Instigator / Pro
63
1500
rating
5
debates
40.0%
won
Topic
#5434
Islam vs Christianity: Trinity is illogical (Untrue) vs Allah (one and only is real)
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
27
0
Better sources
18
12
Better legibility
9
6
Better conduct
9
3
After 9 votes and with 42 points ahead, the winner is...
tigerlord
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- Two weeks
- Max argument characters
- 30,000
- Voting period
- Six months
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
21
1500
rating
1
debates
0.0%
won
Description
Embark on a compelling debate between Islam and Christianity as we scrutinize the theological concepts of the Trinity and the oneness of Allah. Representing the Islamic viewpoint, we contend that the doctrine of the Trinity is inherently illogical and untrue, contrasting it with the unequivocal monotheism upheld in Islam.
In this intellectually stimulating discourse, we will unpack the logical inconsistencies perceived within the Trinity, arguing that the notion of three distinct persons in one Godhead defies rational comprehension and violates the principle of divine unity. Drawing from Islamic theology and philosophical reasoning, we will present a robust case for the absolute oneness of Allah, emphasizing the transcendence and indivisibility of the divine.
Conversely, our Christian counterparts may defend the Triune Godhead, affirming the mystery and sacredness of the Trinity as central to their faith tradition. They may appeal to scripture, theological doctrines, and historical interpretations to elucidate the disconnectedness of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit within the divine essence.
Throughout this dialogue, participants will critically examine the implications of these theological positions on understanding the nature of God, salvation, and human existence. By fostering respectful discourse and thoughtful engagement, we aim to deepen our appreciation for the complexities of religious belief while affirming the core tenets of Islam in the face of theological divergence.
Debate Rules:
Burden of Proof Shared:
Both sides are responsible for presenting evidence and arguments to support their respective positions.
Use of Bible and Quran:
Both sides can reference the Bible and Quran to support their arguments.
No Heretical Beliefs:
Arguments must adhere to orthodox interpretations of Islam and Christianity.
Respect for Religion:
Debaters must refrain from disrespectful language or derogatory remarks towards religious beliefs.
No Vote Bombing:
Participants cannot engage in false or biased voting practices.
No Forfeiting:
Participants can only forfeit in unavoidable circumstances and if both parties agree.
Final Round for Conclusions:
The final round is reserved for concluding remarks rather than presenting new arguments.
These rules aim to ensure a fair and respectful exchange of ideas while maintaining the integrity of the debate.
Round 1
Pro
#1
Terms and Definitions
God:
God is understood as the supreme being, creator, and ruler of the universe, possessing attributes such as omnipotence (all-powerful), omniscience (all-knowing), omnipresence (present everywhere)(with Islamic exceptions) (, omnibenevolence (all-loving), and transcendence (existing beyond the material universe). God is typically regarded as eternal, uncreated, and immutable, existing outside the constraints of time and space.
Allah:
Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. His light1 is like a niche in which there is a lamp, the lamp is in a crystal, the crystal is like a shining star, lit from ˹the oil of˺ a blessed olive tree, ˹located˺ neither to the east nor the west,2 whose oil would almost glow, even without being touched by fire. Light upon light! Allah guides whoever He wills to His light. And Allah sets forth parables for humanity. For Allah has ˹perfect˺ knowledge of all things.
Father:
In Christian theology, the Father is depicted as the uncaused person within the Trinity, eternally begetting the Son and proceeding the Holy Spirit. This relationship underscores the eternal unity and distinct roles within the Godhead, emphasizing the Father's role as the originating source.
Jesus:
He is God from the essence of the Father, begotten before time; and he is human from the essence of his mother, born in time; completely God, completely human, with a rational soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as regards divinity, less than the Father as regards humanity. Although he is God and human, yet Christ is not two, but one. He is one, however, not by his divinity being turned into flesh, but by God's taking humanity to himself. He is one, certainly not by the blending of his essence, but by the unity of his person. For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh, so too the one Christ is both God and human.
Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is depicted as the person proceeding from the Father within the Trinity. This aspect of the Godhead is portrayed as the divine presence guiding and empowering believers, operating in harmony with the Father and the Son.
Universe
The universe encompasses all of existence, created and sustained by God. It includes the cosmos, celestial bodies, and all material and immaterial entities within the spatial and temporal dimensions.
Space and Time
Space and time are components of the created order, existing within the framework of the universe. They are subject to divine governance and are integral aspects of God's creation.
Hypostatic union
The Hypostatic Union refers to the theological concept of Christ's dual nature as both fully divine and fully human, united in one person. This union emphasizes the inseparable unity of Christ's divine and human attributes.
Trinity
The Trinity is the Christian doctrine affirming the unity of God as one being existing eternally in three co-equal, co-eternal persons: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. This doctrine emphasizes the relational unity and distinct roles within the Godhead.
Islamic Monotheism
Islamic Monotheism, as articulated in Islam, emphasizes the oneness of Allah, who is considered the supreme being, creator, and sustainer of the universe. Key attributes of Allah in Islam include oneness, omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence(with Ilm or Knowledge present in creation), omnibenevolence, transcendence, and other divine qualities, as revealed in the Quran and Hadith.
1. Oneness (Tawhid): The fundamental belief in Islam is the oneness of Allah. There is no deity worthy of worship except Allah. This concept is central to Islamic faith and is emphasized throughout the Quran.
2. Omnipotence (Qudrah): Allah is all-powerful and has the ability to do all things. Nothing is beyond His power. Allah says in the Quran, "Surely Allah is Most Capable of everything" (Surah Al-Baqarah, 2:20).
3. Al-Khaliq (The Creator): Allah is the Creator of all that exists. He brought everything into being from nothing and has the power to create as He wills. Allah says in the Quran, "Is not He (best) Who created the heavens and the earth, and sends down for you water from the sky wherewith We cause to spring forth joyous orchards, whose trees it never happened to you to cause to grow. Is there any Allah beside Allah? Nay, but they are folk who ascribe equals (unto Him)!" (Surah An-Naml, 27:60).
4. Omniscience (Al-Aleem) (The All-Knowing): Allah is the All-Knowing, having complete knowledge of all things, including the past, present, future and visible and invisible. Nothing is hidden from His knowledge. Allah says in the Quran, "And with Him are the keys of the unseen; none knows them except Him. And He knows what is on the land and in the sea. Not a leaf falls but that He knows it" (Surah Al-An'am, 6:59).
5. Omnipresence (Hazir and Nazir): Allah is present everywhere and sees everything. He is aware of all that happens in the universe. Allah says in the Quran, "Do you not see that Allah knows what is in the heavens and what is on the earth? There is in no private conversation three but that He is the fourth of them, nor are there five but that He is the sixth of them - and no less than that and no more except that He is with them [in knowledge] wherever they are" (Surah Al-Mujadila, 58:7).
6. Omnibenevolence (Al-Rahman, Al-Raheem): Allah is the most merciful and compassionate. His mercy encompasses all things. Allah is described as Al-Rahman (the Most Merciful) and Al-Raheem (the Most Compassionate) in the Quran.
7. Transcendence (Tanzih): Allah is beyond human comprehension and exists beyond the material universe. He is not bound by time or space. Allah says in the Quran, "There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing" (Surah Ash-Shura, 42:11).
8. As-Sami' (The All-Hearing) and Al-Basir (The All-Seeing): Allah hears all things and sees all things. Nothing escapes His knowledge. Allah says in the Quran, "And Allah is Hearing and Knowing" (Surah Al-Baqarah, 2:127).
9. Al-Wadud (The Loving): Allah is the source of love and affection. His love encompasses all of creation. Allah says in the Quran, "And He is the Forgiving, the Affectionate" (Surah Al-Buruj, 85:14).
10. Al-Qadir (The All-Powerful): Allah has the power to do all things. His decree is absolute, and nothing is beyond His ability. Allah says in the Quran, "Indeed, Allah has power over all things" (Surah Al-Baqarah, 2:20).
11. Al-Ghafur (The All-Forgiving): Allah is the Forgiver of sins and the One who pardons His servants. His forgiveness is vast and encompasses all sins. Allah says in the Quran, "And He is the Forgiving, the Loving" (Surah Al-Buruj, 85:14).
12. Al-Malik (The Sovereign): Allah is the Supreme King and Ruler of the universe. He has absolute authority and control over all things. Allah says in the Quran, "Say, 'O Allah, Owner of Sovereignty, You give sovereignty to whom You will and You take sovereignty away from whom You will. You honor whom You will and You humble whom You will. In Your hand is [all] good. Indeed, You are over all things competent'" (Surah Al Imran, 3:26).
13. As-Sabur (The Patient): Allah is the Most Patient, enduring the disobedience and shortcomings of His creation with infinite patience. Allah says in the Quran, "And Allah is the most patient and forbearing" (Surah Al-Baqarah, 2:153).
15. Al-Hayy (The Ever-Living): Allah is the Ever-Living, who does not die. He is eternal and sustains all of creation. Allah says in the Quran, "And rely upon the Ever-Living who does not die, and exalt [Allah] with His praise" (Surah Al-Furqan, 25:58).
16. Al-Qawiyy (The All-Strong): Allah is the All-Strong, possessing ultimate strength and power. He is capable of overcoming all obstacles and challenges. Allah says in the Quran, "And Allah is predominant over His affair, but most of the people do not know" (Surah Yusuf, 12:21).
17. Al-Muhyi (The Giver of Life) and Al-Mumit (The Bringer of Death): Allah is the One who gives life and causes death. He has power over life and death. Allah says in the Quran, "It is Allah who gives life and causes death, and Allah is Seeing of what you do" (Surah Al-Imran, 3:156).
18. Al-Wahhab (The Bestower): Allah is the Bestower of gifts and blessings. He grants His favors abundantly to whom He wills. Allah says in the Quran, "And whatever you have of favor - it is from Allah" (Surah An-Nahl, 16:53).
In Islam, it is important to understand that Allah is unique in His attributes and qualities. He is not like His creation, and there is nothing comparable to Him. Allah is eternal, uncreated, and immutable, existing outside the constraints of time and space. Muslims worship and submit to Allah alone, recognizing His absolute sovereignty and perfection.
Christian Trinity
History of Christianity
From the era of Adam to Jesus Christ and the subsequent 300 years, the concept of the Trinity evolved within Christian theology. Initially, monotheism prevailed, with a gradual theological development leading to the formulation of the Trinity doctrine.
Trinity in Bible:
While the term "Trinity" is absent from the Bible, the doctrine is inferred from various biblical passages elucidating the triune nature of God, particularly in the New Testament.
Arianism
Arianism, in Christianity, the Christological (concerning the doctrine of Christ) position that Jesus, as the Son of God, was created by God. It was proposed early in the 4th century by the Alexandrian presbyter Arius and was popular throughout much of the Eastern and Western Roman empires, even after it was denounced as a heresy by the Council of Nicaea (325).
Reference: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Arianism
First Council of Nicaea
The Council of Nicaea was the first council in the history of the Christian church that was intended to address the entire body of believers. It was convened by the emperor Constantine to resolve the controversy of Arianism, a doctrine that held that Christ was not divine but was a created being. The council deemed Arianism a heresy and enshrined the divinity of Christ by invoking the term homoousios (Greek: “of one substance”) in a statement of faith known as the Creed of Nicaea.
Irenaeus develops Trinitarian theology in the following ways. First, he defines God's nature as spirit, thus maintaining the divine transcendence through God's higher order of being as opposed to the use of spatial imagery (God is separated/far away from creation). This definition allows him to speak of God's work in the world apart from the use of semi-divine agents. Second, Irenaeus removes spatial language and a time element from the concept of divine generation. Thus, although both Logos/Son and Sophia/Spirit are generated from God/Father, they eternally exist with God and in God. Because they come from God, they are divine to the same degree as God, existing in an eternal, mutually interpenetrating relationship, which results in one, simple divine nature. Finally, Irenaeus distinguishes the three entities in their eternal unity through attributing to them different functions in the economy. God/Father is the source of the creative and redemptive work, while Logos/Son and Sophia/Spirit enact the work. However, the logic of Irenaeus' argument demands that the same quality of divinity be shared among all three figures. Their equal divinity provides the Son and the Spirit the power to enact the will of the Father in the economy. The result is a developed Trinitarian theology that posits three distinct entities named Father, Son, and Spirit, eternally united through one divine and spiritual nature.
Book reference: https://epublications.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1108&context=dissertations_mu
God = father + Jesus christ + holy spirit
God = father + (Jesus+flesh) + holy spirit
God = divine substance + word ofS God or divine substance + ????
Jesus christ= only Jesus christ before incarnation
Jesus christ= divine
Word of God:
are all words spoken by God sons of god?
Space and time argument
is God generating words all the time? Because eternal word means God speaking all the time to sustain the Jesus?
Obviouly God’s word could not be before God or at the same time of God but after him. After all its his secondary attribute.
Speaking is secondary attribute.
Holy spirit:
When Jesus is generated from Father and become son of God because he is word of God then what is the generation process of Holy spirit? Is he word of God too or he is creation?
How come the process of generation would be different for both?
Difference between God and Creation in Christianity:
Jesus= word of God= God=Divine essence= Human Flesh = son of Mary(Human)= Son of God(father)
What is difference between God and Creation?
How God creates anything?
Is God everywhere within Universe and outside of universe?
Reference
Psalm 139:7-8 - English Standard Version (ESV)
<7> Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence? <8> If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
Trinity (Explained)
- The Trinity is the Christian doctrine that God is one being who exists as three co-equal, co-eternal persons: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit.
- Modern Christianity summarizes the concept of the Trinity as follows:
- The three aspects within the one eternal God are God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
- God the Father is the eternal and uncreated source of power.
- God the Son (Word or Logos) is the eternal tendency of God to express himself, to create, and to manifest himself on earth.
- God the Spirit connects the Father to the Son and is manifest in the Church and the lives of believers.
Reference:
Distinct:
recognizably different in nature from something else of a similar type.
Synonyms of Distinct:
Different, individual, separate, disconnected
Word of God:
In Christian theology, the term "Word of God" encompasses both the written scriptures and Jesus Christ himself. Jesus is regarded as the embodiment of God's message to humanity, symbolizing divine revelation and communication.
Word of God argument:
Jesus as word of God and also the divine essence of God. So all words of God are divine essence as well.
So God speaks from time to time like bible is also word of God and every time God speaks that is his divine essence and the words are different as well, so does that mean that as words are changing so divine essence is also changing? And are all words of God also sons of God?
Genesis 1:1
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
Plural Pronoun:
1- It is a feature of literary style in Arabic that a person may refer to himself by the pronoun nahnu, ‘We’, for respect or glorification. 2- He may also use the word ana, ‘I’, indicating one person, or the third person huwa, ‘He’. All three styles are used in the Quran, where Allah addresses the Arabs in their own tongue.
Argument:
The use of plural pronouns, such as "we" in reference to God in Semitic languages, denotes respect or glorification and does not imply multiple gods. This linguistic convention is evident in various religious texts, including the Quran. (1)
History of concept of trinity
The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (from the Latin trinus, meaning "threefold") professes that there is one God, but three eternal and consubstantial persons (aspects): the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is the God of Israel (the creator God of Genesis), the Son is the historical Jesus of Nazareth, and the Holy Spirit is the presence or spirit of God that binds them together. The word 'trinity' appears nowhere in the Bible; the concept was finalized at the First Council of Nicaea in 325 CE after years of debate. It was an attempt to articulate Christianity’s belief in the oneness of God with their claims about Jesus and their experiences of the spirit.
Reference: https://www.worldhistory.org/Trinity/
Christain God
Eternal incomplete God.
Father is incomplete without son and holy spirit
Son is incomplete without father and holy spirit.
Holy spirit is incomplete without father and son.
They all depend on each other, so a God cannot be dependent on another god.
The divine Essence is shared between 3 Gods
The divine essence of Father is not the part or accessible to Son or holy spirit and same goes for others.
Argument:
They maybe identical but could not be same, they maybe be duplicate, they maybe be shared.
Divine essence of Father is identical to Jeusus but its not same, having identical essence does not mean they are one.
So they share its same or identical but shared. Means divided between three of them?
Reason:
when Jesus was on earth as fully divine and fully human, if it would be same divine essence then father would feel or know all the experiences which Jesus had on earth, even being conceived in Mary.
Bit question
Essence of God
The essence of God in Christianity encompasses His fundamental nature, including attributes like omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence. It signifies His unity, transcendence, and eternal existence beyond time and space. God's essence reflects perfection, self-existence, and ineffability, central to Christian theology and understanding of divinity.
- Materialized Form: While God's essence transcends material existence, Christians believe that God has manifested Himself in material form through the incarnation of Jesus Christ. In Jesus, the divine essence took on human flesh, allowing for a tangible expression of God's attributes such as love, mercy, and grace. This material manifestation in Jesus Christ is central to Christian beliefs about redemption and salvation, emphasizing God's intimate involvement in human history and experience.
- Non-Materialized Form: Beyond the material world, the essence of God is often conceived in non-materialized terms, reflecting attributes like omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence. God's non-material essence signifies His transcendence beyond the limitations of space and time, His eternal nature, and His perfection. While God's essence is ineffable and beyond complete human comprehension, Christians believe that it can be apprehended through spiritual experiences, divine revelation, and philosophical contemplation.
Logical fallacies:
ONE:
Father, son and holy spirit are three distinct person yet one God because they share same divine essence.
Argument:
Example, All human beings are made up of matter and soul, and matter every where is same and all souls are identical. But every human being is distinct. So having one element in common would not make 3 distinct person one. Unless you can give some picture of it like a body with 3 heads yet all the heads would be different.
Three distinct person would remain distinct even they have something common. Especially if one of them could be fully human and fully divine and have lived a life of normal person and born or incarnated through a mortal mother and then died and resurrected after three days while being immortal and his death is claimed to be salvation of humanity. More detail about death in (TWO)
Two:
Jesus being fully divine and fully human.
Argument:
When Jesus is fully divine and fully human means divine essence in human body. That means divine essence was present in Jesus all the time during incarnation and being present on earth.
Number one logical fallacy:
How can a mortal being hold divine being(essence) within herself, let alone one conceive him and give birth to him? Because his divine essence was present within Jesus all the time. He was born with it while having divine essence within him. Normally a mortal being should not be able to bear the presence of divine essence or divine being near him. Also how matter(creation) and divine essence blend with each other and become part of God? Actually not part of God but fully a God?
Number two logical fallacy:
Jesus is claimed to be Word of God, so whatever God speaks is word of God, and whatever he speaks would become son of God.Holy spirit brought word of God to impregnate the Mary. When Jesus was God himself why he has to be carried through Holy spirit? And how holy spirit was carrying Jesus and how material flesh and divine essence blend again?
God is eternal but is his word also eternal? Why this question arises? Because God has to speak word at a certain time not all the time or during eternity. That is why God’s word is his secondary attribute in Islam. There was time in history when he would have spoken those words to deliver those word. That is why in Islam all the words have been written in (Loh e Mafodh) and are eternal. In fact original Bible is also written there and that is why its perceived throughout the history before corruption that God is one and all who are sent on earth are prophets. Not after 200 years or 300 years after Jesus.
Three (fallacy and contradiction)
Jesus was not omniscient.
Luke 2:52: "And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man.
Mark 13:32: "But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
Here are the verses from the Gospel of John:
John 7:16: "So Jesus answered them, 'My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me.
(it shows many things; one he is not same as father because Jesus cannot give input but what is instructed by Father. If Jesus being the part of Godhead cannot say what he wants but what Father wants which is against omnipotence of Jesus.
Second; what Father says that do not belong to Jesus and Jesus is claiming to unrelated himself from it.
Third; it clearly shows Jesus is bound to places because is not present everywhere and there is no omnipresence because he was sent by Father and also shows authority of Father which Jesus do not have. Which shows Jesus being son is smaller God so not coequal otherwise its logical fallacy and contradiction.
Fourth; when they are one, then Jesus should not say what he is teaching is not mine whatever belongs to one belong to other as well. This is also logical fallacy. And there is no part of Holy spirit as well.
John 8:28: "So Jesus said to them, 'When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me.'"
John 12:49-50: "For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak. And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me."
Four:
Difference of power between Gods and hierarchy.
John 14:28: "You heard me say to you, 'I am going away, and I will come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."
Matthew 20:23: "He said to them, 'You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.'"
Argument: They do not have same amount of divine essence (Father has more, so they are not equal in the sense of divine essence as well)
Clearly can be seen that father is dictating the Jesus.
Jesus is smaller god being son and Father is greater god being Father.
If divine essence is same what makes them greater and smaller? Answer would be given their relation. Question; what relation? Being Father and son. How? Because Jesus was the word of God, not only word by begotten.
Bible is also word of God and probably everything is word of God as Islam also says Allah creates everything by saying “Kun” means Be and it becomes. And that is how Jesus is born. Just like Adam and Eve. They are also word of God. Everything begin to exist is written in Loh e Mafooz.
The biggest logical fallacy is Jesus not being omnipotent here, he cannot make someone sit on his left or right by himself. Being distinct identity he not omnipotent and having even human flesh body and prone to death also make him not eternal because he is fully human and fully divine. So as a distinct person of Trinity he is not omnipotent. As a combine god even then he is not omnipotent because they co-eternally is generated from father and there is not any time where he become father so he is eternally not omnipotent as distinct god. So as combine it even adds his lack of power to combine god as well.
Five:
Seen but never seen
John 1:18: "No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known."
1 Timothy 6:16: "Who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen."
1 John 4:12: "No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us."
Vs
- Genesis 1:26-27 (NIV): "Then God said, 'Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.' So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them."
- Genesis 5:1-2 (NIV): "This is the written account of Adam’s family line. When God created mankind, he made them in the likeness of God. He created them male and female and blessed them. And he named them 'Mankind' when they were created."
- James 3:9 (NIV): "With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings, who have been made in God’s likeness."
Argument: As we know Jesus is fully divine and fully human and God and have been seen.
2nd: god has revealed his likeness in Human. Which proves christian god is just like humans.
Its contradiction so logical fallacy as well.
Another fallacy is that how male and female both are likeness of god?
This is logical fallacy as well. Or christian god is of both gender? Probably holy spirit a female one? And Jesus already a male.
Six:
One is called God other is called Lord.
Romans 1:7: "To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."
Colossians 3:17: "And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him."
Argument: lord is normally used for kings and humans as well while God cannot be used for humans. So bibles name calling different suggest there was difference and one was indeed God and other was king or lord so a prophet not a god himself.
Why there is distinction of not calling them both gods?
Seven:
Jesus calling fellow human being brothers.
Matthew 28:10: "Then Jesus said to them, 'Do not be afraid; go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee, and there they will see me.'"
Argument: Are brother of Jesus not also the son of God? Are they also not Gods? Why Jesus calling fellow human being brothers? It would be very wrong argument if you say his human nature called them brother not divine nature. This is not what Jesus said here. He never said I have divine nature in me. If he had then he would never called other human his brother. And this becoming verse of bible is absurd. Whether its even Human nature saying them brother would be a lie because he is god for them not brother because he is son of god. Saying by god is absurd and it should not be said by god and written in bible. Because its not casual talk of two human being but its something part of divine and said by divine.
Eight:
Matthew 3:17: "And behold, a voice from heaven said, 'This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.'"
One more”
God died because of food.
Man ate the fruit and God has to die because of it, how absurd it is.
Adam ate the forbidden fruit, and God has to die because of it.
A fruit is the cause of death of Christian’s God. How absurd?
One more:
was the tendency of commiting sin also carried to Jesus becaues he was born from mary?
So having divine essence in common which probably in all mythical religion is same that all gods are made from same primordial essence.
In fact its in Hinduism as well where they say all god are incarnates and they have 3 basic gods barahama creator christana sustainer and Shiva the destroyer, and all other are incarnates.
Contradictions
Contraction of Time and space
John 1:18
“No one has ever seen God; but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.”
1
made him known absolutely shows he was not known to Jesus in the beginning or before beginning, its contradiction, if Son originates from Father then how he has to see him in future and get to know, it should be like this, he had already known him because he is part of him not made him known because there is element of delay here
2
its contradiction that God is invisible yet has image and humans are made in that image. while bible says no one has seen God but only Jesus while God is invisible even Jesus should not be able to see him. Which is also contradiction. If humans are image of God then whole humanity has seen him not only Jesus which is also contradiction.
3
Colossians 1:15 (NIV):
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation."
Jesus firstborn then who is 2nd? and all creation is consider the Children of God and Jesus being first born.
image
1
A representation of the external form of a person or thing in art.
2
the general impression that a person, organization, or product presents to the public.
3
An image is a visual representation. An image can be two-dimensional, such as a drawing, painting, or photograph, or three-dimensional, such as a carving or sculpture
1&2 Oxford
Genesis 6:6 - Revised Standard Version (RSV)
<6> And the Lord was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.Sorry and grieved?
My opponent may present his case and rebuttal
wish you best.
Round 2
Pro
#3
Father, Son and holy spirit are one as god. They are inseparable, that means their divine essence is inseparable and is same which arise the claim that they are one.
When jesus incarnated on earth he was 100% divine and 100% human. And divine essence of Father, son and holy spirit was present on earth and within Jesus so it was also contained by mary where flesh was from Mary and created by Father yet divine essence was present in it.
Argument:
Divine essence was contained by mary within creation. And father, son and spirit all 3 were present and contained by Mary in her womb and also flesh of jesus as well which is also creation.
2
If jesus as flesh was not god and did not contain the divine essence then jesus was prophet and mere a human.
3
Only divine essence within jesus as flesh makes him god. If anyone who claim that flesh was separate and divine essence was separate then jesus did not incarnate and also was not god and was also not crucified for humanity as god.
4
If essence and flesh were seperated then jesus was mere human and not so incarnation fails.
5
if essence and flesh was combined then you can not separate 3 gods because they have same essence they must be part of jesus's divine essence as well. So all 3 god were contained by mary and also flesh of jesus and should be omnipotent and omniscient. And how could divine god be present within creation like on earth and mary.
6
Father is separate god
Son is separate god
Spirit is separate god
So they are 3 gods
When they all combine they become another god which is 4th god.
If it would be that all 3 god looses their individual identity then we can say 3 god become one god and blended with each other. But as christian claim that they maintain their individual identity as well so it makes 3 separate god and 4th being combined. And this process is eternal.
So it's not actually trinity but quartinity.
In last round I have poster a image of trinity the concept of 4th god is shown.
7
Round 5
Pro
#9
In the beginning God created the heaven and the eart
Genesis 1-1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1 1:5
Argument1
Is there difference between both beginning?
One is related to creation other is related to god.
Argument2
Why past tense is used for god?
There was word. Word was with god.
A divine book should not have these kinds of mistakes.
Argument3
Beginning is point of time. Something started to begin. There is start. It's with all kind of matter.
Matter cannot be created cannot be destroyed. Law of conservation of mass.
So once its created in the beginning it can't be destroyed. Obviously science do not recognize first creation.
But we know created by Allah in the beginning.
But will not be destroyed.
We all have beginning but not end so same goes for word according to bible. Which is god by them.
While I say everything is created by Allah's word kun.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Forfeiture
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Full forfeiture
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Forfeiture
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Con forfeited
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Full forfeit
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
This is a full forfeit. While I do hate voting for Muslims because they are generally dishonest people. For example you will never see a Muslim vote against a Muslim debater no matter how poorly the muslim side argued their position.
So despite not liking muslims due to the fact they are dishonest and probably follow Satan as that was the angel Muhhammed was communicating with, I will not stoop to their level
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Full Forfeit.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Full forfeiture
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Con forfeited, didnt post any arguments.
https://www.debateart.com/debates/5948-abortion-should-be-banned
my debate now needs voting if u hv time, u could go n vote for either of us
yeah sure, u did ur homework quite well, i assume.
Let's see, some people wanted to debate with me, I will ask them to debate me with close voting, just finish your 3 debates, so I can add you as voter as well for my debates, one would be best.korea and I would ask 2 voters from my opponent which he likes.
uh huh, well u should keep on going,
n u r welcome. [ameen]
LOL= league of legends, though the character is but controversial as far as islam is concerned.. I have many other platform on which I present my arguments. Yet maybe I am continue debating here with close voting.
Thanks for reminder, I do rely on Allah, and pray he may give me patience and courage to be steadfast and serve the purpose for which he created me ameen.
Thanks
character from lol? what's that supposed to mean?
Vi is the nickname I use, n well it's fine, no prob, I just intended to correct.
well, yes I did see that and uh, even if everything is unjust you do know why, so
يَـٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟ ٱسْتَعِينُوا۟ بِٱلصَّبْرِ وَٱلصَّلَوٰةِ ۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ مَعَ ٱلصَّـٰبِرِينَ ١٥٣
[“O you who have believed, seek help through patience and prayer. Indeed, Allah is with the patient.”]
you know this, right? keep on going then. u r doing just fine, especially the thing that even thou he forfeit, u put in the same effort as the first round. it is appreciable, forget what the world says, blindfolds r on.
Sorry, sis vi probably a character from LOL, so I could not guess if a male is using the name or female. Vi being real name I am also not familiar. As English not my first language this mistake I do sometimes. Apologies for that.
How are you by the way. This platform was my best bet but unfair voting is reffrainnng me to participate more. I could not win unless my opponent forfeit otherwise it's so biased and unjust.
r u reffering to me? if yes then, bro, i'm ya sis
n actually younger one.
Thanks brother, I appreciate it.
I meant vi and sorry sis.
I highly respect u, the way you're doing it all and proving it. It is indeed a job well done.
Ok take your time
will do. I may respond to it with a video of my own if i can get some peace where I am at
Np, there is image somewhere in video double check it for references.
2 minutes in and freezing up on me will try to watch later with better connection hopefully. I am uploading a large file so it may be an issue.
https://youtu.be/Ta7zC8po7Mo?si=XKa9o48h5xrPMvMN
Please do
It's more complex then that but I would share my video about how trinity is related to problem of evil.
I might be wrong about that. There is a few ways and all of them combined could work.
1. Natural forces such as humans, animals etc. Are not the only ones on the earth, demons, Satan etc could influence a lot of the evil. I think you guys mention something called the DJINN or Jin for the same thing.
2. A perfect God allows free will and humans decide to use their free will for evil purposes and it's not on God but on humans essentially.
I know certain arguments popular in Islam are similarly popular in Christianity to answer theological problems. This is unrelated to the POE (problem of evil) but I have seen Christians and Muslims use the Kalam cosmological argument for example.
So how Christian answer the problem of evil?
I was currently just explaining Christian beliefs not debating the validity of them.
As far as the Problem of Evil is concerned, Jesus doesn't explain it nor attempt to. Jesus is an answer to the Jewish belief in a coming Messiah. Christians and Muslims i believe both answer the problem of evil in similar ways
Dear, why getting into such a trouble, why something which is always interpreted from bible verses and never mentioned clearly be taken as truth. Bible consisting of old testament and new testament, why God himself not solved the mystery why we need priests and saints to explain for God let alone his existence which is another big challenge we are facing from atheist.
Also, what Islam has given is far more better in fact perfect.
I have debated a lot in 2012 to 2015 with Christians and atheists, though more with atheists less with Christian but last two years I have been debating Christians.
Well it's far more better to considered jesus as prophet then God and in fact trinity, you do not know why trinity was invented to deal with problem or evil, which it failed but greek and Roman or that time were very much convinced of it as they liked complex matter and also gods who were always asking for sacrifice of human could never be better then triune god who sacrificed himself for human. That idea changed those people and little bit solved the problem of evil. Well this topic is so big. I would like if you guys give un biased and just vote for my dream related debate.
"The Trinity is the Christian doctrine that God is one being who exists as three co-equal, co-eternal persons: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. "
It might be more accurate to call them the 3 nature's of God instead of treating it like 3 separate individuals but even that fails to capture it. It just comes closer than seeing them as 3 individuals.
It's just like you have an angry side and a happy side. We could call that the 2 nature's of you and name one tiger and the other lion, but it wouldn't really make them separate people though they are distinct enough where you also wouldn't necessarily call them the same thing
This is where the issue of trinity is hard to grasp. It's literally that no human on earth has the IQ to comprehend it. It's like explaining physics to an ant.
"The Trinity is the Christian doctrine that God is one being who exists as three co-equal, co-eternal persons: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. "
Wrong. I understand the difficulty in grasping the concept because we are so much inferior to God that it isn't possible to comprehend but.
Jesus is entirely God. The holy Spirit is entirely God and the father is entirely God. They are all one and the same exact thing.
They are all also completely unique.
As soon as somebody tries to pin down the concept to debunk it, they get it wrong.
You have to first understand it to debunk it and it's impossible to understand.
One time Saint Augustine was walking along a beach trying to understand the trinity. He couldn't quite grasp his head around it and he saw a boy digging a hole.
The wave would come and fill the hole with water and Augustine asked what he was trying to do?
The Boy said "I am trying to catch the ocean and put it in this hole"
Saint Augustine said "that's impossible you can't fit the ocean in that hole"
The boy responded "and you cannot fit the concept of the trinity in you puny human brain"
I am paraphrasing this of course, but the boy disappeared afterwards and that is when Augustine realized that the Trinity just has to stay a mystery.
It's uncomfortable for humans to admit they can't wrap their head around a concept, but we just can't.
Hahaha, voting for forfeited debate, what a gift. Go vote for dream debate then I would say you have done something against atheist vote bomber.
Plz vote
Plz vote
Underdog
I can do debate with atheist. No problem at all.
Any one wants, come forward.
How would the government stealing everything help Christians to give everything to charity?
@wylted
The globalists try to get us to believe in God; and I (as a conspiracy theorist) think the concept of God is all an excuse to get the sheep (the peseants) to sell all they have and give to the poor to make the socialist dream of George Soros a reality.
I'm not a fan of the new world order; I stand for the flag; I don't kneel for the cross; that's part of the socialist world takeover!
It's all an excuse to try and get us to drink Judeo-Christian blood (by that; I mean the blood of christ; aka communion)!
I certainly am not Islamic but Muslims are not arguing the Quran itself is proof of God. God is quite obviously real, the rest is up for debate.
What is your response to Islam vs Atheism?
Saying Allah is real because the Quran says so is like saying Posiden and Hades are real because this book says so:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/176457190299?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-213727-13078-0&mkcid=2&itemid=176457190299&targetid=4580909053911840&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=603247654&mkgroupid=1236951625700523&rlsatarget=pla-4580909053911840&abcId=9316139&merchantid=51291&msclkid=201baeb050ae1f998fe9c81e9bf1770f.
Now wana debate?
Its matter of fact people do not know about Islam much.
In my debate there are three elements.
1 debating
2 education
3 preaching
That is why I formulate arguments like that.
Thank you all
These doctrines are internally consistent, though they rely on elements of mystery and faith that transcend purely logical analysis, meaning that the trinity is rather more complex and it is established through faith. I assure you, Christ is the truth and the way.
Yeah, iirc a majority of accounts that are created on this site never complete a debate.
It's a shame that there was no real debate and TigerLord ended up debating himself. This seems to happen a lot. No one wants to commit.
It's a shame that there was no real debate and TigerLord ended up debating himself. This seems to happen a lot. No one wants to commit.
Tomorrow one of the 2 things will happen:
1. There will be hundreds of iterations of text in the sky saying, "Islam is real", "Christianity is real" or whichever religion happens to be correct.
2. No such iterations will happen in the sky (so either god is fake or god doesn't care if he is worshipped).
Whichever happens tomorrow is the religion I will subscribe to. All other forms of evidence can be argued to be mere coincidences. Like, "If the flying spaghetti monster wasn't real, then how come DNA is shaped like Pasta?"
There are 2 types of debators; the one who can make a really good argument with over 10 pages of text (you) and the one who can be much more to the point and condense their arguments. The 2nd will be more successful in changing other people's minds because normal people (even most DARTers) won't just read 10 pages of text for fun.
If you want to convert consenting individuals to Islam, then find out a way to condense all of your points into something simpler for people to understand, because very few people have a reading SAT score of 800 regardless of their religious beliefs.
Ok on Saturday I will instigate it.
Sure. But make sure that is clear in the description.
Debates are suppose to be difficult and my faith is important and necessary for me.
We can go like this I will pose the argument and do rebuttals for your arguments though I will compare both stances for people not for the sake of debate but for information while you can just talk and deal about trinity.
Ok? And voting would be based on trinity and arguments related to it.
What you say?
A comparitive debate of The Trinity versus Allah to see "which one makes more sense" is useless. That is not a debate. It is a comparitive study.
If you want to promote Islam, fine, use Muslim sources. But why does it have to be comparitive? That is adding way to much to a debate which really should be focused on the veracity of ONE proposition, and it is a totally unnecessary overload on voters and both opponents alike and definitely lends itself to irrelevent points being made throughout the debate making it unecessaryly difficult.
For every debate I must put my stand point and i am here to promote islam not christianity so i will add comparison as well not only trinity 30000 words should be no problem for you to present your case and discuss another topic which is correlated. Also I want voting which of the theology make more sense and is true.
You cannot take this debate i guess. But we can have a new one.
But, You need to make it clear that we are debating the Trinity.
The oneness of Allah isa totally different topic.
If you want I will take this debate.
That guy ff the debate any Christian on site want to continue?
yup, that is true, but it is better to make things clear to those who may not have gone through those references, believe me in my first debate I did not do that, but most of the time people are lazy to go through the references and start blabbing nonsense.
I could make it short, but as I said before, it was a draft and I could not refine it because I was busy with stuff.
Just looking over your R1 arguments, you spend a lot of time on definitions, full explanations of basic doctrines of both Christianity and Islam, and whole quotes directly from the Bible (as opposed to just citing the relevant scripture). In my personal opinion, there is lot of wasted space here that could be better spent on actual logic and rhetoric.
it's not that, actually about this topic there is so much detail and arguments, no matter how concise I become still there is a lot to talk about. After all this debate about God and everything related to it.
Honestly, if even 30,000 characters isn't enough for you, you need to find a way to make your arguments more concise. There's no reason you should need that much space in your opening arguments.