Islam is a religion of peace. (I am against)
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- The very basis of the religion's hereditary concept is that you can and morally are obligated to convert into it, regardless of bloodline, but that all Arabs and offspring of Muslim parent(s) can and should convert ASAP, regardless of their own belief as well as the beliefs of their other ancestors and family members. This contradictory concept enables the religion, much like Christianity, to have a 'born into it by heritage and yet all who are not born into it can and should join it and force their children and spouses into it' concept that enables it to spread aggressively, not passively.
- The religion began as a warlike-religion. The Christian-run Crusades were justified as revenge against the Ottomans and other things, not actual aggressive justification in spite of what they were. The Muslims have, from start to now, embraced the sword as a logo of their means of spreading and have embraced 'empire' as what any and all Sharia Nations are to be categorised as.
- The religion itself, ignoring culture, still is warlike. There is no single Qur'an verse implying peace is the goal whereas all verses imply hatred to non-Muslims and even MORE HATRED to people who pose as Muslim who aren't 'pure' or 'real'. Which is why ISIS and Al Qaeda were so able to justify their regimes and outlooks from intuitive interpretation about how to go about acting on the Qur'an's teachings.
- It is the only religion to have legal backing out of international fear consistently in both a UN sense and local-nations uniting sense from justifying its violent outbursts and death threats to a Danish cartoonist to their attacks against Charlie Hebdo magazine. They consistently operate legally via the following paradigm:
- When it's mockery and/or violence against Muslims, it's wrong and disgusting abuse verbally.
- When it's the same back, it's okay because being Muslim is something you're born into.
- When you're not born into it and they try and convert you into it and do so by hate-speeching against the very governments who are so liberal and caring towards their culture and heritage, that's all good unless it's Terrorism.
This verse clearly instructs Muslims that there should be no compulsion in accepting Islam. As a result, forcing others to convert to Islam whether by violence or compulsion is prohibited for a Muslim. This also establishes the freedom of religion for your compatriots. They are not forced to accept Islam and so have the freedom to not become a Muslim if they do not wish to be so. This establishment of the freedom of religion and the prohibition of violence and compulsion when proselytizing breeds harmony between Muslims and non-Muslims.
The Prophet (ﷺ) prayed for the guidance (and not the destruction) of the kuffar of Ta'if who oppressed him (Saheeh Al-Bukhari, Book 59, Hadith 42)
This is an example of a supererogatory act. Peace does not demand us to be harmonious with our oppressors since peace and pacifism are not equivalent. Here, Muhammad (SAWS) goes above and beyond in his exemplification of peace to the extent of being peaceful with his own oppressors and promoting harmony rather than the destruction of his enemies. Since Muslims are commanded to emulate the Islamic Prophet, Muslims would likewise be commanded to make peace with their oppressors if they can.
Here are some more examples:
The Prophet (ﷺ) forgave the people of Mecca, despite the years of persecution the Muslims endured under them and despite the wars they unleashed on the Muslims over the years (Saheeh Al-Bukhari, Book 3, Hadith 112)
The Prophet (ﷺ) spared the lives of 80 armed Meccans who wanted to attack him and the Muslims (Saheeh Muslim, Book 32, Hadith 160 & 162)
The Prophet (ﷺ) forgave the murderer of his uncle (Saheeh Al-Bukhari, Book 59, Hadith 399)
The Prophet (ﷺ) forgave the Bedouin who tried to kill him (Saheeh Al-Bukhari, Book 59, Hadith 458)
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
1 : a state of tranquillity or quiet: such as
- freedom from civil disturbance
- a state of security or order within a community provided for by law or custom
- Islam has always been, and is, aggressive in a brutally 'we attack first but blame you for it to make it pseudo-defence' throughout history from its origin to this very day.
- Sharia Nations and their regimes are among the most oppressive throughout history and to date... Oh look, just like #1 'then and now both' applies here too.
- The goal is not tranquillity or quiet, the goal is tyranny and oppression, from how they treat women to how they justify every single element of their culture and Theistic 'theories'.
In the wake of the Manchester bombing, there was a row which showed clearly a key distinction between the Christian and Muslim faiths. Twitter came under fire for its perceived failure to quickly remove a tweet by an Isis supporter which read: ‘Face the people of kufr [non-believers] wherever you are and show Allah what He loves from you. Kill them wherever you find them’. Yet in the clamour for these words to be censored, what wasn’t mentioned was where these words actually came from: the Quran – or God’s word revealed to the Prophet Mohammed. Islamic scholars protest that this passage – outlining the correct way in which to fight a defensive war – is frequently taken out of context. As indeed it is, both by Islamophobes and Islamists, in that it does not condone the killing of innocents (though, in the modern world, that is sadly a very fluid concept).But even within the context in which it was written, it is a grotesque sentence. Nothing even approaching its nature features anywhere in the Gospels. The most violent act Christ is recorded as having committed was overturning the tables of the moneychangers in the temple. Islam’s founding prophet, by contrast, conquered an empire. It is fair, too, for Islamic scholars to point out that Mohammed’s wars were ones of self-defence. Like Christ and the Apostles, Mohammed and his followers were persecuted by those around them, even when they established their own settlement in Medina. But here, too, the contrast is instructive. Christ and all ten of his remaining Apostles were murdered, inspiring through example a tradition of nonviolent resistance which over the proceeding three centuries would take over the very empire which had attempted to extinguish it. Two millennia later, it would also inspire Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and Nelson Mandela to affect real change in the world through peaceful means.
... So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.
You will find others who wish to obtain security from you and [to] obtain security from their people. Every time they are returned to [the influence of] disbelief, they fall back into it. So if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them. And those - We have made for you against them a clear authorization.
They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.
Fascism requires some basic allegiances, such as to the nation, to national grandeur, and to a master race or group. The core principle — what Paxton defined as fascism's only definition of morality — is to make the nation stronger, more powerful, larger and more successful. Since fascists see national strength as the only thing that makes a nation "good," fascists will use any means necessary to achieve that goal.As a result, fascists aim to use the country's assets to increase the country's strength. This leads to a nationalization of assets, Montague said, and in this, fascism resembles Marxism. [What Are the Different Types of Governments?]"If Marxism was meant to become a magnitude of countries sharing assets in an economic idea, fascists tried to do the same thing within a country," he said.
Islamic law grew along with the expanding Muslim Empire. The Umayyad dynasty caliphs, who took control of the empire in 661, extended Islam into India, Northwest Africa, and Spain. The Umayyads appointed Islamic judges, kadis, to decide cases involving Muslims. (Non-Muslims kept their own legal system.) Knowledgeable about the Koran and the teachings of Muhammad, kadis decided cases in all areas of the law.Following a period of revolts and civil war, the Umayyads were overthrown in 750 and replaced by the Abbasid dynasty. During the 500-year rule of the Abbasids, the Sharia reached its full development.Under their absolute rule, the Abbasids transferred substantial areas of criminal law from the kadis to the government. The kadis continued to handle cases involving religious, family, property, and commercial law.The Abbasids encouraged legal scholars to debate the Sharia vigorously. One group held that only the divinely inspired Koran and teachings of the Prophet Muhammad should make up the Sharia. A rival group, however, argued that the Sharia should also include the reasoned opinions of qualified legal scholars. Different legal systems began to develop in different provinces.In an attempt to reconcile the rival groups, a brilliant legal scholar named Shafii systematized and developed what were called the "roots of the law." Shafii argued that in solving a legal question, the kadi or government judge should first consult the Koran. If the answer were not clear there, the judge should refer to the authentic sayings and decisions of Muhammad. If the answer continued to elude the judge, he should then look to the consensus of Muslim legal scholars on the matter. Still failing to find a solution, the judge could form his own answer by analogy from "the precedent nearest in resemblance and most appropriate" to the case at hand.Shafii provoked controversy. He constantly criticized what he called "people of reason" and "people of tradition." While speaking in Egypt in 820, he was physically attacked by enraged opponents and died a few days later. Nevertheless, Shafii's approach was later widely adopted throughout the Islamic world.By around the year 900, the classic Sharia had taken shape. Islamic specialists in the law assembled handbooks for judges to use in making their decisions.
And the disbelievers planned, but Allah planned. And Allah is the best of planners.
And [remember, O Muhammad], when those who disbelieved plotted against you to restrain you or kill you or evict you [from Makkah]. But they plan, and Allah plans. And Allah is the best of planners.
And those before them had plotted, but to Allah belongs the plan entirely. He knows what every soul earns, and the disbelievers will know for whom is the final home.
- Islam has always been, and is, aggressive in a brutally 'we attack first but blame you for it to make it pseudo-defence' throughout history from its origin to this very day.
- Sharia Nations and their regimes are among the most oppressive throughout history and to date... Oh look, just like #1 'then and now both' applies here too.
- The goal is not tranquillity or quiet, the goal is tyranny and oppression, from how they treat women to how they justify every single element of their culture and Theistic 'theories'.
Since Muslims are required to emulate their prophet, then we are only required to conduct wars in cases of self-defence. Since it is clearly peaceful to avoid offensive wars and only fight in cases of self-defence, Con indirectly affirmed the resolution.
Of course, while Islam is a religion of peace, it is not a religion of pacifism. Sometimes, it is moral to engage in war against the oppressors in the short-term to uphold peace and justice in the long-term. An example of this would be the Allies fighting the Nazis in order to defeat an evil ideology and to achieve greater peace in the future.
Peace does not demand us to be harmonious with our oppressors since peace and pacifism are not equivalent.
In Islam, like in other monotheistic traditions and in compliance with all universal norms of morality, adultery is condemned.The Qur’an firmly forbids adultery in this verse: "Those who commit adultery, men or women, give each of them a hundred lashes" Qur'an 24: 2.It is noteworthy that the Qur’an does not stipulate stoning as punishment but rather “ a hundred lashes” that remains an exclusively dissuasive sanction.It should be equally noted that both men and women are penalized for adultery, unlike what is generally assumed, namely that only women are blamed and responsible for adultery.Notably, there is no verse that talks about stoning either men or women or for committing adultery.The Qur'anic sanction prescribed for adultery - for both men and women - is the "flogging," a measure introduced as a corporal deterring punishment to replace the practice of stoning. Stoning was actually an inherent custom in the Mosaic law of Jewish communities living in the Medina at that time.This measure of flogging - a hundred lashes - came to replace that most tragic measure of stoning to death, which was very common at that time.It is true that the practice of stoning, which was originally a Jewish tradition, has long survived in the Arabian lands and resisted all attempts of reform, despite its evident absence in the sacred text.The concept of stoning is maintained in the Muslim law, and its practice is justified later by virtue of a controversial interpretation of a hadith related to some cases where the adulterers voluntarily confessed their sin in front of the Prophet during the Medina period.It should be clarified here that the Qur'an has voluntarily repealed the practice of stoning and replaced it with the corporal punishment of one hundred lashes, which reflected the universally recognized judicial system at that time.
Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.
Those who said about their brothers while sitting [at home], "If they had obeyed us, they would not have been killed." Say, "Then prevent death from yourselves, if you should be truthful."And never think of those who have been killed in the cause of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive with their Lord, receiving provision,Rejoicing in what Allah has bestowed upon them of His bounty, and they receive good tidings about those [to be martyred] after them who have not yet joined them - that there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve.They receive good tidings of favor from Allah and bounty and [of the fact] that Allah does not allow the reward of believers to be lost -Those [believers] who responded to Allah and the Messenger after injury had struck them. For those who did good among them and feared Allah is a great reward -Those to whom hypocrites said, "Indeed, the people have gathered against you, so fear them." But it [merely] increased them in faith, and they said, "Sufficient for us is Allah, and [He is] the best Disposer of affairs."So they returned with favor from Allah and bounty, no harm having touched them. And they pursued the pleasure of Allah, and Allah is the possessor of great bounty.
- http://www.asma-lamrabet.com/articles/is-stoning-the-punishment-for-adultery-in-islam/
(Con’s source)
“Adulterers who have somehow hurt the one they cheated on so much that even if the one they cheated on says 'don't hurt them' we must stone them to death are one of many examples of the barbaric nature of Islam and its lack of peace not just in practise but in teachings.”
RFD in comments:
https://www.debateart.com/debates/471?open_tab=comments&comments_page=1&comment_number=80
"War will exist as long as any community desires to impose its will on another community more than it desires peace. Coercive men see only slaves and rivals in the world. If the meek refuse war to defend themselves against coercion, then they deserve to be slaves. Peace-lovers can only have what they love by being better at what they hate than those who love war. There is no road to peace that does not pass through war." -Orson Scott Card, Hidden Empire
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First off, I would have preferred a better setup (description). For example, who has BoP is something worthy of debates itself, so clarifying in the debate setup would have (hopefully) avoided the debaters needing to spend so long off topic on it. Or both debaters pulling the same dictionary for the same word, somehow in disagreement...
Regarding what counts as the true religion, I will take a side. For anyone to judge this at all, a side must be picked. As of now I am at the start of R2, and since Nazis have been mentioned by both debaters, I'll use them as an example: The person who claims true Nazidom is unrealized, and we should give real Nazidom a try, is clearly up to no good. ... This debate defines Islam as a religion, not as a hypothetical book wholly separate from its followers. Those followers are not solely the result of its teachings, but their lives (and for peace to exist, the lives of those around them) are impacted for better or worse by said teachings.
Rat's example of Christianity's inspirations was a nice double-edged sword. It sets a point of contrast. If inspiring such men of peace is accepted as evidence of a religion of peace, then similar men from Islam would in by the same standard count as evidence of a religion of peace (Moe could have won the debate on this, but chose to drop it).
Similarly Moe's examples of "give zakah" and " pay the prescribed alms" and " until they give the jizya" could have given Rat easy victory (had he picked up the points), as extortion backed with the threat of violence is not peace. With a sword to the throat, the victim certainly won't feel harmony/tranquility, and if the aggressor feels such, they are an inhuman monster.
4:90 (yes, Rat initially used the wrong link). It leading in to a rule against making alliances with non-Muslims was pretty bad (doubly so with frequent use of the word kill). But of course, peace and pacifism are not always the same thing (the crux of Moe's case). What 4:34's opinion of women, was certainly not peaceful (meet mere arrogance with violence...).
Accidental Concessions: I should note that Moe took a huge risk in stating "If Con can prove the existence of any non-peaceful Quranic verse or sahih hadith, then he will successfully negate the resolution" given what had already transpired in the debate. At the same time, Moe caught a pretty damning line in one of Rat's sources (a few more like this would have claimed the source point). Weirdly Moe then went on to outright agree with the crux of Rat's case that Muslims seek fake peace for the sake of oppression... I am befuddled as to why he thought this was victory. Rat wisely countered with Moe's own bit about the Nazis.
"Recall that Muslims are required to emulate and follow the conduct of the Islamic Prophet." While this was used well by showing times Mohammad spared lives, it also opened the door to some really sickening information, but the topic is warfare, not child rape.
"Claims are cheap" under this R2 heading from Moe, he did exactly what was predicted by Rat. It goes back to points such as "like ISIS or justify war with Israel" (which Rat really should have expanded upon more directly. Same with the single mention of the Ottoman Empire). If Sharia law countries (experts at obeying the Koran) are secretly "false Muslims," then true Islam exists no more than true communism, making the resolution false.
Overall this debate strongly implied Islam is more opposed to peace than in favor of it.
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Conduct is not something I thought would play into this, particularly as debaters getting worked on on a topic like this is to be expected, but the line was crossed too many times. Comparing Islam to female genital mutilations was out of nowhere and trying to make the audience queasy with talk of circumcised males harming themselves; it was a very cheap appeal. Just consider the low moment of the debate "Hmm, can't just hurt them, someone offends you via insulting Muhammad or Allah? AYOOOOOOOOOO BEAT THAT BOY 'til he screams for mercy and then slice his head as you do goats for Lols as their body squirms on an annual basis." It left the final round feeling like something other than a continuation of a logic based debate, but instead something I'd expect to see in one of those rap battles.
Thank you for your advice.
A good starting point would be to address the arguments I gave for the resolution in R1 because you do not seem to even know that they exist.
You will fail. I will make sure of it.
No, It's not too late to point out a contradiction to the voters. The claim was false anyway, I clearly defined what Islam is in the second round.
It's too late now.
RM from comment #27:
"And Islam isn't the people as Pro defined in R2."
Also RM from round 3:
“Islam has yet to be fully defined but at least now we see that Pro has stated that to him, personally, it's only the scriptures that matter.”
If I did not fully define Islam, how do you know what it does and does not include?
" Imagine if this were a physical competition, we do not credit the extra miles someone runs outside of a marathon." Good point.
Regarding if the comment section is the debate to be voted on... I don't want to simply call Someone Else an idiot, but I will say they are highly misinformed. I can say they are misinformed, because I am a valid authority on the subject (information in my profile)
Imagine if someone says nothing inside the debate, then spends weeks whining in the comment section begging people to vote for them (this has happened numerous times). When judging the debate, would you logically follow the debate setup rules (such as a character limit, timing of the rounds etcetera)? Or would you dismiss the debate structure to vote based on anything else? Imagine if this were a physical competition, we do not credit the extra miles someone runs outside of a marathon.
You could for example have first hand information that Muhammad preached against peace, yet would that be fair to bring up as justification for a vote on this debate? While you could mention it as a side note, the ballot is to reflect the competition between them inside the arena.
"including how you would vote against me for a comment." If your referring to now, the blocking happened before I made the comment. Besides I heard from someone else that what you say in the comment section counts.
@Ragnar
I don't want to commit revenge voting despite being ticked off by RM. If needed, I could simply not vote on this debate.
RM, of course none of those three were. Why it's a double edged sword is that your opponent could name three similar men who happened to be Muslim (I will not do his research for him by listing examples).
Alec, I have no clue how you could twist that so badly. Plus comments (while related) are not the debate. Some people try to prove themselves right after debates end, but it doesn't count. Nor would arguments from anyone other than the debaters... I will however say that you could cast non-scoring votes, so as to get practice. Your biggest problem right now is wanting to commit what looks like revenge voting.
If I say in a comments section that I actually believe the opposite and am playing devil's advocate that can't and will never be sufficient reason to vote against me.
I blocked you for several reasons, including how you would vote against me for a comment.
And Islam isn't the people as Pro defined in R2.
It is not a concession. The religion I am referring to isn't Islam.
"I also agree a religion can be peaceful." This is a concession. Stuff you say in the comments matters and I plan on voting primarily for Pro. Also, why dd you block me?
None of those 3 were Muslim. I am happy for you to vote but I have not addressed that point as I also agree a religion can be peaceful. Islam just happens to have a different end-goal to peace.
How do you each prefer to be referred? And do either of you object to a vote from me? If objections exist (be it due to my voting style, or more likely military service in Iraq), I will assign no points.
I have not read it all yet, but I am finding it engaging enough to continue (save for certain things which should have been handled prior to the start).
...
I will say right now I liked the reference to "Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and Nelson Mandela." As much as it is a rather obvious double edged sword. In any case, showing ways a religion can be considered "of peace," avoids attempted K's to the topic by saying 'religion cannot be of peace,' and gives a nice potential area for contrasting evidence.
168-174 not 172 sorry
Please see below (my previous comment).
Hi guys, I believe my strategy here, of enabling Pro to dictate angles and even some definition stuff, but refusing to budge on BoP and then using my weaker start and Pro's rigid structure against him in R3 isn't bad conduct or fallacious tactics ad Pro still has R3 and R4 to reply toe, but is very good middle-ground baiting and checkmating. Take a read and perhaps vote as well. Thanks in advance, I was nervous of the way I went about this debate but I used the Four-Round amount and my opponents psychology and style to my advantage optimally, I believe.
Good luck with your new angle. It will fail and I will disprove myself it need be while turning your case against you while supporting my fourth contention of Round 1 to finish it off.
>Before you use that I said 'Islam is peace to achieve war'
Yeah, that's a concession.
>you said fighting to achieve peace is actually peace and not war.
No, I did not. I said that a war that attempts to achieve peace in the long-term is peaceful.
Before you use that I said 'Islam is peace to achieve war' and that I conceded that it is peace. I will refer to your Nazi analogy and explain how if the aim and purpose of the submission and tranquility is to enable and encourage fierce powers that be, that this is the opposite of peace since you said fighting to achieve peace is actually peace and not war.
I'm playing Devils advocate when I say this. Can you add a source?
In the same ruling, al-Azhar found that the man's children, presumably raised Christian but considered Muslim because of their father, must be killed upon reaching puberty if they did not renounce Christianity and become Muslims.
RM, here's a tip:
Don't just look at the Qur'an. From what I've heard, the Qur'an is the relatively innocuous part that Muslim proselytizers want the outside world to see, kind of like what Mormons do with the Book of Mormon, though in the latter case it was probably more intentional.
Look at the Hadiths, and at the prevailing interpretations of Muslim holy texts. In 1978 al-Azhar University, the highest authority in Sunni Islam, issued a fatwa ruling that a Muslim man living in Germany who converted to Christianity must be put to death.
BOP is shared, not solely on pro. If it is not shared and Con does not negate the resolution, then he has not made his case.
Never mind
I think the BoP is shared.
An agreement about the BoP is something you need to nail down before you debate.
No, it is not. Burden of proof is shared equally. If you negate the proposition, then you have to provide evidence for that negation.
Pro but there's a fair share of antiproof that I need to produce.
Who has the BoP?
Interesting debate. I plan on voting on it if I have the time for it when it is done.
It definitely makes the debate more controlled and provides organization to the debate. Rational, since you are negating the proposition, you have to provide evidence that Islam is not a religion of peace. While I have to provide evidence that Islam is a religion of peace since I am affirming the resolution.
There doesn't have to be.
There is no debate structure.
We also agree on a few other things, you just don't know my stances too well as they are very context-based/situational.
Finally we agree on something.