Instigator / Pro

Sir.Lancelot

1587

rating

182

debates

55.77%

won

Topic

#4691

Resolved: Universal Male Hierarchy is a myth.

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Better arguments

Better sources

Better legibility

Better conduct

After 2 votes and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...

FishChaser

Parameters

Publication date: 07.09.2023 09:14PM
Last updated date: 09.01.2023 10:40PM
Type: Rated
Number of rounds: 3
Time for argument: Two days
Max argument characters: 10,500
Voting period: Two weeks
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open
Minimal rating: None

Contender / Con

FishChaser

1553

rating

debates

55.26%

won

Description

Resolution only deals with the wolf archetypes in relation to humans & society.

Essentially Pro argues that this hierarchy spectrum is nonexistent in crowds/communities. These hierarchies exist only in cliques and cults.

This debate is determining the accuracy of “Bro Science.”

Socio-Sexual Male Hierarchy:

Alpha- Alphas are confident, dominant, charismatic, and natural leaders. Highly attractive to women. Alphas are extroverts & highly successful in their careers. They thrive on challenges.

Sigma- The introverted Alpha. Sigmas are confident lone wolves who do not seek social attention. Immensely confident & highly attractive to women as they are mysterious & charismatic.

Beta- Followers of the Alpha. Betas play safe and avoid risks. They lack self esteem and confidence. Betas worship women and blindly obey orders. They are reserved and idealistic.

Delta- The average normal guy. They are hard workers who lack drive & ambition and struggle with attracting women. They are society’s worker drones who don’t believe in self-improvement.

Gamma- They are unattractive, bitter & introspective. Confused with the hierarchy, they fail to follow social rules. Unsuccessful in attracting women and tend to be obsessive lovers, stalkers & narcissists.

Omega- Polar opposite of Alphas, Omegas are Social Outcasts. Mostly nerds, they are needy, clingy and avoided by everyone. Being undesirable & damaged, these social rejects fail to attract women.

Round 1

Sir.Lancelot

07.10.2023 12:57AM

Pro

Preamble

As the resolution states, there is no spectrum where there are alpha males and beta males in society. These roles only exist in small or tight groups.

Framework

As I am arguing a negative, this naturally means that the responsibility to prove that there does exist a hierarchy where some men fall into the category of beta males or alpha males falls to Con. If I can demonstrate the origin of this myth and explain how it works, then I win.

Alpha Male Lies & Origins

Self-proclaimed alpha males want to sell you on the idea that you're a beta male because it works for their product.

The reality is there are no alpha males or beta males. I believe it's more simple than that.: You're either a man or you aren't.

So the roots of this pyramid scheme have evolved from two people.: Fanboys and The Dating Coach or Fitness Guru that wants to preach them a lifestyle they can obtain without their help. This isn't to say their advice doesn't work. Only that their intention is to make money by profiting off of you and these results are attainable without their help.

Let's look at The Johnny Bravo Complex.

Hierarchy & Status

People defend the idea of the alpha male by appealing to the level of attention they receive from women and their glamorous lifestyles. If a man makes six figures, has a great body, and is handsome enough. Then he will attract more women. While it's true he appeals to more women, it is only a certain demographic of women. The richer you are, the more women you will attract, but only a specific type of woman. Meanwhile, he does attract more women but more women might also find him less attractive because they see him as unattainable, so they pursue someone in their league.

Plenty of rednecks and white supremacist see Donald Trump as an alpha male, but there are others who just see him as a narcissistic manchild that reeks of insecurity and fake bravado. But compared to Andrew Tate, Donald is just some elderly, fat politician. The same fans who worshiped Trump would just as easily replace him with someone who is a bigger personality, like Andrew. If Andrew Tate openly criticized Trump for being a weak beta male, those same people who praised Trump for speaking truth to the left would not hesitate to turn on him and lynch him.

There are also old-school scholars and people of today's time who praise Winston Churchill for being a traditionally masculine man, but he was no Clint Eastwood or Theodore Roosevelt. Churchill was a binge-eating chain smoking alcoholic who was slightly shorter than the average man of his time and he walked with a cane. While his ideas of race and politics might be associated with stereotypically traditional masculine men, Winston was the furthest thing from traditionally masculine.

Theodore on the other hand was into.:

Fitness.
Hunting.
Combat sports.

Winston was into.:

Drinking to excess.
Binge-eating.
Chain-smoking.
Reading.

All of the things that Winston did are the exact opposite of what a stereotypical alpha male does and yet, it stands that Winston is considered one of the most masculine men in history.: https://www.artofmanliness.com/character/advice/motivational-posters-winston-churchill-edition-part-i/

So before we can assess whether such a hierarchy exists, we need to determine one thing.

The Definition of an Alpha Male

First of all, what is an alpha male and what determines if one man is more alpha than another?

Jordan Peterson is a god of his domain, but his profession isn't regarded as conventionally masculine. Yet, Jordan Peterson is a huge role model for guys that try to become alpha males.

If the answer to this intrinsic question is that an alpha male is strong, aggressive, well-disciplined, and a good worker. I would counter that these are all qualities all men possess and should strive to possess. And do all alpha males have to be muscular? Because my example of Winston Churchill proves this isn't the case.

Who would be more an alpha in this following example? If we take Mariusz Pudzianowski in the prime of his lifting days and compare him to Andrew Tate when he got the World Kickboxing Title Championship, who would be considered more of an alpha male?

Mariusz is absolute trash at fighting, but he's the World's Strongest Man. Yet, we have Andrew Tate who is one of the world's best fighters, but he's nowhere near as strong as Mariusz Pudzianowski.

Now another critical question.

Is Johnny Bravo a Chad Alpha Male or not?

Let's look at the positives.: He's tall, handsome, fashionable, and is muscular.

But the problem is despite these qualities.: He gets no chicks, has no game or charisma, is not very popular, and still lives at home with his mom.

Conclusion

There is no specific definition or criteria of what an "alpha male" is. My definition in the description provides an example, but nobody can really define it. Inconsistencies are too widespread in these gender norms that it makes the term 'alpha male' fundamentally meaningless.

So the following is my conclusion.: You're either a man or you aren't.

It doesn't get any more complex than that.

FishChaser

07.10.2023 03:27AM

Con

There are traits/people that are more and less attractive just as there are traits/people that are more or less likely to take on certain roles in society. Part of my job is to show the overlap between SMV (sexual market value) and the more general social hierarchy while showing that pro is conflating two separate things. The overlap exists in terms of psychology even though every alpha male socially isn't "hot" physically. These types are personality types rather than SMV categorizations but if you take two men who are both 7/10 physically women will prefer the one with an alpha personality over the one with a beta personality almost universally unless the alpha male is overly alpha. There is also an element of how much of this or that you are, not just perfect you either fit into or don't boxes.

I win if voters recognize that the following types of men exist, that women generally gravitate towards the "alpha" and "sigma" ones personality wise and that the types play a large part in where you end up financially and socially (I have omitted parts of Pro's descriptions that directly conflate SMV with the types or just aren't necessarily true and added my own versions of parts that I feel are more accurate)

Alpha- Alphas are confident, dominant, charismatic, and thrive psychologically in leadership roles. Alphas are extroverts.

Sigma- The introverted Alpha. Sigmas are confident lone wolves who do not seek social attention. They are often perceived as mysterious & charismatic.

Beta- Followers of the Alpha. Betas play safe and avoid risks. They are reserved and prefer to get along and fit in.

Delta- The average normal guy. They are society’s worker drones who see themselves as more alpha but are somewhere between alpha and beta.

Gamma- They are bitter & introspective. At odds with the hierarchy, they fail to follow social rules. These types try to be alphas but fail in their own ways.

Omega- Omegas are Social Outcasts. They are oblivious about the social hierarchy and either try to live outside of it or survive in it as autistic nerds.

Ask yourself as a voter if you can think of any examples of men who don't ultimately fit into one of these categories more than the others to the extent that they mostly exhibit those traits. They don't have to fit perfectly but I guarantee every human male mostly fits into one of the 6 types.

he does attract more women but more women might also find him less attractive because they see him as unattainable

This is the incorrect way to interpret a woman saying someone is out of their league. It isn't that they see them as less attractive, they see themselves as less attractive and unable to attract someone on that level. There are virtually no women who don't prefer more money, tallness, handsomeness etc.

Plenty of rednecks and white supremacist see Donald Trump as an alpha male, but there are others who just see him as a narcissistic manchild that reeks of insecurity and fake bravado.

Donald Trump has an alpha male personality. If you disagree it's either that you think he's a pussy or you just don't want to associate him with something you think is inherently a compliment. There are plenty of alpha males who are narcissists, douche bags, manchilds etc. You can even be a pussy when it comes to physical confrontation and be an alpha male. What makes Donald Trump an alpha male is that he thrives in very extraverted leadership roles and has a belligerent style of doing things.

Who would be more an alpha in this following example? If we take Mariusz Pudzianowski in the prime of his lifting days and compare him to Andrew Tate when he got the World Kickboxing Title Championship, who would be considered more of an alpha male?

The more extraverted, leadership role seeking, socially aggressive etc.

Is Johnny Bravo a Chad Alpha Male or not?

He is a socially inept Chad. Chad refers to 8-10/10 SMV males who tend to be more alpha because of conditioning and genetics. It is not the same thing as being an alpha male though.

Round 2

Sir.Lancelot

07.10.2023 04:49AM

Pro

Con states that women prefer an alpha male over a beta, which then raises the following question.

What makes an alpha an alpha? Is it personality or physique?

If a 4’11 man with a high-pitched voice (Gilbert Gottfried) had a Type-A personality (Alpha male personality) were to meet a guy who’s 6 foot and ripped, but with a beta personality. Ultimately, who is more of an alpha?

Most people would laugh if you chose the former. The most charming and popular people of communities are rarely brash or egotistical. Brute types who are well-known might be able to scare people by the threat of violence, but this doesn’t mean their victims respect them like their fans or their close friends.

FishChaser

07.10.2023 11:14AM

Con

Con states that women prefer an alpha male over a beta, which then raises the following question.

Women prefer the status and personality traits of an alpha male among other traits that an alpha male may or may not have.

What makes an alpha an alpha? Is it personality or physique?

No one is going to rule the world based on their physique.

If a 4’11 man with a high-pitched voice (Gilbert Gottfried) had a Type-A personality (Alpha male personality) were to meet a guy who’s 6 foot and ripped, but with a beta personality. Ultimately, who is more of an alpha?

The former is more of an alpha male but the latter is more of a Chad. Women would ultimately be more attracted to the Chad over the alpha male who is unattractive but the alpha male would be more dominant in society unless the beta male had a significantly higher IQ or more social connections/hereditary wealth.

Most people would laugh if you chose the former.

Then most people conflate being a Chad with personality type and social status just as they conflate being black pilled and being an incel etc. There are sexy people who have sex who believe that dating success is mostly written in stone by genetics which makes them black pill.

Round 3

Sir.Lancelot

07.12.2023 03:39AM

Pro

This is actually where the semantics become a little unclear.

Problem with Con’s interpretation of ‘alpha male’ and ‘Chad’ is that it assumes there’s a distinction. But in Pop Culture and social media, the two are regularly considered synonymous.

Roles of Hierarchy

The reason why there are no alpha roles in communities is because there is always bigger fish. This is especially true because even if there are men with natural leadership tendencies, communities have shared values that appeal to a wide majority of people. With such diversity, it is impossible for a man to assume an alpha role. Now if he's an established member of the community, he may be one of the popular ones or the leaders, but displaying the characteristics normally associated with an alpha leads to them being replaced by someone else within the community.

A man can only be alpha to the followers that consent to his authority.

Back when Pro Wrestling was in its early days, the team Evolution had the following people on its team.: Triple H, Randy Orton, Ric Flair, and Dave Batista.

All of these men are considered alpha males, but only one of them actually held the title of the alpha and that was Triple H, as he was the leader of Evolution. The rest of the members did as he told them to do. Triple H's rivalry with Randy Orton is especially important because Randy looked up to and respected Triple H, but when he did something the latter didn't like, Triple H kicked him out of the gang and simultaneously, the other pack members also turned on Randy.

The Meaning of "Alpha Male"

Another problem with the Alpha and Beta typology is that it has no clear definitions, no criteria in which to categorize it objectively. To refer to someone as an alpha male in the general sense is seen as a compliment, but is not necessarily accurate. The only objective way to assess an alpha male is to determine what groups are established and who is perceived as the leader of that group.

The Alpha Paradox

Many people might call Kim Jong Un an alpha male because he's the dictator of North Korea and he controls his nation with an iron fist. Yet to majority of the outer world, he is a pariah and a blowhard. He commands fear because of his access to nuclear weaponry and the threat of using it, but nobody actually respects him or feel threatened by him personally.

FishChaser

07.12.2023 01:49PM

Con

Problem with Con’s interpretation of ‘alpha male’ and ‘Chad’ is that it assumes there’s a distinction.

Problems with defining them are created when you conflate the two as you demonstrated with Winston Churchill. When you define it as I do it is sensical and logically consistent.

But in Pop Culture and social media, the two are regularly considered synonymous.

Really appealing to the expert opinion I see. The retarded layman has no say in psychology or how attraction works. They throw around the word "Chad" haphazardly with no real definition behind it.

The reason why there are no alpha roles in communities is because there is always bigger fish.

There are no alpha males because there is always a bigger alpha male? There are no experts because there is always a bigger expert? There are no authorities because there is always a bigger authority?

A man can only be alpha to the followers that consent to his authority.

A person can have all the alpha traits with 0 followers just as you can be very beta in personality but end up leading others by circumstance.

Triple H, Randy Orton, Ric Flair, and Dave Batista.

I don't know enough about these characters to apply the typology to them but I am willing to bet that some of them are bigger/smaller alpha males or not alpha in the first place.

Another problem with the Alpha and Beta typology is that it has no clear definitions, no criteria in which to categorize it objectively.

I did a lot better of a job than random NPCs on social media.

The only objective way to assess an alpha male is to determine what groups are established and who is perceived as the leader of that group.

If that were true, you would still be admitting that alpha males exist. Are you winning the debate if there are universally alpha males/leaders in groups? Does the alpha male have to rule over all of society for there to universally be alpha males in human societies?

Barney

09.01.2023 10:40PM

#12

**************************************************
>Reported Vote: RationalMadman // Mod action: Not Possible to Remove
>Voting Policy: info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy
>Points Awarded: 3 to con.
>Reason for Decision: See Votes Tab.
>Reason for Mod Action:

The vote was borderline. By default, borderline votes are ruled to be sufficient. However, votes cast against someone during an open feud receive extra scrutiny.

It's immediately noticeable via word search that a vote based on lack of analysis of the definitions of myths vs theories, was not an argument raised within the debate.

The voter acted in such a way to suggest they did not give fair weighting to the debate content.

Any awarded point(s) must be based on the content presented inside the debate rounds. Content from the comment section, other votes, forums, your personal experience, etcetera, is ineligible for point allotments.
https://info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy#based-on-outside-content
**************************************************

Barney

07.22.2023 06:27AM

#11

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@Sting

**************************************************
>Reported Vote: Sting // Mod action: Not Removed
>Voting Policy: info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy
>Points Awarded: 0
>Reason for Decision: See Votes Tab.
>Reason for Mod Action:

Null vote, so meaningless to remove. It would otherwise be problematic had it assigned any points.
If in any strong doubt as you begin voting again, assigning no points and asking for reviews on the RFD is a good way to go.
**************************************************

RationalMadman

07.17.2023 02:04PM

#10

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@Barney

@whiteflame

@oromagi

Votebomber here again

Sir.Lancelot

07.14.2023 11:40PM

"Betas are not risk-avoidant, deltas are. You don't understand the types. Deltas are the most cowardly, betas will take huge risks for their alpha(s) and allies, willingly."

The definitions were borrowed from a source on the web.
In my argument, I pretty much explained that the definitions for these terms change quite frequently because this typology/spectrum (whatever it is) isn't even a legitimate one.

Horoscopes have more consistency.

RationalMadman

07.14.2023 09:45PM

Betas are not risk-avoidant, deltas are. You don't understand the types. Deltas are the most cowardly, betas will take huge risks for their alpha(s) and allies, willingly.

RationalMadman

07.14.2023 09:44PM

I would be willing to do a different resolution that has a fairer wording and/or BoP distribution for Con.

I also think FishChaser explained the underedeveloped thesis to you. Your definitions are extremely biased and degrading even to some types while overflattering alphas and sigmas both of whom have significant flaws.

RationalMadman

07.13.2023 05:25PM

neither debater defined myth by the end, as far as my skimread tells me

RationalMadman

07.10.2023 01:26PM

Fishchaser may actually win this if he plays Round 3 correctly.

Pro is making some queerphobic weird ass kritik where one is aan or a failure to be a man as some countercase to alpha and beta typology xD...

FishChaser

07.10.2023 11:17AM

-->

@Intelligence_06

There are female versions of all the types.

Intelligence_06

07.10.2023 09:56AM

Also, the ranking discriminates against omega males. It is one thing to categorize, the other to put it in a hierarchy. I mean, have you tried ranking races of people over others? How's that?

Intelligence_06

07.10.2023 03:54AM

Also, the so-called male hierarchy objectifies women, as how it is being described here. In all seriousness, given the amount of overpopulation everywhere and the need for everything else, "women" is not and should not be the top-most priority for all men.

Intelligence_06

07.10.2023 03:51AM

Winston was also the man who starved an entire India because he didn't want to waste money and food. "Masculine".

RationalMadman

07.19.2023 07:46PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Nowhere in the debate does Pro define what a myth is or how we separate a theory that is plausible from one that is mythical.

Pro seems to singularly have an issue with the 'alpha' male and none of the other 5 categories.

Con handles this with ease, expanding on everything including explaining what a chad vs alpha is in this absolutely irrelevant sidetrack of Johnny Bravo as am ondobidual when there are towards 8 billion people alive, we needed to fixate on a cartoon character...

By the end of the debate, it appears that Pro's case is just as absurd as Round 1. Apparently you can fail to be a man altogether, as a man, yet it is wrong to refer to you as a beta male or anything like gamma male if you do.

Sting

07.16.2023 07:48PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

neither debater makes sense in my opinion