US voters should have to pass a citizenship test in order to be able to vote, but only for Senate and Presidential candidates
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
After 3 votes and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 30,000
- Voting period
- Two months
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
I believe and shall be arguing in favor of the idea that US voters should have to pass a citizenship test in order to be able to vote, but only for Senate and Presidential candidates. This means that other elections on the county and district levels would not require voters to have passed a citizenship in order for them to cast ballots, for reasons detailed in the arguments section. First round acceptance only, Conclusions in the final rounds
1/4th of Americans think the Sun revolves around the Earth: http://time.com/7809/1-in-4-americans-thinks-sun-orbits-earth/
- Because there have been more 1 vote decisions made in the Senate than in the House,
The 15th Amendment to the Constitution granted African American men the right to vote by declaring that the "right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude." Although ratified on February 3, 1870, the promise of the 15th Amendment would not be fully realized for almost a century. Through the use of poll taxes, literacy tests and other means, Southern states were able to effectively disenfranchise African Americans. It would take the passage of the Voting Rights Act of 1965 before the majority of African Americans in the South were registered to vote.
In 1970, Congress voted to extend renewable portions of the Voting Rights Act for five more years. They also added some new provisions to the act.The 1970 amendments included a nationwide ban on literacy tests and reduced residency requirements that could be applied in presidential elections.The 1970 reauthorization also reduced the voting age [link to AGE subpage] in national elections from 21 to 18 years of age. Though this provision was overturned by the U.S. Supreme Court for non-federal elections, the voting age was permanently lowered by passage of the 26th Amendment in 1971.
17th AmendmentThe Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each state, elected by the people thereof, for six years; and each Senator shall have one vote. The electors in each state shall have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the state legislatures.When vacancies happen in the representation of any state in the Senate, the executive authority of such state shall issue writs of election to fill such vacancies: Provided, that the legislature of any state may empower the executive thereof to make temporary appointments until the people fill the vacancies by election as the legislature may direct.This amendment shall not be so construed as to affect the election or term of any Senator chosen before it becomes valid as part of the Constitution.
Amendment 24 [source says XXIV but this is numerically same as 24]ABOLITION OF POLL TAXESPassed by Congress August 27, 1962. Ratified January 23, 1964SECTION 1The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay poll tax or other tax.SECTION 2The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
One-Person, One-vote RuleThe rule that, under the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution, legislative voting districts must be the same in population size. The idea behind the rule is that one person’s voting power ought to be roughly equivalent to another person’s within the state. See Reynolds v. Sims, 377 U.S. 533 (1964).
The Naturalization TestTo become a naturalized U.S. citizen, you must pass the naturalization test. At your naturalization interview, you will be required to answer questions about your application and background.
The 1975 Amendments extended the provisions of the Voting Rights Act of 1965 for seven years. Established coverage for other minority groups including Native Americans, Hispanic Americans, and Asian Americans. Permanently banned literacy tests. Passed by the 94th Congress (1975–1977) as H.R. 6219.
The English test has three components: reading, writing, and speaking. Your ability to speak English will be determined by a USCIS Officer during your eligibility interview on Form N-400, Application for Naturalization. For the reading portion, you must read one out of three sentences correctly. For the writing test, you must write one out of three sentences correctly.
Certain applicants, because of age and time as a permanent resident, are exempt from the English requirements for naturalization and may take the civics test in the language of their choice.
'Maximal unification so long as it is believed that the voters are capable of making decisions for themselves'.
"The US views voting as something that isn't the same an informed decision requiring incredible wisdom and self control but simply one that once you can consent and are a citizen you can vote"
"The U.S. Citizenship is not a literacy test (at all) and doesn't test linguistic capabilities beyond studying a set of predetermined questions" - Con in Round 2. Argument about 15th Amendment.
In Lassiter v. Northampton County Board of Elections, (1959), the U.S. Supreme Court held that literacy tests were not necessarily violations of Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment nor of the Fifteenth Amendment.
"The opinion of the court, delivered by Justice William O. Douglas, held that provided the tests were applied equally to all races, were not "merely a device to make racial discrimination easy," and did not "contravene any restriction that Congress, acting pursuant to its constitutional powers, has imposed," the literacy test could be an allowable use of the state's power to "determine the conditions under which the right of suffrage may be exercised."
"If (uninformed) voters are weeded out by failing to pass a citizenship test, then the influence that these people would have in electing politicians would be substantially reduced"
When you think of 'American ideals' and other 'core' things that the US likes to claim it stands for/is the protector of, a few things can come to mind.... "Defending Democracies overseas", "Defending Human Rights", "Freedom from Tyranny", "Freedom of Speech and Religion", "Right to Defend oneself" are all ones I can think of off the top of my head. You can probably think of many more that I haven'e even listed.
All of these things can be jeopardized when uninformed voters are able to sway the outcome of a close contest to elect worse politicians the nation would otherwise get.
A voter who thinks the sun orbits around the Earth could conceivably believe that global warming is a lie as well, and therefore vote for a politician who wants to drastically expand government surveillance laws, simply because that politician said in a commercial that he also doesn't believe in global warming.
"Hopefully the truth will come out.""Woodrow Wilson was the US president in the 1920s and he said there was a shadow government above him pulling the strings.""I am going to put it all behind me. I've not enjoyed this process in the slightest.""I got kicked out of church, I got unfriended by many people because of what I believe, that the Moon landings are fake."
Contrary to popular belief, it’s a misconception that many societies of serious, educated people ever actually believed in the flat Earth theory. “With extraordinary few exceptions, no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the Earth was flat,” historian Jeffrey Burton Russell noted in 1997. “A round Earth appears at least as early as the sixth century B.C. with Pythagoras, who was followed by Aristotle, Euclid, and Aristarchus, among others in observing that the earth was a sphere.”
A voter who doesn't know what the 1st Amendment is could vote for a politician who wants to ban all mosques just because the politician talks the same way he does. A voter who only listens to Alex Jones for news may vote for a politician that would outlaw gay marriage just because that candidate is a man and the other he is facing is a woman.
The Prison Rape Elimination Act (PREA) was passed in 2003 with unanimous support from both parties in Congress. The purpose of the act was to “provide for the analysis of the incidence and effects of prison rape in Federal, State, and local institutions and to provide information, resources, recommendations and funding to protect individuals from prison rape.” (Prison Rape Elimination Act, 2003). In addition to creating a mandate for significant research from the Bureau of Justice Statistics and through the National Institute of Justice, funding through the Bureau of Justice Assistance and the National Institute of Corrections supported major efforts in many state correctional, juvenile detention, community corrections, and jail systems.The act also created the National Prison Rape Elimination Commission and charged it with developing draft standards for the elimination of prison rape. Those standards were published in June 2009, and were turned over to the Department of Justice for review and passage as a final rule. That final rule became effective August 20, 2012.In 2010, the Bureau of Justice Assistance funded the National PREA Resource Center to continue to provide federally funded training and technical assistance to states and localities, as well as to serve as a single-stop resource for leading research and tools for all those in the field working to come into compliance with the federal standards.
If a person is convicted of first-degree murder in the state of Vermont, he or she will retain the right to vote — even while incarcerated.But a person who commits perjury in Mississippi could be permanently barred from casting a ballot there.It is up to states — not the federal government — to say whether convicted felons can vote, and which ones, and when. So the rules for convicted criminals can change, sometimes drastically, from one state to the next.
In most states, felons cannot vote while they are in prison but can regain their voting rights after they are released (as in Massachusetts and Hawaii), after they complete their parole (as in Colorado and Connecticut), or when they are no longer on parole or probation (as in New Jersey and Texas).California relaxed its rules a little in 2016. Convicted felons sentenced to county jails there can now vote while in custody, but the shift did not apply to those who were sentenced to a state or federal prison.And there are two states that do not revoke criminals’ right to cast a ballot: Vermont and Maine. There, felons can vote even when they are behind bars.“The state disparities are really astounding,” said Christopher Uggen, a professor of sociology and law at the University of Minnesota who also worked on the 2016 Sentencing Project study. “It is definitely confusing at election time, and many former felons are risk-averse — they may not vote if they are afraid of getting a felony conviction for illegal voting.”
Voter identification laws are a part of an ongoing strategy to roll back decades of progress on voting rights. Thirty-four states have identification requirements at the polls. Seven states have strict photo ID laws, under which voters must present one of a limited set of forms of government-issued photo ID in order to cast a regular ballot – no exceptions.Voter ID laws deprive many voters of their right to vote, reduce participation, and stand in direct opposition to our country’s trend of including more Americans in the democratic process. Many Americans do not have one of the forms of identification states acceptable for voting. These voters are disproportionately low-income, racial and ethnic minorities, the elderly, and people with disabilities. Such voters more frequently have difficulty obtaining ID, because they cannot afford or cannot obtain the underlying documents that are a prerequisite to obtaining government-issued photo ID card.
After the 2013 Shelby County v. Holder Supreme Court case weakened federal oversight over state and county election laws, the debate over whether these and other more restrictive laws have discriminatory effects has mostly been waged in the realms of ideology and intent, with most existing studies relying on data limited by time, place, or bias.The catch-22 of course is that the laws have to be passed and solidly in place first to have robust longitudinal data on their effects, which in this case would mean potentially discriminatory effects would have already impacted elections. A new study from researchers Zoltan Hajnal, Nazita Lajevardi, and Lindsay Nielson at the University of California San Diego is one of the first to analyze certified votes across all states after the implementation of voter laws in multiple elections, and it found just that kind of racially discriminatory impact.Specifically, they found “that strict photo identification laws have a differentially negative impact on the turnout of Hispanics, Blacks, and mixed-race Americans in primaries and general elections.”The authors note that the existing research tends to point to three things: that strict voter ID laws requiring identification to cast a ballot do in fact reduce turnout by some amount, that turnout reduction tends to work in Republicans’ favor, and that differential effects have been observed along class and education lines, but not race. But the UCSD researchers call those conclusions into question, noting that analyses based on elections data before 2014 could not have collected comprehensive enough data to rule out racial suppression, and that analyses that sidestep that limitation by relying on survey data tend to fall victim to people of color over-reporting if they voted in prior elections.
"If we admit that democracy is a US core value, than the best way to achieve democracy is to allow as many who are proven capable of deciding for themselves (capable of actual legal consent)"
"In a decision by Justice Samuel Alito, the court emphasized that [...] not only “are States allowed to remove registrants who satisfy these requirements, but federal law makes this removal mandatory"Supreme Court Majority Opinion on the case ruling that Ohio's voting registration purge was constitutional, and that a person who did not vote in a previous election could have their registration stripped: http://www.scotusblog.com/2018/06/opinion-analysis-justices-rule-for-ohio-in-voter-registration-dispute/
"In Lassiter v. Northampton County Board of Elections, (1959), the U.S. Supreme Court held that literacy tests were not necessarily violations of Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment nor of the Fifteenth Amendment. "
"The opinion of the court, delivered by Justice William O. Douglas, held that provided the tests were applied equally to all races, were not "merely a device to make racial discrimination easy," and did not "contravene any restriction that Congress, acting pursuant to its constitutional powers, has imposed," the literacy test could be an allowable use of the state's power to "determine the conditions under which the right of suffrage may be exercised."
How will you get freedom from Tyranny if they start filtering out people who believe non-conventional beliefs?
What is going to jeopardise democracy more than anything else is a way to restrict voters who are concluded to be full-fledged, loyal citizens of the US and who are banned from voting due to a lack of knowledge or who oppose some mainstream ideas.
The US Citizenship Test method of screening would prevent people who actually support the First Amendment and don't know what the Amendment is on a test to score too low to vote, but would allow a voter who opposed it and knew that it was the First Amendment to vote.
Pro has to explain why we should keep the law banning ex-cons from voting since clearly an intelligent and well-informed ex-con is going to have more right to vote in the eyes of Pro than a less informed law abiding citizen
Why is it necessary for everyone to be identically informed and to know exactly the same as one another in order to permit them to vote?
Pro has no more right than those he opposes to prevent someone believing in his core values or theirs to vote.
Voter ID [...] frankly has nothing to do with screening out those who 'don't know something' in any shape or form.
"The fact that Pro keeps referring to other ways that voters are restricted in order to justify this one is in no way at all relevant to the debate since I have already explained that the current restrictions are nothing to do with knowledge and are being opposed heavily from many angles.
On top of this, the US Naturalisation/Citizenship Test is a bit of a joke when it comes to legality. Not only is half of it a literature test which is outright illegal due to the 1970 and 1975 Amendments....
"If a flat-earth supporting, global-warming denying and/or free-speech opposing candidate is able to run for President and gain an active voter base that would mean it is the Media and correctly-informed candidates and news stations who should put in the work and improve their capability to inform voters"
"It, in no way at all, is the voters who should be restricted and punished"
"The minute we begin to punish voters for knowing too little who are full fledged citizens of the US, we are not taking responsibility for whose fault it is that they are uninformed"
https://www.ted.com/talks/theo_e_j_wilson_a_black_man_goes_undercover_in_the_alt_right/transcript?language=en
Throughout this debate Prop has been pushing forth a notion of there being too severe a prevalence of stupidity amongst voters. In order to prove this, Prop provided shaky evidence at every point that highlighted that there are people with outlandish ignorance of facts (or what Prop believes to be facts). From Sceptics of the Holocaust to Sceptics of NASA and the Earth being round, Prop has kept highlighting that there are people who lack information (which offends or disgusts Prop on a personal level it seems) and that they cannot therefore have the right to vote until they prove they believe what others believe to be true as a matter of fact. Even if this alone doesn't disgust or worry you, I fully combatted this line of attack in Round 3. I explained the following:
The US Naturalisation/Citizenship Test is not going to filter out flat-earthers at all because people who believe the Earth is flat are more likely than Round-Earthers to know precisely what NASA is, which department of the government funds it and the details of what it has brought forth regarding Global Warming. That's right, contrary to popular belief, the flat earthers are the ones who are likely to know those details and pass the space-funding section of the test regarding what tax money goes to fund more than your average round earther since they are so concerned with that money as they consider it wasted and NASA to be enacting an elaborate lie. Extremely similarly, people who are actually against freedom of speech and other means of expression are going to know exactly what the First Amendment is since they will be fighting against it and know what their opposed legislation is whereas it's far more likely that someone who is happy to have that freedom and takes it for granted isn't going to know too specifically which Amendment it is and is likely to be the one to fail that part of the test.
Excerpt ... the other part of the Citizenship Test has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence, it tests for knowledge that sure, is partly to do with Politics but do not in any way imply the one who gets better percentage is a more intelligent voter.Something I want to quickly establish here is that loyalty has nothing to do with intelligence, what Pro is actually advocating is to test for intelligence by testing for loyalty and then using a test that tests solely for knowledge.Loyalty =/= Intelligence =/= KnowledgeI will leave this as it is for now and let Pro defend their case but I reiterate: Nearly every single thing that Pro said most voters don't know in Round 1 is not tested for in the US Citizenship/Naturalisation Test.
The last portion of Con's argument against the resolution is that because the US citizenship test does not test for common facts like the ones I mentioned in round 2 (Does the Earth revolve around the Sun, What is Auschwitz, etc) it would therefore do nothing in terms of signaling which voters are smarter or more intelligent.This argument is both blatantly false and a bit of a mischaracterization of what the overall goal of the resolution is. Having voters be able to pass a citizenship test in order to vote for president or senators will not eliminate ALL voters who could be ignorant about important issues..... Thats not what the goal of the resolution is.... The goal of having voters be required to pass a citizenship test to be able to vote for senators and presidents is that it would REDUCE the number of uninformed voters casting uninformed votes that could alter the outcome of elections for the worse, as I mentioned in this quote from the conclusion of my 1A argument:> "If (uninformed) voters are weeded out by failing to pass a citizenship test, then the influence that these people would have in electing politicians would be substantially reduced"[Pro quoting themselves from R2]Furthermore, voters who think the sun revolves around the Earth or don't know ANY branches of government would almost certainly not know other questions that are on the citizenship test. A study that asked Americans questions that are found on citizenship tests found that 16% of Americans missed 4 out of 5 randomly selected questions, meaning they only got 1 question right at most out of 5 https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/06/30/poll-americans-citizenship-test/86559188/ . I'm willing to bet that a good chunk of that 16% of Americans are also among the 33% of Americans who cannot name ONE branch of the government, or the 60% of millennials who don't know what Auschwitz is.
Let's ignore both those factors. If a flat-earth supporting, global-warming denying and/or free-speech opposing candidate is able to run for President and gain an active voter base that would mean it is the Media and correctly-informed candidates and news stations who should put in the work and improve their capability to inform voters. It, in no way at all, is the voters who should be restricted and punished. The minute we begin to punish voters for knowing too little who are full fledged citizens of the US, we are not taking responsibility for whose fault it is that they are uninformed and not going to have candidates promising to better educate and inform the populace since that would cost more money and the informed wouldn't care about the oppressed uninformed knowing more (and over time they will know less and less so on and so forth).On top of this, the US Naturalisation/Citizenship Test is a bit of a joke when it comes to legality. Not only is half of it a literature test which is outright illegal due to the 1970 and 1975 Amendments but most of the Civics Test is going to do nothing but punish voters for being poorly taught in schools and by the media things that they should be regularly told and informed of.I believe I have fully made my case here and sufficiently torn apart Prop's Case at its fundamentals let along its added points on top.Also, the fact that Prop keeps referring to other ways that voters are restricted in order to justify this one is in no way at all relevant to the debate since I have already explained that the current restrictions are nothing to do with knowledge and that they themselves (especially voter IDs) are being opposed heavily from many angles.You cannot test people for knowledge, justify it as wanting intelligent leaders and then say you have filtered out disloyal or sinister voters and leaders at all. I hope I have made this crystal clear.
The minute we begin to punish voters for knowing too little who are full fledged citizens of the US, we are not taking responsibility for whose fault it is that they are uninformed and not going to have candidates promising to better educate and inform the populace since that would cost more money and the informed wouldn't care about the oppressed uninformed knowing more (and over time they will know less and less so on and so forth).
I will argue that the citizenship test as its intended use in the resolution is not the same as a literacy test, and also that literacy tests are not inherently unconstitutional.
The English test has three components: reading, writing, and speaking. Your ability to speak English will be determined by a USCIS Officer during your eligibility interview on Form N-400, Application for Naturalization. For the reading portion, you must read one out of three sentences correctly. For the writing test, you must write one out of three sentences correctly.
The 15th Amendment to the Constitution granted African American men the right to vote by declaring that the "right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude." Although ratified on February 3, 1870, the promise of the 15th Amendment would not be fully realized for almost a century. Through the use of poll taxes, literacy tests and other means, Southern states were able to effectively disenfranchise African Americans. It would take the passage of the Voting Rights Act of 1965 before the majority of African Americans in the South were registered to vote.
The 1975 Amendments extended the provisions of the Voting Rights Act of 1965 for seven years. Established coverage for other minority groups including Native Americans, Hispanic Americans, and Asian Americans. Permanently banned literacy tests. Passed by the 94th Congress (1975–1977) as H.R. 6219.
In 1970, Congress voted to extend renewable portions of the Voting Rights Act for five more years. They also added some new provisions to the act.The 1970 amendments included a nationwide ban on literacy tests and reduced residency requirements that could be applied in presidential elections.The 1970 reauthorization also reduced the voting age [link to AGE subpage] in national elections from 21 to 18 years of age. Though this provision was overturned by the U.S. Supreme Court for non-federal elections, the voting age was permanently lowered by passage of the 26th Amendment in 1971.
Amendment 24 [source says XXIV but this is numerically same as 24]ABOLITION OF POLL TAXESPassed by Congress August 27, 1962. Ratified January 23, 1964SECTION 1The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay poll tax or other tax.SECTION 2The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
The rule that, under the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution, legislative voting districts must be the same in population size. The idea behind the rule is that one person’s voting power ought to be roughly equivalent to another person’s within the state. See Reynolds v. Sims, 377 U.S. 533 (1964).
https://docs.google.com/document/d/12q7jqJmC0HxbXtnbqozU6mWKCYXi5J0HFYftzY_kaFA/edit?usp=sharing
The summary and rfd together constitute 9 pages. The rfd is at the bottom of the document, but some advice is sprinkled throughout the summary if you are interested. PM me for any questions/clarifications.
RFD: https://shrib.com/#Q3RpDXG4Hd7hs0ZfZDQU
Good job to both debaters!
This was a very well done debate and both parties had solid rounds. The debate was about whether or not Americans should have to pass a citizenship/civics test to be able to vote in Presidential and Senate Elections.
Arguments: Imabench contends that a lot of American voters are alarmingly ignorant about basic science and American civics/history and a simply citizenship test can weed out these voters in said elections, until they get their act together. RM, in his second round, says that such a test flies in the face of established American values and that using citizen tests in such a matter is akin to the literacy tests that America used to have that were shown to be illegal. RM drops Imabench's argument that the test should be limited to Presidential and Senate elections. Imabench responds by saying that uninformed voters are likely to vote in bad or poor politicians. RM would later drop any arguments relating to the Literacy Test bit or whether or not voting tests go against American values. I simply don't feel that RM truly addressed Imabench's arguments. Imabench proven that said citizenship tests, when used properly are not unconstitutional or illegal or run counter to American values RM says that the 15th amendment states that literacy tests are illegal/unconstitutional, but Imabench, earlier in the debate said that the Supreme Court ruled that Literacy Tests could be legal and constitutionally kosher if the tests were applied equally and without malice. As such, Imabench did a better job fulfilling his BoP. Arguments go to Imabench
Sources, Conduct and S/G: tied.
reason for decision
What is an RFD?
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>Reported vote: Alec // Moderator action: Removed<
2 points to Con (sources). Reasons for voting decision: Pro and Con's source count was comparable. Con cited mostly reliable sources, whereas Pro cited less reliable sources.
[*Reason for removal*] This RFD is too generic and could be copy/pasted into virtually any debate.
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It's drafterman or zeichen.
All reports are completely anonymous. We don’t even know who’s reporting it, which imo is a good thing.
Ok fr I wanna know who is reporting the votes cause it sure as fuck aint me
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>Reported vote: blamonkey // Moderator action: NOT removed<
3 points to Con (arguments). Reasons for voting decision: https://docs.google.com/document/d/12q7jqJmC0HxbXtnbqozU6mWKCYXi5J0HFYftzY_kaFA/edit?usp=sharing The summary and rfd together constitute 9 pages. The rfd is at the bottom of the document, but some advice is sprinkled throughout the summary if you are interested. PM me for any questions/clarifications.
[*Reason for non-removal*] The voter extensively discusses most of the main arguments and counterarguments made in the debate, and explains why those led to Con winning the debate. Thus, the vote is more than sufficient.
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There's no true morality. American law ethos displays the irrational moral code of the American people. I did make it clear why it matters.
Thanks for the RFD.
You may as well just assess every vote that gets made on this site, lol
ok that's not true I reported one vote that wasn't against me, or two. but barely any relative.
I didn't report any vote on the Shabshoral debate.
It's not me, I only report votes against me and to be clear this doesn't mean all votes against me.
Who the hell reported logical's vote? He damn near wrote an entire essay for his RFD
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>Reported Vote: Logical-Master // Mod action: Not Removed
>Points Awarded: 3 points for argument
>Reason for Decision: RFD: https://shrib.com/#Q3RpDXG4Hd7hs0ZfZDQU
Good job to both debaters!
>Reason for Mod Action: The voter surveys the main arguments and counterarguments, assess the strength of these arguments, and weighs them to produce a result. This meets the basic standard of sufficiency for argument points.
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You don't seem to grasp how objectively wrong Earth's vote is. He literally misses entire arguments made by me that decimated your case.
Pretty hard yeah..... He seems to be really desperate to win this debate, since he didn't complain nearly as much about the people who voted against him in the Ron Paul/Gary Johnson debate he lost to ShabShoral
Is Rational STILL after me?
The criteria for an insufficient vote on arguments are:
1) The voter needs to reference specific arguments/counterarguments from both sides
2) The voter needs to analyze and explain why those specific issues that were won by one side were enough to win that side the debate, in terms of the relative strength of arguments/importance of those issues
These aren't criteria for a "good" RFD or a sound one. These are simply the criteria for *bare minimum* sufficiency. I'm sure bsh1 would be happy to have a site discussion on allowing debaters to opt in to higher standards or some alternative solution if the community wishes for a higher standard, but for now, the standard is pretty liberal, and it seems to me that Earth's vote meets that standard, to a degree that none of the removed votes do.
if you actually applied this fairly, Earth's vote is beyond unacceptable.
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>Reported Vote: Ethang5 // Mod action: Removed
>Points Awarded: 5 points to Con for arguments and sources
>Reason for Decision: Though pro asserted that his was not a literacy test, for all purposes it was. Pro wanted to exclude citizens based on intelligence/knowledge rather than citizenship. This is not only unfair, it is unconstitutional. Intelligence can never be used as a valid standard for eligibility to vote. Con showed, using various quotes from the constitution, how such a law would violate provisions set there-in. His was the better argument.
>Reason for Mod Action: (1) Arguments are insufficiently explained. (a) The voter directly intervenes regarding the issue of a literacy test and uses their own personal opinion to sway their vote (e.g. "this is . . . unfair," "it is unconstitutional," "intelligence can never be used as a valid standard for eligibility to vote"). (b) The voter tries to explain why they're voting for Con without explaining why they're not voting for Pro. That requires examining Pro's arguments or examining the burden of proof in this debate, which the voter has not done. (c) The voter fails to analyze any counterarguments in the debate or do any weighing analysis. (2) The voter fails to explain why they awarded sources points at all, awarding the points without any reference to them in their RFD.
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Re: "Different people have different priorities and concerns when it comes to politics. One smart person could be chiefly concerned about healthcare reformation, while another smart person could be more concerned about entanglement in foreign conflicts.... In more general measures, one smart person would be concerned with potential benefits an action could bring about, while another person would be more concerned with the potential costs....."
And there's the rub. Two smart people can have different priorities and are therefore perfectly capable of voting down either side of the ticket, so what good does eliminating stupid people do for Presidential/Senatorial elections other than silence their voices? This is where either more discussion about the mechanics of smart-voter voting tendencies is needed or where you need to abandon the smart-voter paradigm and assimilate the loyalty argument since I don't see anything in the resolution that requires you to limit yourself to smart/stupid voters.
Re: "Hypothetically speaking, what would you need to see or read that would convince you that smart voters pick the best candidates? What I was going for was "More informed voters -> More informed decisions -> Better candidates/candidates who make more informed decisions"
You'd probably need to abandon the More informed voters -> More informed decisions logic. CON's point about flat earthers is a pretty hard counter. As we just discussed, a generally informed voter can justify voting down either end of the ticket due to having different priorities. You'd either need to push for a test which accounts for a LOT MORE than basic knowledge (which would then open the door for a debate about elitism and potential corruption, but at the same time could be handled depending on evidence you provided in regards to the downward spiraling state of the country) or just assimilate CON's loyalty counter-argument.
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>Reported Vote: JCEurovision96 // Mod action: Removed
>Points Awarded: 4 points to Pro for arguments and conduct; 1 point to Con on spelling
>Reason for Decision: This debate presented very considerable arguments for both parties on the question of whether Americans shall pass citizenship tests for suffrage, applicable only in Senate and Presidential elections. Despite having elaborate sources, the Proposition made more compelling arguments than the Opposition because the latter didn't acknowledge, failed to rephrase on his own idea, or just forfeited to dodge himself from the question, which he did on my debate on Abercrombie & Fitch's shirtless models. The Proposition also made conclusions which clarified the stated argument. Therefore, I give points to the Proposition on arguments and conduct, Opposition to spelling and grammar, and both on resources.
>Reason for Mod Action: This RFD has several problems. (1) The voter failed to voter reference specific arguments and/or counter-arguments from both sides. (2) The voter failed to do any weighing analysis. (3) The voter failed to justify (in any sense) the points he awarded for S/G and conduct. For the record, a debater's activity in other debates is not relevant to a vote on this debate; though it was not immediately clear what bearing the other debate that was mentioned had on this RFD, if any. Ultimately, this vote is insufficient because it is overly vague and lacks any real analytical reflection on what transpired in the debate itself.
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stop pretending that anyone who voted for you has read the debate past round 1 (Round 2 is round 1 of debating) in fact JC didn't read it at all and is salty over me wrecking him in a clothing debate.
I appreciate the vote, but you might wanna explain why you allocated conduct points in your reasoning or just leave it at tied, otherwise your vote might end up getting deleted.
"There are a lot of smart/knowledgeable people on both sides of the aisle who would pass the citizenship test with flying colors, but that doesn't explain how two sets of smart people come to two different conclusions"
Different people have different priorities and concerns when it comes to politics. One smart person could be chiefly concerned about healthcare reformation, while another smart person could be more concerned about entanglement in foreign conflicts.... In more general measures, one smart person would be concerned with potential benefits an action could bring about, while another person would be more concerned with the potential costs.....
"how precisely smart voters are most likely to pick the best candidates"
Hypothetically speaking, what would you need to see or read that would convince you that smart voters pick the best candidates? What I was going for was "More informed voters -> More informed decisions -> Better candidates/candidates who make more informed decisions"...... Where along that line of reasoning would you have preferred I elaborate on?
I don't think that's the natural conclusion to make. I mean yeah, on its face, it's one of the things that seems like common sense (why wouldn't smart voters be able to pick the best candidates?), but when you think about----not so much.Take the most recent Presidential election for example. There are a lot of smart/knowledgeable people on both sides of the aisle who would pass the citizenship test with flying colors, but that doesn't explain how two sets of smart people come to two different conclusions. Smart voter A will say "I want Trump" and smart voter B will say "I want Hillary." Because of the lack of development on the mechanics for how precisely smart voters are most likely to pick the best candidates, CON is able to retort with "You cannot test people for knowledge, justify it as wanting intelligent leaders and then say you have filtered out disloyal or sinister voters and leaders at all. I hope I have made this crystal clear." More discussion on the mechanics and how precisely they produce better leaders was what your case really needed, IMO. Or better yet, no need to even restrict yourself to the smart/stupid paradigm. Going by the resolution alone, I don't think you even need to get into that. If CON wants to test for loyalty, you can say "You know what? I agree! Lets make a test that is centered around loyalty!"
Smarter politicians could just as easily say let's make human farms as it's efficient for the homeless. There's more to a great leader (loyalty) than knowledge.
Solid vote, thanks for the RFD! I just have one question regarding it.... When you say in your analysis that ""PRO never develops the idea of how exactly voters who answered citizenship questions correctly would result in the country having better leaders"" What do you mean regarding the word 'exactly'
The very first argument I make in round 1 begins with how citizenship tests would weed out the very stupidest of voters from being able to vote based on how ignorant they are about critical basic facts..... So wouldn't it be natural to conclude that a voter base being less ignorant of how the government and how the world works would lead to the remaining voters electing leaders with better understanding of how the country and the world works (aka better politicians)?
Tyvm for the high quality vote.
IMO:
I think more to the question would be if only a citizen of a country should be allowed to vote or not. To that question, I say, "Yes, only a citizen." Why should non-citizens have a say in the governance of a country?
A citizenship test would educate a person on HOW the system and country work, but it would not educate the person on the candidate's moral fiber and the issues at hand.
I don't think a literacy test should disbar a person from voting, but I do feel that a sound mind and, in some circumstances, a knowledge of (some of) the issues should be a requirement.
will truly appreciate more votes on this debate.
I am the type of person who will admit if I lost and improve based upon it but in this debate I do not deserve the L. Please consider what Earth has ignored in my R3 (really my r2 as R1 didn't exist in the debate)
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>Reported Vote: Earth // Mod action: Not Removed
>Points Awarded: 3 points to Pro for arguments
>Reason for Decision: This was a very well done debate and both parties had solid rounds. The debate was about whether or not Americans should have to pass a citizenship/civics test to be able to vote in Presidential and Senate Elections.
Arguments: Imabench contends that a lot of American voters are alarmingly ignorant about basic science and American civics/history and a simply citizenship test can weed out these voters in said elections, until they get their act together. RM, in his second round, says that such a test flies in the face of established American values and that using citizen tests in such a matter is akin to the literacy tests that America used to have that were shown to be illegal. RM drops Imabench's argument that the test should be limited to Presidential and Senate elections. Imabench responds by saying that uninformed voters are likely to vote in bad or poor politicians. RM would later drop any arguments relating to the Literacy Test bit or whether or not voting tests go against American values. I simply don't feel that RM truly addressed Imabench's arguments. Imabench proven that said citizenship tests, when used properly are not unconstitutional or illegal or run counter to American values RM says that the 15th amendment states that literacy tests are illegal/unconstitutional, but Imabench, earlier in the debate said that the Supreme Court ruled that Literacy Tests could be legal and constitutionally kosher if the tests were applied equally and without malice. As such, Imabench did a better job fulfilling his BoP. Arguments go to Imabench
Sources, Conduct and S/G: tied.
>Reason for Mod Action: The voter points out specific arguments, impacts them, and weighs those impacts.
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Debates without character limits are annoying.
I'll try my best to get to this.
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>Reported vote: the_bat_man// Mod action: Removed<
2 points awarded. Reasons for voting decision: I object. If Earth wanted judges he/she should have set up the debate as a judge panel process.
[*Reason for removal*] Vote fails to properly explain his vote.
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Hello, would appreciate if you could remove the_bat_man's vote, it has no explanation whatsoever for why points were awarded. Thanks.
go ahead, post it
post pms i am not a fucking privacy advocate I support government surveillance and have exposed PMs on this site itself. Nothing should be private in the utopian society.
Goddamn, what I miss? o_O
Do you want me to post our PMs? I did go over it.
Check your DMs please
we didn't go over this because only I went over it, you ignored it.
We went over this. I did not.
you ignored my entire r3 debate in your rfd
Imabench should not have to select judges to have good voters.
I revoted and kept my vote the same way. I meant Imabench in the explanation.
Earth’s vote is perfectly fine. RM is so arrogant he can’t stanf the thought of him losin a debate.
People don't like to vote because reading long-ass debates and writing their thoughts doesn't reward them enough and then theres always an asshole that gets pissy when they vote the "wrong" way.
I addressed Bench's arguments entirely in R2 pure liar
THIS IS AN UTTER JOKE THIS IS WHY PEOPLE DON'T DEBATE BECAUSE OF VOTERS LIKE EARTH.
No worries, let them vote with errors, that is their own burden to live with.
Earth you DID NOT READ THE DEBATE I AM TELLING YOU YOU ONLY READ ROUND ONE AND BENCH'S R2 REALLY WHAT A JOKE