Donald Trump is NOT Racist: Change my Mind
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
After 8 votes and with 16 points ahead, the winner is...
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 30,000
- Voting period
- One month
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Voters will vote on the arguments and voting criteria like any other debate. Whether my mind is changed or not has no effect on the voting.
Racism is a pretty agreed upon term- "the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others."
So thinking that you are superior to another race.
That is the main definition, but another one could be prejudice or discrimination of another race.
Rules: One must accept my given definitions of racism, and provide BoP that Trump has said or done racist things.
I will give a general overview of the debate in round 1, and then Con will start off the arguments. Con will then waive the last round.
On July 16th, 1968 a complaint was filed with the New York City Commission on Human Rights alleging an unlawful discriminatory practice in violation of the Administrative Code of the City of New York; Specifically, that Fred Trump (Donald Trump's father) refused to rent an apartment to a man because he was black.
A hearing on the complaint was held on October 31st, 1968, before the commission, at which time testimony and evidence were received. The commission found that respondent Fred Trump engaged in an unlawful discriminatory practice in violation of the Administrative Code of the City of New York.
https://www.clearinghouse.net/chDocs/public/FH-NY-0024-0055.pdf
On October 15th, 1973, the Nixon administration's then acting Attorney General Elliot Richardson filed a complaint on behalf of the United States against Donald Trump, et al, in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of New York. The complaint, inter alia, alleged the following:
1. Trump Management Inc. was a New York corporation doing business in the Eastern District of New York, managing and operating numerous apartment buildings, totaling at least 14,000 dwelling units in the New York area and elsewhere. (These facts were not denied in the Trump's answer to the complaint - https://www.clearinghouse.net/chDocs/public/FH-NY-0024-0018.pdf )
2. Donald Trump was president of Trump Management Inc. and was responsible for the policies and practices of Trump Management Inc. (This fact was not denied in the Trumps' answer to the complaint - https://www.clearinghouse.net/chDocs/public/FH-NY-0024-0018.pdf )
3. Donald Trump, et al, through his actions and those of his agents and employees, discriminated against persons because of race in the operation of the apartment buildings, among other ways, by:
a) Refusing to rent dwellings and negotiate for the rental of dwellings with persons because of race and color.
b) Requiring different terms and conditions with respect to the rental of dwellings because of race and color.
c) Making and causing to be made statements with respect to the rental of dwellings which indicate a preference, limitation and discrimination based on race and color.
d) Representing to persons because of race and color that dwellings are not available for inspection and rental when such dwellings are in fact so available.
A copy of this complaint is available for download in PDF format here: https://www.clearinghouse.net/chDocs/public/FH-NY-0024-0005.pdf
The allegations contained within the complaint were preceded and supported by an FBI investigation in to the policies and practices of Trump Management Inc. The FBI records for that investigation are available for download here:
https://vault.fbi.gov/trump-management-company
The records of that investigation include evidence of discriminatory practices. Some evidence of discriminatory practices are from those of "testers" - People who pose as prospective tenants and inquire as to the cost and availability of apartments. For example, a black tester may inquire as to the availability of an apartment and then a white tester may inquire as to availability soon thereafter. Other evidence supporting the allegations of the complaint include statements from employees and former employees of Trump Management Inc.
The following are some examples of this evidence:
(Excerpt from statement to FBI from a former employee of Trump Management)
I was employed by Trump Management Corporation from February, 1970 to May, 1971 as a Doorman at 2650 Ocean Parkway, Brooklyn, New York. This building is also known as Ocean Terrance.
While employed in this capacity, I was supervised by an individual known to me as [REDACTED] who was employed by Trump Management Corporation as superintendent at 2650 Ocean Parkway, Brooklyn, New York.
[REDACTED] told me that if a black person came to 2650 Ocean Parkway and inquired about an apartment for rent, and he, that is, [REDACTED] was not there at the time, that I should tell him that the rent was twice as much as it really was, in order that he could not afford the apartment.
Pages 34, 35 from:
https://vault.fbi.gov/trump-management-company/Trump%20Management%20Company%20Part%2001%20of%2008/at_download/file
(Another excerpt from statement to FBI by former employee of Trump Management)
I [...] was employed by Trump Management Corporation during the middle two weeks of December, 1973. I was employed as a rental supervisor by Fred Trump. My job was in part to determine the rental problems involved with buildings at Tysens Park, Staten Island.
[...] I asked Fred Trump what his policy was regarding minorities and he said it was absolutely against the law to discriminate. At a later time during my two weeks at Tysens Park, Fred Trump told me not to rent to blacks. He also wanted me to get rid of the blacks that were in the building by telling them cheap housing was available for them at only $500 down payment, which Trump would offer to pay himself. Trump didn't tell me where this housing was located. He advised me not to rent to persons on welfare.
Pages 37 and 38 from:
https://vault.fbi.gov/trump-management-company/Trump%20Management%20Company%20Part%2001%20of%2008/at_download/file
(Excerpt from a statement from a black tester)
[...] black. On Thursday August 17, 1972 [redacted] at approximately 11:30 AM. I told him that I was interested [illegible] apartment or a one bed room apartment, both of which were advertised in the New York Times of August 17, 1972. He told me that the night before [illegible] a party, and that at that time someone else had signed the agreement to rent the apartment. I asked him about the studio apartment, and he told me [illegible] was a lot of junk in it and that they had no keys to that apartment. I ask him [illegible] that an ad could appear in the New York Times stating that an apartment was available when in fact it was not. He told me that if I had [illegible] party, that I could have had the apartment. I asked him if he could at least show me the type of apartment he was talking about, and he said he could not. We then exchanged telephone numbers and I left.
Page 23 from:
https://vault.fbi.gov/trump-management-company/Trump%20Management%20Company%20Part%2001%20of%2008/at_download/file
(Excerpt from a statement from a white tester)
[...] and I am white. On Thursday August 17, 1972 I visited [redacted] a building owned and operated by Fred C. Trump, with [redacted] The New York Times that morning ran an ad for various apartments in this building available for rent. Twenty minutes after [redacted] was told by the superintendent that these apartments had already been rented or could not be seen that day, I entered the renting office and was told by the superintendent's assistant that the apartments were all available and that I could see them. He took me upstairs and showed me the one bedroom apartment for $235, which was vacant, and offered to show me the studio apartments. I said that I did not have time. He said that I could fill out the application for the one bedroom apartment right away if I liked. I said that I did not have time to do so but that I would come back later and departed.
Page 24 from:
https://vault.fbi.gov/trump-management-company/Trump%20Management%20Company%20Part%2001%20of%2008/at_download/file
Contemporary Interview:
On September 29th, 2016, NPR did an interview of one of the testers, Sheila Morse. The following excerpts are from the transcript of that interview -
https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=495955920
SHEILA MORSE: He went in. He met with the superintendent, and the superintendent said, I'm very sorry, but the apartment is rented. It's gone. So the gentleman said to him, well, why is the sign out? I still see a sign that says apartment for rent. And the superintendent said, oh, I guess I forgot to take it down. And that was that.
SIEGEL: You, as a tester, then were sent in to inquire about an apartment in the very same building.
MORSE: Exactly, yes.
SIEGEL: What did they tell you?
MORSE: Oh, they greeted me with open arms and showed me every aspect of the apartment.
SIEGEL: Sheila Morse says she reported back to the Human Rights Commission and then returned to the apartment building in Brooklyn. After she was offered a lease, the man who had tried to rent the apartment and the city Human Rights Commissioner entered the office. And the three of them confronted the building superintendent.
MORSE: He said, well, I'm only doing what my boss told me to do. I am not allowed to rent to black tenants. So the commissioner said, OK, can you take us to your boss? And he said, yeah, I guess I can.
And then we went to the boss, and it was an office building in Coney Island. And when we got there, there was a great big sign that said Trump Management, and it was Donald Trump and Fred Trump, his father.
Other evidence:
The federal complaint against Trump was settled with a "consent decree". The settlement required Trump Management to implement various measures designed to end discriminatory practices at the Trump properties.
https://www.clearinghouse.net/chDocs/public/FH-NY-0024-0034.pdf
The decree began on 07/01/1975. At that time there were a total of 641 black tenants within the Trump properties. On 05/01/1977, nearly two years later, there were then 968 black tenants, an increase of approximately 51%.
Page 3 of https://www.clearinghouse.net/chDocs/public/FH-NY-0024-0040.pdf
Argument:
The available evidence indicates that it is more probable than not that Donald Trump, by his acts and omissions as President of Trump Management Inc., discriminated against black people in housing. The statements from the testers and former employees show that black people were discriminated against at the Trump properties. Donald was president of Trump Management and was the son of the apparent owner, Fred Trump. In this capacity, it is more likely than not that Donald was involved in the day to day operations of Trump Management. Donald likely had a hand in implementing the will of his father, which apparently included discriminating against minorities. The interview of Sheila Morse shows that Donald was regarded as one of the bosses.
Relating this to the resolution -
The debate description provides as follows:
That is the main definition, but another one could be prejudice or discrimination of another race.
Rules: One must accept my given definitions of racism, and provide BoP that Trump has said or done racist things.
The evidence here indicates that Trump has done racist things.
Pro never offered an offense. Pro forfeited the first two rounds and then complained that con was misinterpreting thesis. Con gave solid evidence of Trumps racist past. Although I tend to agree with Pro that such a claim should be backed by recent evidence, Pro had 4 opportunities to argue for excluding old evidence before bringing it up in R3. Only one side in this debate made evidence based claims. Arguments to Con. Pro used no sources- sources to Con. Conduct for forfeit
Kiss my goddamn ass.
The BOP was on Con to provide an instance in which, according to the rules: "Trump has said or done racist things." "Things" is vague, but it is clear that Pro wants Con to rove that Trump did something which proves his allegiance to white supremacy, or is prejudiced toward another race. While Pro's objection to testers is noted, he never explicitly gives me proof suggesting bias in the experiment conducted with the testers. Moreover, Con offers interviews with previous employees of Trump Management Incorporated which adds validity to Con's claims. Even if the bias in unintentional, old, or outdated, the rules of the debate only ask Con to show "prejudice or discrimination of another race." A strategy which Pro easily could have capitalized on is attributing the racist policy to Fred Trump. Perhaps Pro could contend the charges against the group as well, since the only evidence supporting the theory that Donald Trump is a part of the racist policies is conjecture as he "was on of the bosses," and "likely had a hand in implementing the will of his father." Instead, Pro asserts that black people support Trump. This is true, but it doesn't prove that Donald Trump isn't racist, or hasn't discriminated against minority groups. Con points out this discrepancy. Unfortunately, Con didn't adhere completely to the rules as he didn't waive the last round, so I give the conduct point to Pro. The forfeit at the beginning of the debate made me seriously think about keeping the conduct point a tie. However, the forfeit didn't seriously impede the debate since Con was supposed to go first to begin with.
The instigator forfeited the first Round. Which meant the debate was cut even shorter by only 2 Rounds from 3. Since there is a rule of waiving 1 Round shared by both opponents it is already cut down to 3 Rounds but since the instigator did forfeit and the contender did not give a response in Round 1. The debate was 2 Rounds which is the fault of the instigator.
Argument point
Pro offered no main argument other than to point out that BoP was on Con.
Con said;
"On July 16th, 1968 a complaint was filed with the New York City Commission on Human Rights alleging an unlawful discriminatory practice in violation of the Administrative Code of the City of New York; Specifically, that Fred Trump (Donald Trump's father) refused to rent an apartment to a man because he was black.
A hearing on the complaint was held on October 31st, 1968, before the commission, at which time testimony and evidence were received. The commission found that respondent Fred Trump engaged in an unlawful discriminatory practice in violation of the Administrative Code of the City of New York.
https://www.clearinghouse.net/chDocs/public/FH-NY-0024-0055.pdf
On October 15th, 1973, the Nixon administration's then acting Attorney General Elliot Richardson filed a complaint on behalf of the United States against Donald Trump, et al, in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of New York. The complaint, inter alia, alleged the following:
1. Trump Management Inc. was a New York corporation doing business in the Eastern District of New York, managing and operating numerous apartment buildings, totaling at least 14,000 dwelling units in the New York area and elsewhere. (These facts were not denied in the Trump's answer to the complaint - https://www.clearinghouse.net/chDocs/public/FH-NY-0024-0018.pdf )
2. Donald Trump was president of Trump Management Inc. and was responsible for the policies and practices of Trump Management Inc. (This fact was not denied in the Trumps' answer to the complaint - https://www.clearinghouse.net/chDocs/public/FH-NY-0024-0018.pdf )
3. Donald Trump, et al, through his actions and those of his agents and employees, discriminated against persons because of race in the operation of the apartment buildings, among other ways, by:"
Con shows evidence that formal charges were brought up against trump, but I see nothing about a guilty verdict. Let's read on.
As his arguments pile up, Con shows that there is a consistent pattern that is in line with the agreed upon definition of racism for this debate. Because of the sheer amount of evidence of racist behavior, Con establishes a solid base case, let's see if Pro does anything to negate it.
Pro replies by saying that the civil rights act hadn't kicked in yet, but this is not sufficient because the legal guilt and innocence is not part of the resolution. Pro even admits to the incident cited by Con being true, a fatal concession. The rest of the debate is largely semantics and doesn't change the resolution at all. Argument point to Con.
Condcut to Con for the first round forfeit by pro.
All others tied.
Arguments:
Con only provided one piece of evidence that Trump was racist. This was extremely disappointing to me, as there are many examples. However, I'm not the one debating.
Pro clearly said in the description "provide BoP that Trump has said or done racist things." "Things" is plural, and Con only provided one. That's the first red flag. Secondly, Pro easily beat down the one example Con gave by saying that we're discussing if Trump IS racist, not WAS. Him pointing out that the example that Con gave was 50 years old was completely valid. Had Con given both recent and old examples, it would have been fine, but that was not the case.
This is why I'm giving the point to Pro.
Conduct:
Pro forfeited. That's bad conduct.
Rules: One must accept my given definitions of racism, and provide BoP that Trump has said or done racist things.”
Pro clearly states the rules of the debate are that con must show that Trump has done racist things. The racist things con mentions are clearly uncontested by pro, and pro simply attempts to backpeddle on the rules of tbe debage by changing the goalposts.
I am sympathetic to one debater changing or challenging the rules during a debate in the following scenarios:
- it can be shown that there is a clear harm to either debater if the rules are accepted as is (IE: the rule makes the debate logically unwinnable)
- the rule is obviously being applied in a way opposite or contrary to the way a regular person would interpret the rules. (IE: the rule is being used in a way contrary to its intent) and thus needs to be clarified.
If neither of these things are true here - pro does not show that the rules were misinterpreted, or that the interpretation of the rules makes the debate resolution unfair - I am forced to judge the debate on how a regular person would interpret the rules.
I am of the view con must show that Trump has done racist things to negate the resolution as per the stipulated rules. He has done this, by citing an extensively sourced example of Trumps racial discrimination in the 1960//70s. Pro does not contest these things happened, nor that Trump was responsible - merely that they don’t count. As shown above - these do count according to pros own rules. Pros only response is to present a short list of all the not racist things Trump has done, even if true - this doesn’t negate that Trump has done racist things - which is the condition for victory as specified by the rules.
While con didn’t waive the final round as stipulated - pro effectively forfeited two rounds - then attempted to simply change the rules in his final round.
The forfeits here are much more series than cons final round clarification (he made no new arguments), and the attempt to argue con should be held to a different set of r
Conduct: Pro moved the goal post, in his description he defines the goal post as
"provide BoP that Trump has said or done racist things."
- Which implies that he HAS done racist things. Which implies that the time period doesn't matter. However than later on Pro moves the goal post by stating,
"My opponent has not proven that Trump is racist today, and is using evidence from 50 years ago"
This is a moving of the goal post since previously Pro used a general tense but is now claiming that the goal is to prove Trump has been racist recently. This is an obvious moving of the goal post which Pro spouted multiple times throughout the debate.
Moving of the goal post in and of itself, is poor conduct on pro's part.
You forfeited a round - you get the conduct penalty. You didn’t offer anything at all other than a dismissive throw away line 2 1/2 days after pros opening- and added nothing - which is nearly as bad. You got the Conduct hit for the forfeit - and the second only marginally factored into my decision to ignore pro not waiving the final round. If you had posted a more generalized opening in round 2 - I would have still hit you with Conduct violation the same way I have in literally 100% of other regular debates.
I am not quite sure what you think is unfair here. You forfeited a round - what con did wasn’t too bad - you get hit with Conduct.
It's the standard used and recognized by our courts in civil trials. You may read about various standards here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(law)#Legal_standards_for_burden_of_proof There is always going to be some doubt, no matter how powerful evidence is. It's very difficult to prove things beyond reasonable doubt.
more likely to be true than not" is pretty subjective. If you can give factual, actual instances that happen, that would be better, so I can rebuttal them.
I said "general overview of the debate"
I gave that, I said "Death has to prove that Trump *is* racist. Good luck"
That is very general, and then I said "con will start off the arguments."
This is a very cheap and disingenuous way of saying that was poor conduct and very nit picky.
Once again you said "you didn’t post an argument in the second:"
I clearly stated in the description "con will start off the arguments.
Yes, I would be agreeable to that, provided that my BoP responsibility be explicltly defined as consistent with the "more likely than not" standard used in civil matters. (e.g. "A party must persuade you, by the evidence presented in court, that what he or she is required to prove is more likely to be true than not true. This is referred to as 'the burden of proof.' " https://www.justia.com/trials-litigation/docs/caci/200/200/ ) Additionally, I would like for you to have some responsibility to construct and post your case before I have to post my case.
Your first actual posted argument was just a throw away non argument rather than “a general overview of the debate”, so I count that as an effective forfeit.
Essentially - the only violation was that con posted a clarification in the final round, and you forfeited one round, and didn’t post an argument in the second: this is all I meant by “effectively forfeited two rounds”.
Can you take a look at Ramshutu's vote? I only forfeited one round, not two. He also said " then attempted to simply change the rules in his final round." I am not sure what he is referring to, he never says, but I think over the rules. That is his opinion I attempted to change the rules, death and I were debating what the rules were and what I meant by the rules.
Obviously there was miscommunication on the rules. Would you like to do another debate on whether Trump is racist, not was?
If only that were true but he is human and has the important position in the United States.
Donald Trump is from an orange race of subhuman baboon cross breeds.
geeeez chill, i deleted it so i could give myself time to post an argument as I was on vacation. Also to make it recent on the debates tab, as well as not letting it being self-destructed within a time limit.
I will interpret a forfeited first round as an indication that you no longer intend to debate the topic. I likely will not use my time to generate debate content in such a situation.
Reminder, you've got eight hours remaining to post your R1. Given that you probably live in the US, you'll want to post before you go to sleep tonight.
Simply remember them and post them again to make sure people can see how witty it is.
I feel for u. My wittiest remarks are always lost to an abandoned debate.
It isn't. I clicked on the bell to see previous rebuttals the Instigator gave to me in the comments it just redirects me to debateart.com homepage.
I don't know if the old one is still accessible.
Where was the first version of "Donald Trump is NOT Racist: Change my Mind"?
That is where my comment was and looking through his debates this is the only one he has.
I am guessing when he makes changes to his debates the comments get deleted.
Your comments were linked to a previous debate. This is a new debate with the same resolution, but with an added description (such as changing his mind not being a factor in voting).
What happen to my comments?
Did you re-upload the same debate?
Did you ask the higher ups to remove my comments?
Interesting topic, hope someone accepts