Islam vs. Christianity

aql_reason wrote:  So you care when religion enforces things on other people that don't agree with it, yes?

Stephen wrote:  And you have used the word en-"FORCE"- es  .

aql_reason wrote: Yes you are right. Even if I did write that, you would still be against it.

Stephen wrote:  So, tell me,  is it wrong for someone or group to en- force their religious ideology onto others. Yes or No?

aql_reason wrote:  Not necessarily. [.......................................](nudity, guns, vaccines, etc.

And what is the punishment for apostates in Islam?

Depends on how you define apostasy 

Impossible(def): not able to occur, exist, or be done. Because you believe miracles exist, they can't be impossible. If I said I don't accept miracles. Quote me. 

God is all powerful. 

God can only break the rules of physics and nature. Not logic.

So we limit what God can do.

 Therefore, he can't do impossible things. 

Yes God is not bound by logic.  We are bound by logic. You agree human knowledge is limited? So its not that its impossible for God to break the laws of logic. We can't accept it. Because we can't accept contradictions. Understand? 

Miracles are not illogical.

Yes. 

Seeing is not the main way to reach truth. Depends what their intention was. If they were genuine, then they are not at fault.

Yes. If what that guy says is more reasonable. 

The assumption is false. The entire Bible is not Gods words. And Quran refers to which ones are. One of Muhammads miracle was the Quran. It was the only book that didn't get corrupted because it doesn't contain contradictions. Contradiction. Verse A says do X, verse B says don’t ever do X. So no. 

Islam does not believe in attacking people based on their religion.

Christians and Jews are people of the book and are respected.

The Divine essence cannot cease to be what it is.

Again, at risk of pointlessly repeating myself, there was no change to the Divine essence at the incarnation. Because the Divine essence cannot change. God is immutable.

When we say "God became man" we mean the divine essence was united to something that was created, i.e the body of Jesus, but the D.E. itself did not "become" created in the sense that it ceased being creator and was now created. That doesn't even make logical sense to say that and it's not what we teach.

There was a very ancient heresy called Kenosis which taught the D.E. lost some of it's attributes during the incarnation. We beat those guys and that is not what we teach. To formulate it mathematically, A=Divine Essence. B=created flesh. 

We are not saying, A turned into B and therefore ceased being A.  We are also not saying A and B were united in such a way that they became a hybrid blend of each other (C). (Both of those mistaken views would entail the contradiction you're speaking about)

What we ARE saying is A was united to B (AB) but both natures remained perfectly intact. The human nature was not swallowed up by the Divine, and the Divine did not cease being divine and turn human. 

I want you to really give some thought to that before responding.

Accept the Quran does exactly this. How does Allah create man? He breathes into the clay and it becomes man, correct?

How does Jesus create birds in  Surah Al-Ma'idah? 

"How I taught you writing, wisdom, the Torah, and the Gospel. How you moulded a bird from clay—by My Will—and breathed into it and it became a ˹real˺ bird—by My Will. "

Did Allah take Jesus as a partner in creation? If no, why did he give him the same exact power to create that Allah alone should possess? 

Why did Allah AND Gibreel create the body of Jesus together?

Surah At-Tahrim

˹There is˺ also ˹the example of˺ Mary, the daughter of ’Imrân, who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her ˹womb˺ through Our angel ˹Gabriel˺.1 She testified to the words of her Lord and His Scriptures, and was one of the ˹sincerely˺ devout.

If Allah alone is creator and giver of life, what in the world is going on in this Aya? Was Gibreel Allah's partner in creating Isa? 

If Allah has no partners, it certainly seems Gibreel and Isa create and help him create in identical manners. 

NO, Wrong!.  Read [A] above as to what I actually wrote and not what you wished me to have written, so stop trying to put words in my mouth.That is being deceitful.

 I  specifically choses the word "chooses". #113  . So to repeat myself for clarity : I don't fkn care what religion one chooses to follow as long as it has no baring on my life and the lives of my children and grandchildren.#113 Only you have used the word "force".

Again you are ignoring that  which  I  have specifically concerning "religious ideology".  Stop swerving. It is a yes or no answer.

So are you saying Muslims/Islam defines apostasy different to other religions?  Why don't you define it for us ?

You said you as a human cannot accept anything illogical. 

Miracle:

a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency:

So, either

A. using your logic, you should be an atheist. 

B. Your God is not all powerful, because (like you said) he can't do anything illogical. 

So, God can defy logic, because in order to be all powerful by definition, you would have to create logic. 

Then he isn't all powerful...........

Again, you can't say:

"God is all powerful."

and 

"God can only break the rules of physics and nature. Not logic."

Thats a direct contradiction into the nature of God. 

A creation can limit the creators' abilities, based on the premise that they can't comprehend the creators' abilities?

Thats funny.

Then your God, isn't all powerful, if he can't do impossible things, period. 

Ok. I understand your argument, but your wording is very poor.

You're basically saying that God can himself defy logic, because he created it, but in order to be a fair God, he must represent only what we find logical as evidence for him and his teachings.

Thats fine to argue. 

However, that doesn't contradict the fact that we humans are also triune in body, mind, and spirit. So why can't God? 

Also, what is illogical about God coming down to earth in a human body, claim to be God, and perform many supernatural miracles to prove it. 

Thats not illogical if you believe in the supernatural. There is an argument to be made about the logic of that if you're an atheist.

But if you believe in the supernatural, and a God that can do anything, it makes more sense for him to appear and do supernatural thing to prove himself rather than claim divinity from a man. 

You claim my faith is blind, yet you base your religion based on the fact that one man claimed to have a revelation from God and had others write down his revelation. That takes a lot of faith my friend. 

So, the miracle of God coming down in the body of a man isn't illogical then. 

What happened to God appearing to us logically? 

What's more reasonable?

Taking the words of a man who describes Jesus 500 years after Jesus lived as truth. 

or

Taking the words of people who literally walked with Jesus, as truth

So, in order to understand what parts of the Bible true and which parts are false, we need to line it up with the Qur'an, which was written 500 years after the Bible was completed, in order to understand what parts of the Bible are true?

And you are basing this off of the fact that a man said God told him? 

That is less reasonable by a long shot. 

So, we must read the bible, by first reading the Qur'an then read the Bible, but just throw out the other parts that don't agree with the Qur'an, based soley on the claim of a man, who lived 500 years after the Bible was finished, and claimed to have a revelation from God. 

That is not logical, I'm sorry.  

Then why:

Did Muhammed fight in or oversee many battles, many of which were offensive ones.

Did Muhammed order the execution and maiming of many people, including massacres.

Does the Qur’an teach Jihad as a means to spread the faith and there is no possible question that this Jihad is principally warfare.  Much of the Qur’an is advice for battle and conquest.

Does the Hadith agree with this and even expands on it.

Was Muhammad’s vision was put into practice and by AD 700 his followers created one of the largest empires in history.

Was Muhammed promised immediate access to heaven to those who died in war for Allah.

Based on the doctrine of abrogation, what is acknowledged as the last or nearly the last of the suras is Sura 9—the most violent of all the Suras.  In this one, Muslims are told to no longer compromise with Jews or Christians, but to attack and defeat them.

Thats laughable:

«لَا تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ حَتَّى يُقَاتِلَ الْمُسْلِمُونَ الْيَهُودَ، فَيَقْتُلُهُمُ الْمُسْلِمُونَ حَتَّى يَخْتَبِىءَ الْيَهُودِيُّ مِنْ وَرَاءِ الْحَجَرِ وَالشَّجَرِ، فَيَقُولُ الْحَجَرُ وَالشَّجَرُ: يَامُسْلِمُ يَاعَبْدَاللهِ هَذَا يَهُودِيٌّ خَلْفِي فَتَعَالَ فَاقْتُلْهُ إِلَّا الْغَرْقَدَ فَإِنَّهُ مِنْ شَجَرِ الْيَهُود»

(The Hour will not start, until after the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them. The Jew will hide behind a stone or tree, and the tree will say, `O Muslim! O servant of Allah! This is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.' Except Al-Gharqad, for it is a tree of the Jews

Just answer the question Stephen [...............................]So you care when religion enforces things on other people that don't agree with it, yes?"

Stephen wrote: And what is the punishment for apostates in Islam?#151

aql_reason wrote? Depends on how you define apostasy 

So are you saying Muslims/Islam defines apostasy different to other religions?  Why don't you define it for us ?

No the definition is on wikipedia:   "Apostasy is the formal disaffiliation from, abandonment of, or renunciation of a religion by a person."

Notice what I bolded. Many people don't understand that part. 

Scholars are not unanimous on the punishment for apostasy.

Yes. Formal means -  Official.  So what ?

So Wikipedia and the English dictionary are in agreement. Apostasy is the act of giving up your religious beliefs. OR leaving  a religion 

"Scholars"  I see. So those scholars that you believe are best informed on such matters and are the people that we [I]  should be turning to and approaching for wisdom on such matter, are not in agreement?  These will be the very same educated scholars that you insist that I should be listening to help me in  forming my own ideas and opinions . 

 Tell me how can anyone form a valid opinion on these schools of thought when these schools cannot even make their own fkn minds up after almost 1500 years!!?

Every Imam I have listened to and the few Islamic scholars that I have read, have all agreed, that the penalty for leaving the Islamic religion is  death.

How about this ISLAMIC scholar?

Muhammad al- Bukhari 

This is the ruling of Allaah and His Messenger, as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "Whoever changes his religion, kill him." (reported by al-Bukhaari, al-Fath, no. 3017)

So one has no CHOICE to leave the Islamic RELIGION unless he wishes to die. Which in turn means he  is FORCED to stay through fear of death. <<<That is barbaric.

And I rest my case. 

You of course have a right to appeal.

Yes. Formal means -  Official.  So what ?

So Wikipedia and the English dictionary are in agreement. Apostasy is the act of giving up your religious beliefs. OR leaving  a religion 

Yes the key part is official. Apostasy is not about belief. So if they leave Islam personally, they are only punished by God. However, if they leave officially, they are punished in society. Leaving officially means that this person in court has to testify with sane mind that they longer are muslim. If they stop practicing Islam that does not mean they are an apostate under Islamic guidelines. Which is why it is rarely carried out in Islamic states. 

"Scholars"  I see. So those scholars that you believe are best informed on such matters and are the people that we [I]  should be turning to and approaching for wisdom on such matter, are not in agreement?  These will be the very same educated scholars that you insist that I should be listening to help me in  forming my own ideas and opinions . 

You are making an assumption here. I only stated a fact that not all scholars are unanimous on the punishment. I never stated what position I took in the previous discussion. 

 Tell me how can anyone form a valid opinion on these schools of thought when these schools cannot even make their own fkn minds up after almost 1500 years!!?

Every Imam I have listened to and the few Islamic scholars that I have read, have all agreed, that the penalty for leaving the Islamic religion is  death.

How about this ISLAMIC scholar?

Muhammad al- Bukhari 

This is the ruling of Allaah and His Messenger, as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "Whoever changes his religion, kill him." (reported by al-Bukhaari, al-Fath, no. 3017)

So one has no CHOICE to leave the Islamic RELIGION unless he wishes to die. Which in turn means he  is FORCED to stay through fear of death. <<<That is barbaric.

And I rest my case. 

You of course have a right to appeal.

Call it barbaric and any other label you can give. Most of the arguments against apostasy are emotional appeals. 

Listen. It doesn't matter how much you attempt to apologise for this barbaric practice. It doesn't alter the stone cold fact that the punishment for leaving the ISLAMIC faith is death. So ISLAM is an enforced religious ideology.

But again YOU are appealing to the "Scholars" that you have said to do such a thing is "fallacy".

Well it doesn't really matter what I or anyone else calls it, does it? All that is irrelevant.   It doesn't alter the fact that the penalty for a Muslim  leavening Islam is DEATH!

Hence, to enforce a religious ideology onto someone that doesn't accept it is not a choice, is it?  It is fkn terrorism. And it is religious terrorism in the case of the Muslim apostate. ..... and anyone else that doesn't believe in Allah and that Mohammad was his prophet.  I have always maintained the the worst victims of Islam are Muslims themselves.

I said there is no compulsion [in choosing] religion which means those who are not muslims can't be forced to convert to Islam.

But again YOU are appealing to the "Scholars" that you have said to do such a thing is "fallacy".

For the last time, you can appeal to scholars (appeal to authority) if what they say makes reasonable sense.

 it happened in the past and it shouldn't happen now.  I am stating what the Islamic guidelines for an apostate is

The definition of apostate is formally leaving a religion. Do you disagree? 

Terrorism, in its broadest sense, is the use of intentional violence and fear to achieve political or ideological aims (source: wikipedia)

Then you are lacking education in your own subject. It is a fact that those that didn't convert to Islam have either been put to the sword or FORCED to pay Jizya if they live in Muslim lands. Which we have already discussed.

We have covered this too. And I pointed out YOUR "IF"  is subjective. HERE> #113 .  That is to say, to some it may make sense while to others it doesn't.  And YOU have shown this to be the case because  you have said yourself that: "Scholars are not unanimous on the punishment for apostasy."#154 So when have undecided scholars that you say we should consult although they are undecided between themselves. and then turned around and called it "fallacy.  FFS at least  be honest enough to admit that your statement was wrong to begin with.

I know what the guidelines are. I have quoted one of those scholars of which there are many. 

And of course it shouldn't happen now. Are you saying it doesn't happen  now? 

 already ready respoded to that above HERE>> #156

 Formal means -  Official. 

So Wikipedia and the English dictionary are in agreement. Apostasy is the act of giving up your religious beliefs. OR leaving  a religion 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I.e OFICIALLY leaving a religion  is apostasy and in this case a Muslim officially leaving ISLAM.. Stop playing silly word games. 

It can be local TERRORIST violence too. FFS! how old are you?  England  has suffered terrorist attacks carried out by "home grown " Muslim terrorists.

Iran, just today  have suffered  what they called a "terrorist" attack with two explosions near a cemetery. They don't know yet if they were "home grown"  resistance TERRORIST or foreign TERRORISTS. 

You swerved these two questions>>>   Was Jesus the son of Allah?  AND  Was it Jesus that died on the cross?

just ask the question rather than going into a spiral of confusion and assumptions. 

"There are a number of historians who see the rule of the Umayyads as responsible for setting up the "dhimmah" to increase taxes from the dhimmis to benefit the Arab Muslim community financially and to discourage conversion"

Just ask a question.

Why don't you fkn answer these questions?

You swerved these two questions>>>   Was Jesus the son of Allah?  AND  Was it Jesus that died on the cross?

Well idk why you asked those obvious questions? Do Muslims believe that Jesus was the literal son of God? Do Muslims believe Jesus died on the cross

With all these violent verses that come from muslim's holy book, can one really be surprised by violence committed by muslims?

And again you are appealing to authority , the authority that you now claim to be fallacy. <<<obviously a word you don't understand the meaning of.

Then what happens to those that refuse to pay this protection money that you call "tax". 

And you are the one that has point blank on three occasions refused to answer these questions >>>Was Jesus the son of Allah?  AND  Was it Jesus that died on the cross?  Simple yes or no answers will do.

And again you are appealing to authority , the authority that you now claim to be fallacy. <<<obviously a word you don't understand the meaning of.

Then what happens to those that refuse to pay this protection money that you call "tax". 

[...................................]might be required to accept Islam, pay the jizya, be exiled, or be killed.

And you are the one that has point blank on three occasions refused to answer these questions >>>Was Jesus the son of Allah?  AND  Was it Jesus that died on the cross?  Simple yes or no answers will do.

No. No. 

After long time of back and forth, unfortunately, I really didn't learn anything new here. 

After long time of back and forth, unfortunately, I really didn't learn anything new here. 

Sadly, now muslims must explain why islam, which they think is "best religion", is mostly followed by morally inferior people.