Morality is subjective in character with an objective compulsion

Topic's author

#1

hey-yo

Debates: 25

Posts: 382

1

2

4

hey-yo

11.10.2023 06:23AM

1

2

4

11.10.2023 06:23AM

Found this elsewhere. Brought it here to see what you all would say to this or how to respond to it. Fascinating cocept.

Morality may be based on the subjective interpretation of good and evil, but that interpretation forms an objective law that guide’s behaviour in the form of convention. So, morality has a base structure of subjectivity with a superstructure of objectivity. Therefore, morality is subjective in character with an objective compulsion.

#2

zedvictor4

Debates: 22

Posts: 12,062

3

6

zedvictor4

11.10.2023 06:36AM

3

6

11.10.2023 06:36AM

-->

@hey-yo

Data in, data assessment, data out.

The whole process from start to finish is a simulated appraisal of an assumed reality, transferred and reassessed innumerable times.

Therein all data is super-subjective.

#3

Best.Korea

Debates: 357

Posts: 10,604

4

6

10

Best.Korea

11.10.2023 01:08PM

4

6

10

11.10.2023 01:08PM

Yeah, no.

If morality was anything close to objective, we wouldnt need to discuss about what is moral.

The mere fact that there is a moral disagreement tells you that morality is entirely subjective.

Of course, you need to have at least 140 IQ to understand this.

#4

FLRW

Debates: 0

Posts: 6,591

3

4

8

FLRW

11.10.2023 01:51PM

3

4

8

11.10.2023 01:51PM

Moral disagreement is a difference of belief about strongly held convictions. Convictions occur on a continuum—mild, moderate, strong conviction, and moral certainty. Some persons are morally uncertain and others morally certain. This uncertainty and certainty many times (but not always) evolves into moderate conviction. Morally certain persons are more likely to remain absolutely convinced. Person’s beliefs about one issue does not always apply to other issues. One can be morally certain about one issue but uncertain about others. And yet, some persons are morally certain or uncertain about a variety of issues.

#5

FLRW

Debates: 0

Posts: 6,591

3

4

8

FLRW

11.10.2023 01:53PM

3

4

8

11.10.2023 01:53PM

-->

@Best.Korea

I think it only takes an IQ of 110 to understand this.

Topic's author

#6

hey-yo

Debates: 25

Posts: 382

1

2

4

hey-yo

11.10.2023 05:28PM

1

2

4

11.10.2023 05:28PM

-->

@zedvictor4

Data interpretation can be subjective, but data itself is usually objective. However lets focus on the process. You just gave an objective process that always occurs or should always occur unless that process is interupted. If interupted the process is still attempted.

So does that reflect the o.p. ?
The (data) process is and desire to perform process is objective compulsion. The ability to perform the process is subjective in character.

#7

Public-Choice

Debates: 19

Posts: 1,065

3

4

8

Public-Choice

11.10.2023 08:00PM

3

4

8

11.10.2023 08:00PM

-->

@Best.Korea

The mere fact that there is a moral disagreement tells you that morality is entirely subjective.

Why is something subjective because people debate it? People literally debate the existence of a flat earth. Does that mean the idea of the earth being round is subjective?

It's as if you forgot that Ambiguity Aversion, Confirmation Bias, Choice Overload, Cognitive Dissonance, and Bounded Rationality all exist.

#8

Best.Korea

Debates: 357

Posts: 10,604

4

6

10

Best.Korea

11.10.2023 08:39PM

4

6

10

11.10.2023 08:39PM

-->

@Public-Choice

Objective morality means that it cannot contradict itself. The fact that morality is debatable means that morality contradicts itself.

Different people have different values, thus disproving objective values in favor of subjective values.

Of course, it does take 140 IQ to understand this.

Topic's author

#9

hey-yo

Debates: 25

Posts: 382

1

2

4

hey-yo

11.10.2023 10:42PM

1

2

4

11.10.2023 10:42PM

-->

@FLRW

I saw this on the other thread as well. I think it could be used as a reaponse to your post. So I will add it and see if that argues your point or not.

No. I think he's saying that there are objective facts that inform our morality. For instance:

1) Humanity has a strong survival instinct.
2) We have an instinctual revulsion of death.(Note that this is not universal, but it is objective. It is an objective fact that humanity is of the type that develops two arms. The fact that some people have birth defects or damage that removes that does not change that objective fact.
3) Because of our survival instinct and revulsion of death, our morality is informed by that hatred of death. How that works specifically is subjective. IE: We may say that our connection with family trumps our fear of death, therefor we are morally obligated to protect our children and are willing to die or kill to do so. Another person may be a complete pacifist that absolutely refuses to murder. Another person may say that only they have a moral right to live while those around them do not

Topic's author

#10

hey-yo

Debates: 25

Posts: 382

1

2

4

hey-yo

11.10.2023 10:43PM

1

2

4

11.10.2023 10:43PM

-->

@Best.Korea

There is common error when talking about objectivity that parts could not be discussed or contradict each other. However that contradiction is humans. Its what we believe in or talk about.

Ohjectivity exists outside of us and not influenced by us. Which means we can discuss and contradict all we want. The thing that is objective does not change or contradict itself when we do.

Ex: you say abortion is moral while I say it is immoral. The objective truth is not influenced by us or determined by our conclusion. We can also act outside of the objective truth

#11

Public-Choice

Debates: 19

Posts: 1,065

3

4

8

Public-Choice

11.11.2023 01:58AM

3

4

8

11.11.2023 01:58AM

-->

@Best.Korea

Objective morality means that it cannot contradict itself.

Objective morality doesn't contradict itself. Subjective morality does. Just because two people are discussing subjective morality, that doesn't mean objective morality doesn't exist.

A case in point, the flat earth debate. Flat earthers insist the earth is flat. Round earthers INSIST the earth is round. In reality, the earth is neither. It is an oblong sphere with peaks and valleys in it and a very uneven surface.

But just because these two groups are debating a subjective idea (the shape of the earth), that doesn't mean the earth itself doesn't have a shape...

Same with morality. Just because people debate it, that doesn't mean there is no morality.

#12

zedvictor4

Debates: 22

Posts: 12,062

3

6

zedvictor4

11.11.2023 09:10AM

3

6

11.11.2023 09:10AM

-->

@hey-yo

Therein lies the application of words (generated imagery) and their definition which is inevitably variable.

So for sure, morality is hypothetical and associated (goals) objectives occur.

Though the occurring event is subject to the processes that I described above.

Wherein we rely upon a consensus as validation, which within the human network/s can become established an objective consideration.

Though human network/s, is/are undoubtedly networks of individuals rather than an individual network.

So inevitably there is neither consensus nor objective considerations that comply with a global standard.

#13

Best.Korea

Debates: 357

Posts: 10,604

4

6

10

Best.Korea

11.11.2023 11:27AM

4

6

10

11.11.2023 11:27AM

-->

@Public-Choice

There is no objective morality. Morality is subjective. Thats why 2 persons can have completely different morality. There, I made it simple this time. I can make it even more simple, I just wonder how simple it needs to be.

#14

Public-Choice

Debates: 19

Posts: 1,065

3

4

8

Public-Choice

11.11.2023 01:51PM

3

4

8

11.11.2023 01:51PM

-->

@Best.Korea

There is no objective morality. Morality is subjective. Thats why 2 persons can have completely different morality.

Two people can also be wrong and think they're right.

I also made it simple.

#15

Best.Korea

Debates: 357

Posts: 10,604

4

6

10

Best.Korea

11.11.2023 02:23PM

4

6

10

11.11.2023 02:23PM

-->

@Public-Choice

I dont care what you say. Morality will always be subjective. You may think that there is objective morality, but usually something you cant even point at exists only in your head. Objective morality my ass.

#16

zedvictor4

Debates: 22

Posts: 12,062

3

6

zedvictor4

11.12.2023 07:48PM

3

6

11.12.2023 07:48PM

-->

@Best.Korea

As far as the individual is concerned.

Ones ass/arse is reasonably objective.

Though moral considerations pertaining to ones ass/arse, are however, subjective.