosser
It could be framed as a choice between causing misconception or simply attracting no public interest at all.The 'god particle' meme seems to have originated as the title of a book written in 1993, but I don't remember anybody taking about 'god particles' until very recently, ie before the discovery of the higgs boson round 2013, twenty years later.I think physicists have done their best to disown that nickname dredged up from the past when it was a publishers idea of a good comercial title for yet another another routine pop-sci book.But it has made people more aware of some obscure science even if very few understand it. I don't understand it, but if it is called the 'god particle' i know it must be important so i want to know more. The 'higgs particle' must be the most boring and uninspiring name imaginable!
It's the particle without which nothing in the universe would have mass, I understand the nickname. If I'd been writing a book on it I might have reached for it myself.
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@Castin
If the calcuation in 1993 was which title will sell better 'the god particle' or 'the higgs boson' it was no-brainer.
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@SkepticalOne
I admit it's hard for me to imagine that complex life could have evolved from hydrogen and helium. Silicon, maybe. I'm not enough of a chemist to know if silicon could form in conditions where carbon could not.The problem is that suppose the varied laws meant carbon could not form.That is only a problem if we assume we know all the possible ways life can manifest, and/or that life HAD to be.
But the important thing to take from that would be:
hard for me to imagine =/= impossible
What the human mind can understand is a pitifully tiny percentage of reality.
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@Castin
you correctly pointed out that in these polarised and adversarial terms some people are unnwillig to yield anyting to 'the other side'. I don't think fine tuning should be dismissed just because it seems to offer theists some crumbs!
We don't know how the fundamental constants got the values they do. We don't know if was an incredible fluke, the only possiblity or someting in between. I doubt they were hand-tweaked by an old beardy bloke in a robe, but you never know. Unless you are a theist in which case you do 'know' it was indeed an old beardy bloke with a beard.
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@keithprosser
EtrnlVw said this to you...
Tried hard? that depends on how ignorant you may be of the subject.
If you haven't talked with the Overlords of the God Worlds and Realms on other planets in other galaxies, then you are clearly ignorant of the subject matter. How dare you, Keith!!
Get with the program, get over to those God Worlds and start talking with the Overlords immediately, don't waste another moment!
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@keithprosser
And nobody believes that God is a old beelardy dude in the clouds except people who don't believe in God.I doubt they were hand-tweaked by an old beardy bloke in a robe, but you never know. Unless you are a theist in which case you do 'know' it was indeed an old beardy bloke with a beard.
And then you probably laugh to yourself when someone like me, a believer in God, calls you superstitious.
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@Goldtop
I seek only to learn at the feet of the Masters.
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@keithprosser
Sounds good, I just hope it's not the masters of crazy talk.
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@Mopac
Ok - the robe is optional.
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@Goldtop
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@keithprosser
It may all just be a big joke to you, but to me it is something that really matters. All that matters even.
So you poo poo it all away, because it is all a big joke that simple folk like me take too seriously. Maybe I'm misguided at best.
Well, my goal here isn't to validate myself or feel smug about how clever I am. I am here out of love, and nothing more. Love that many here would not recognize as such, but it is love none the less.
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@EtrnlVw
Hey, you're back. 'Bout time.This is the only one I find compelling to any degree. It really is uncanny. But it's been rebutted by arguments such as the anthropic principle.You should remember that all theories are interpretations of the evidences available including materialism/atheism. So while some theory may be compelling it's only an interpretation either way (whether it be Theism or atheism) and so many believe a Theistic interpretation of what we study through science is superior, or even what we experience from our own perceptions. Science is a neutral study and has no ideologies or preferences and therefore the interpretation is up for grabs, what one believes to be superior is up for interpretation at one level which is why it's important to remain open and at least neutral about what science finds or studies.IMO the conscious nature of what we experience is better articulated through spirituality because it reaches where a materialistic study is incapable. In essence, if one accepts a materialistic/atheistic ideology they have accepted an incomplete study or theory through an incomplete study and theory.
I can't tell from your post whether you're coming out for or against fine-tuning. I am convinced by the anthropic principle, personally.
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@Castin
My main point is that scientific findings can be interpreted in favor or against Theism, it just depends on how one examines and interprets the evidences. Science should not be used against Theism since science is a neutral study, atheism seems to pull in that direction though, using science as a means to support a materialistic worldview when in reality no such thing is happening. Science does not claim or support worldviews, it's just a method we use to understand the world around us in a better way but it has no preferences about origins one way or another.
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@Castin
Wait a minute...you're convinced? since when lol?
My main point is that scientific findings can be interpreted in favor or against Theism, it just depends on how one examines and interprets the evidences.
That's not true, scientists don't "interpret" evidence, the evidence reveals itself for what it is. If someone is interpreting science against theism, that's another story altogether and has nothing to do with the science itself.
For example, science understands consciousness is a product of the brain, but you have interpreted that to be entirely wrong, which has nothing to do with science and everything to do with your biased denial of the facts.
G O D ? as a word NEVER EXISTED....it was twisted out of some Germanic word that had nothing to do with the concept of some ultra all creating super being...
It was during 400 AD that some Roman Church clown was translating the Hebrew Bible into GOTHIC ....and came up with these 3 letters and it stuck !
"GOD" became the lead character in the Christian Bible comic book series...which now has so many idiotic versions JESUS would pass out over this garbage....
Just trash every civilization from the Ancient HALAF of Syria-Iraq 6000 BC.. up to around 1500 BC when moses couldn't take the crap his own people were dishing out and ran up some mountain....saw some tasty mushrooms and met GOD through a burning bush....WOW ! who needs Batman with this Comic Book story !
and where was this DIVINE...."I AM" dude ? he did not have a name...just "I AM" Ok whatever...how come the HALAF...and countless other civilizations of EARTH over the previous 4,500 years don't know of this..." i am" dude ?
"GOD" ? like santa Claus...Iron Man...Emperor Caligula...(he declared himself to be DIVINE)...not a GOD..the word did not EXIST ! whatever word was used by ROME at the time to denote DIVINE STATUS ? sadly Caligula was murdered...so ROMAN !
It's just like what the JEWS did to that poor self proclaimed JEWISH MESSIAH.....JESUS ! ... the JEWS got so pissed off they demanded his EXECUTION...well who better then ROME to pull off a spectacle....not only did they beat up this MESSIAH they nailed him to a cross to rot...
Satisfied the JEWS....went back to whatever mattered to them but ROME had other plans for the fake MESSIAH...JESUS....of course...with the JEWS
locked into their DIVINE CREATOR....a new GOD was needed to fill the vacuum of a declining EMPIRE....so who better then JESUS...certainly this
young non threatening boy would be the perfect cover for his resurrection ! and MARTYR into ROMES DIVINE SAVIOR !
AHHHhhh...the fabulous DECEPTION STRATEGIES for POWER of ROME so well honed even without their well trained Army the ROMAN Elites crafted a classic tale of JEW MESSIAH gone bad into ROME'S NEW GOD and SAVIOR ! brilliant....300 years after they murdered JESUS for the JEWS ! what a scapegoat they had with this play...to humiliate the JEWS with their own tricks .....and Emperor Constantine declares JESUS the
only DIVINE BEING allowed for worship ! ROME ! the ultimate hot bed of DEATH-DESTRUCTION-CORRUPTION-SEX....kicks the JEWS in the CROTCH with this MONOTHEIST move to JESUS ! noe the JEWS are seen as backstabbing con artists that conspire to have others kill those they deem unworthy ! they used ROME to take out JESUS..and ROME used JESUS to crush the JEWS into submission....!
100 years after Constantine's APPROVAL and VALIDATION of JESUS as the DIVINE ONE ! some Roman Church lown invents the word "GOD"
...."GOD" did these Romans have getting revenge down or what ! ever since ..the word "GOD" has been used as the ultimate scapegoat TOOL
to CONTROL the masses of asses with !
G O D = acronym = Genius Of Deception....just ask ALLAH ! he showed up after Muhammad..some illiterate guy has his Moses meets GOD
moment and creates ISLAM from it ! ..
."It's GOD's WILL they say as another head is lopped off for not converting to ISLAM ? ...... "GOD is GREAT" ? no "GOD" is an acronym..not DIVINE