Polygamy should be legalised if marriage is still present in the society in question.
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
After 3 votes and with 9 points ahead, the winner is...
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Polyamory does not feature in any census tick box but anecdotal evidence suggests that it is on the rise. Some are even calling for it to be recognised by law following the legalisation of gay marriage in the UK and the US. All this raises of the question of whether the future of love may be very different from our current conceptions of romance.But love has always been the same, right? A man falls for a woman, they get married, pop out a few children and stay together in a harmonious and monogamous relationship for life.Sorry romantics. This wasn’t, and still isn’t, always the picture of love. Polygamy – where more than one spouse is allowed – was the norm for many of our hunter-gatherer ancestors. Monogamy started flourishing when our ancestors began to settle down. A preference for it then appears to have arisen, among many other reasons, for economic purposes.It made it easier for fathers to divide and share valuable commodities such as land with their children. Monogamy later got hijacked by romantic love by idealistic 19th Century Victorians. “The idea of sexual exclusivity started emerging fairly late in the game,” says professor of law Hadar Aviram at UC Hastings College of the Law in San Francisco, US.Even today monogamy is the minority relationship style around the world. Cultural estimates suggest that as many as 83% of societies around the world allow polygamy.
To start with, in a 2014 review paper Conley found that polyamorous people tend to maintain more friendships as they keep a wider social network. They are also less likely to cut off contact after a break-up.Monogamous couples on the other hand, often withdraw from their friends in the first, loved-up stages of their relationship.Conley also found that individuals in poly relationships are better at communicating and that jealousy is often lower. In new research, not yet published, she even discovered that overall relationship satisfaction can be higher in poly relationships, though another earlier 2015 review found that satisfaction was similar among monogamous and “consensual non-monogamous” relationships.Nor do they seem more likely to spread sexually transmitted diseases. Indeed, an anonymous online study revealed that openly non-monogamous people are more likely to practice safe sex than cheating individuals in seemingly monogamous relationships.Taking all her findings into consideration, Conley says that married monogamous couples could learn from a poly way of life. They could use using similar ways to communicate and resolve conflict for example. “The idea is that we put too much stress on marriage and need to give it more oxygen by giving people more resources,” she says. “A lot of the strategies used in poly relationships can map onto suggestions of how we improve marriage.”
I discovered polyamory when I was 23. I met a parliament of poly performers at the Adelaide Festival who were hippyish, liberal and kind. These performers spoke about their partners, children, poly-families. There were ex-couples who were working together on shows while their other poly families toured elsewhere, married couples who had live-in partners, triumvirates where they all balanced an equal partnership. I was entranced by their openness. It seemed symbolic of our changing global world, and most peoples developing nomadic lifestyles where we travel for work and find love with others on the way.So when I went to study at theatre school in Paris (fresh out of a relationship with a 45-year-old French father of three), I decided to embrace my inner Barbarella. And the reality? Non-monogamy is rather ordinary and occasionally dull. Stereotypes of weird Eyes Wide Shut sex parties and Sartre/de Beauvoir/Olga ménages à trois aside, it’s like any normal relationship, except with more time- management, more conversations about “feelings” and more awkward encounters with acquaintances at parties who try to use you as their “Sexual Awakening Friend Bicycle”, ie that shy girl from book club will get drunk and put her hand on your leg, before leaning in to kiss you, hiccuping: “I really loved Orange Is the New Black…”There are misconceptions – a date once grabbed me for a kiss unexpectedly despite the fact I had made it clear I was in no way interested (my words were exactly: “This is not going to work. We have entirely different opinions on the EU and you have just told me I am ‘very funny for a woman’.”) When I pushed him away he was shocked. He believed because I was “sexually awakened” he could do what he liked. Luckily my experiences have meant that I am more vocal and confident, and able to stand up for myself. Yes I am open about my relationships and desires, but that doesn’t mean anyone’s allowed to touch me without my permission. Sexual awakenings do not mean the absence of consent.I must admit, when I first dipped my toes into polyamory I misunderstood, went overboard with Tinder. The experience was stressful and would involve me asking awkward questions like: “Do you think crabs think fish can fly?” while wandering around the National Gallery for the third time that month. (There is no denying that polyamory suits the self-employed schedule). I learned that when people don’t know what polyamory is, they misunderstand it as another term for “hook up”, which it’s not. So previous partners have usually been friends I trust.People often ask: “How can you truly love someone if you want to be with someone else?” and “Don’t you get jealous?” I think these statements enforce unhealthy relationship ideals. I feel it’s dangerous to think that you’re the only person that can complete someone else’s life, and be their confidant, their friend, their support network and their sexual partner. It’s too much pressure! When you take a step back, drop your ego and realise you’re one unique component of someone’s life, it’s liberating and freeing. Jealousy ebbs away and you realise that, of course, they may find another person attractive, because we’re all different pieces of a puzzle. This has made me more comfortable about myself – I am not holding myself up to standards about traditional female beauty, because I can experience it in a hundred different ways.Of course, there have been tears, heartbreaks, existential crises and moments when I felt left out. I’ve wondered if it was actually making me more free, or more insecure, with jealousy popping up at the most inconvenient times. I’ve dated people who have lied and I’ve had relationships that have ended because they didn’t trust or believe in polyamory.But, despite the downs, non-monogamy has revolutionised the way I view love. First, it made me less ashamed of my sexuality. I fancied girls way before I fancied boys. But as a teenager at house parties I remember being made to think that female sexual relationships were purely to turn men on. We’d all seen that scene in Cruel Intentions. I remember girls kissing at parties and the guys cheering. It was performative. Except, I wanted to kiss girls because I liked girls.When I started getting to know people in the poly community it was as liberating as taking off an underwired bra. I have had partners of both genders. I didn’t have to “choose”: the people I met understood that it was possible to give infinite, equal love to both sexes. My confidence soared. I wasn’t hiding. Men and women had equal place in my life. I no longer felt like a pendulum, swinging from one to another. This refreshing awakening did result in many awkward conversations with my mum and dad though, which would go something like this:Elf: “Mum and Dad, I am queer.” [Mum puts the hummus down.]Mum: “What does that mean?”Elf: “It means I have relationships with men and women”. [Mum picks the hummus up.]Mum: “Oh! Well, I’m queer. Your father’s queer, your grandmother’s queer, we’re all queer darling!”Elf: “No you don’t understand. I mean I have sex with men and women.” [Mum drops the hummus.]Mum: “Oh Elfy… No wonder you’re so tired.”Although I love sex, because of past unpleasant experiences I’m also mildly afraid of it. So when I started experimenting with non-monogamy the idea of being intimate emotionally as well as physically with more than one person was a challenge. But, the choice gave me a power and ownership over my wants which I felt I had lost and been made to feel ashamed about. I’m not saying I jumped in the sack with everyone I met. God no. I’m too busy. But through being less judgemental on myself, I relaxed, opened up to the people I trusted and started loving myself again. It forces you to be really honest, to live life with an undefended heart.It’s not been plain sailing. But to quote RuPaul: “If you can’t love yourself, how the hell can you love anyone else” – this is integral to non-monogamy. You can’t use multiple relationships to fill the void and give you the gratification that you should be able to give yourself. More love doesn’t mean better love. If you are dating multiple people in order to enhance your self-worth, you end up feeling like out-of-date hummus, feeling jealous anytime anyone chooses to spend time with anyone else, resulting in you treating your partners badly and without respect.We shouldn’t feel ashamed about being socially and sexually confident. Women have been made to feel embarrassed for their desires for too long. It’s about having the trust to speak our minds and behave the way we want to. The moment you start to crumble you need to stop and ask exactly what it is you want and if it makes you happy. Being loved and loving multiple people should make you feel stronger, not weaker.It forces you to be really honest, to live life with an undefended heartIn a time of censorship on women, increases in assault and constant critiques on how we should behave, polyamory and its manifesto of embracing our evolving feelings, sharing responsibility and communicating and working effectively with people from all around the world could help revolutionise the way we tackle privilege, inequality and control of women’s rights.I have an authority and a voice that I didn’t feel I had before. My friendships are better, my health is better. Through being polyamorous and being a part of the community I have been made aware of issues, both personal and political, that need to be uncovered and addressed.The world would be a better place if everybody was more open to polyamory. As well as that traditional idea, that it takes a village to raise a child, it would mean we’d all love more, and love better. Loving different people at the same time is like learning a different language. There are different rules every time and it’s always open for discussion. You start to realise that love is infinite. Every time you say “I love you” to someone it takes on a new meaning. It’s retranslated, and it’s wonderful.
The polygamist family featured in the reality television show “Sister Wives” lost its bid to overturn parts of Utah’s anti-bigamy law under a federal appeals court ruling issued on Monday.The case, filed after the show’s popularity prompted a criminal investigation into whether star Kody Brown was illegally married to four women, drew international attention and raised questions about whether the state could bar consenting adults from living together as a family.Polygamy is illegal in all 50 states. But Utah’s law is unique in that a person can be found guilty not just for having two legal marriage licenses, but also for cohabiting with another adult in a marriage-like relationship when already legally married to someone else.Brown is legally married to one of his wives, and “spiritually” married to the others.In 2013, U.S. District Judge Clark Waddoups struck down part of the state’s law, saying it criminalizes intimate relationships among consenting adults.But the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 10th Circuit overturned that ruling on Monday. The court said because the Browns had not actually been charged under the law - and the state said it would not prosecute multiple marriage cases unless there were allegations of fraud or criminal activity - the case was moot.“Federal courts are courts of limited jurisdiction,” the court wrote. “They lack power to decide issues - however important or fiercely contested - that are detached from a live dispute between the parties.”
What is polygamy?Polygamy is the act of marrying multiple spouses, that means having more than one husband or wife at the same time.The term is the opposite of monogamy which is the more common practice of having just one spouse at any given moment.The habit was once quite widespread across parts of the globe and is still practiced by some to this day.But in most countries, polygamy is now illegal or at the very least not officially recognised.What forms does polygamy take?There are generally assumed to be three forms of polygamy: polygyny, polyandry and group marriage.
- Polygyny is when a man has multiple wives.
- Polyandry is when a woman has multiple husbands
- Group marriage is a bit of a free for all where the family unit consists of a mish-mash of spouses from both sexes
As I noted in my last post, the ethnographic evidence suggests that human nature is adapted to an ancestral mating system that was predominately polygynous (one husband, multiple wives). Most ancestral men aspired to polygyny (even though most weren't impressive enough to attract more than one wife), and some ancestral women preferred to be the co-wife of a really impressive man than the sole wife of a second-rate one.In other words, the genetically encoded psychological machinery of human mating behavior was built by, and for, a world in which striving for polygyny was often reproductively advantageous. That's why people living in modern societies often seem inclined towards polygyny, even in cultures that have attempted to abolish it.This last point raises a key question: Why have so many cultures attempted to abolish polygyny? If our ancestors' environments were so polygynous, why is "socially imposed" monogamy—the moral and legal prohibition of polygyny—so common in modern societies? Or more accurately, why is it so common in the West? (Polygyny remains legal and common in many non-Western societies, especially sub-Saharan African and Islamic countries).Monogamy's spread in the West had something to do with the influence of Christianity, but not as much as you might expect. Mainstream Christianity has always endorsed and enforced monogamy, and as Christianity spread across Europe in the centuries following the fall of Rome, monogamy spread along with it. However, Christianity's condemnation of polygyny has never been as straightforward as anti-polygyny church leaders would have preferred, because no Biblical passages explicitly prohibit plural marriage. Indeed, leaders of breakaway Christian polygynous sects, like 16th-century German Anabaptists and 19th-century American Mormons, have always been eager to point out that several central Old Testament figures are polygynists. Abraham, for instance, had two wives simultaneously, and Solomon had 700 (plus 300 concubines).
I would love you to observe that polygamy occurs to a maximum of 4 women per man and is fundamentally about family dynasties marrying rich women off to rich men... so spare me the idea that polygamy punishes the poor, all that happens is these super-inferior extreme of ugly, poor, dumb and even emotionally toxic men end up ideally with no one at all as the women would rather be single than marry such a man for any reason other than finance, in which case they'd actually benefit more from polygamy than a society without it.
If the richest and most powerful 10% of men have, say, four wives each, the bottom 30% of men cannot marry. Young men will take desperate measures to avoid this state.
The taking of multiple wives is a feature of life in all of the 20 most unstable countries on the Fragile States Index compiled by the Fund for Peace, an NGO.
It's blatantly unrealistic and unjustifiably nonsensical that we are raised from a young age via fairytales and Conservative-styled nuclear family idealism to think that one man is both enough for a woman who is singularly enough for the man.
[will produce male offspring without roots or hopes and] young men without roots and without hope are the most dangerous group in the world.
Many European countries once had anti-adultery laws on the books, but most were repealed in the 1970s and 1980s. The last European nations to decriminalise infidelity were Austria, in 1997, and Romania, in 2006.The story is similar in Latin America, which saw a flurry of decriminalisation in the 1990s.In the US, however, adultery remains technically illegal in 21 states. In most states, including New York, cheating on your spouse is considered only a misdemeanour. But in Idaho, Massachusetts, Michigan, Oklahoma and Wisconsin, among others, it is a felony crime punishable by prison.However, attempts to enforce historic anti-fornication laws are vanishingly rare.The laws remain on the books largely due to inertia, says The New York Times. Getting rid of them would require politicians to vocally oppose them - something few are willing to do.Additionally, “many like the idea of the criminal code serving as a kind of moral guide even if certain laws are almost never applied”, says the newspaper.That certainly was not the case in South Korea, whose adultery laws still very much had teeth in the 21st century. Between 2008 and 2015, when adultery was finally decriminalised, more than 5,500 people were successfully prosecuted for cheating on their partner, CNN reports.Elsewhere in East Asia, adultery remains illegal in Taiwan and the Philippines.
Hi, I’m Kale. Today I want to talk about the differences between relationship anarchy and non-hierarchical polyamory.First, I should give a quick explanation of what hierarchical polyamory is.Hierarchical PolyamoryPolyamory (or poly for short) is the practice of having multiple, simultaneous, consensual relationships.Hierarchical poly is when there is a ranking system among sexual relationships. At the top is a person’s primary. Primaries often live together and share resources, make decisions together, spend the most amount of time together.Secondaries are what they sound like, secondary relationships. A secondary partner will get less time and resources, and often have less say in what their relationship with someone else’s primary looks like.Sometimes a primary will maintain the right to veto power, which means they can demand their primary partner end a secondary relationship.Veto power is the ultimate display of holding power over a secondary. It means that the person with veto power can end a relationship they are not even a part of.It pretty much goes against everything I believe as a relationship anarchist.Non-Hierarchical PolyamoryNon-hierarchical polyamory grew out of polyamory, as a way to practice multiple simultaneous relationships without imposing hierarchies.This means that there is no ranking system of primary and secondary. It means no person has extra influence over a person’s relationships. It means there is no veto power.It means that certain people don’t get more privilege because you live together or have been together longer. All important people get a seat at the table, they get to have a voice.While non-hierarchical poly people do not have hierarchies within their romantic and sexual relationships, they do still have them in their overall social network.Relationship AnarchyRelationship anarchists reject all hierarchies. They reject them in all their social relationships, including their romantic, sexual and platonic relationships.Part of rejecting social hierarchies means not separating partners from friends. It means not saving intimacy or romance just for people they have sex with.It also means rejecting hegemony, or predominant influence exercised over another person. It is about living free and independently.Relationship anarchy came out of a political philosophy, as a way to apply anarchistic principles to interpersonal relationships.Relationship anarchy is a way to live in accordance with these principles, such as rejection of authority and entitlement, and respect for autonomy and personal choices.It’s about valuing relationships as you choose to, not based on imposed structures.It’s not about everything always being equal, it’s about each person following their own path, and coming together based on mutual desires, not duty and obligation.Relationship anarchists are looking at their relationship dynamics in a totally different way. They are actively working against hetero and mono normativity, and societal structures.They are building from the ground up, rather than renovating.
Your DNA contains a record of your ancestors, but you aren’t a carbon copy of any one of them. The particular mix of DNA you inherit is unique to you. You receive 50% of your DNA from each of your parents, who received 50% of theirs from each of their parents, and so on.
Con's essential counter-case in my own words, if I may, is that humans are inherently greedy, Patriarchal and without moral restraint in the face of laws allowing people to do things that they otherwise would so then Con's ultimate case against the resolution is that laws should exist to help us fight our darker nature and/or assist us in stabilising things to achieve the best for all.
This debate was a bit odd to judge, as much of Pro's argumentation was incoherent and didn't connect with Con's actual arguments. Con's case was built around practicality, attacking polygamy on the basis of competition for mates and larger ancillary deleterious trends in behavior, and drew on real world evidence. He also made good arguments when it comes to how this would practically be implemented in a society built around monogamy in myriad ways. Pro largely focuses on claims that concerns of practicality don't apply, but never convincingly makes the case for this. He attempts to counter some of Con's sources, but misses the mark. For example, this is his primary rebuttal of Con's data:
'Con is referring to that adultery (which is basically cheating but specific to when it's done to someone you're married to and not just your girlfriend/boyfriend who legally you aren't married to) is legal and causes a lot of pain and other things to happen as a result. The harms that the studies Coin brings forth come with pseudo-polygamous relationships which are pseudo not because they lack marriage alone but because they are done where only one partner in a 'pairing' actually wants the polyamory and all of that, while the others is filled with envy, pain and regret.'
Yet the source cited by pro is literally titled "The Case Against Encouraging Polygamy / Why civil marriage should not encompass group unions". The study is explicitly about what Con says it isn't. It isn't about adultery, but about civil marriage extending to group unions. Pro continues to argue for several points concerning the history of polygamy and conjecture about how a polygamous society would work. In a debate in which he must defend the resolution, and in which Con has already made pretty devastating blows against claims that polygamy would produce happiness and maintain marriage as an institution (which he also showed to be beneficial through research), I feel as if I have to vote Con because those points have not been adequately rebutted. It doesn't matter how well a martial has shadowboxed against an imaginary enemy if his actual opponent has pummeled him into the ground in the meantime. I would advise RM to focus more acutely on directly countering his opponents in the future; he could really improve his debate game, and stand a much better chance when going up against veterans. If you are debating abstract morality, sometimes it is tenable to appeal to idealism, but trying to defend the a utopian ideal in a debate which is about a change in real life policy is always going to be an untenable position if your opponent argues from a point of practicality. I hope that he learns from this and grows as a debater; that's one of the great benefits of losing against an opponent like Thett3.
No points for conduct, as neither opponent was particularly out of line. Sources were both adequate (the debate largely hinged on impacts), as was S&G.
Merry Christmas everybody!
Arguments:
So, pros opening round was primarily pre-emptive. While that is perfectly legitimate, its up to pro to positively establish his case. If con makes any of the arguments for which these pre-emptive replies address, I will consider them.
Cons opening round points to primary harms - the complexity of implementation formal government recognized polygamy, and the societal harm caused by it. This was daily short, but well justified on the part of con.
Pros first rebuttal appears to mostly ignore cons argument concerning practicality.
Pro first assets that con mixed up polyamory and polygamy - I’m not entirely certainly what pro is actually talking about here, as it seemed fairly clear to me, I can’t see how pros accusations tie back into cons argument either.
Pro goes on to raise a potential benefit of polygamy, in that it allows children to be raised better - it’s very hard to specifically disentangle what pro is actually attempting to affirmatively argue.
Pro points out that cons argument concerning social issues was covered in round 1. Referring back to pros argument - this does not appear to be covered - con is arguing that the competition caused by polygamy is poisonous due to the social dynamics of competition between men, pros opening argument appears similar in talking about how it benefits rich men - but does not offer a rebuttal to the dynamics con describes.
Moving on to cons next round - con argues that burden of proof is not on them. My analysis of the resolution and the info concurs, it is not fair to push burden of proof on an opponent when the resolution strongly implies the opposite.
Con also points out that his opening point was defensive - and also largely conceded when pro agreed with most of the issues raised. What’s troublesome here is pro is effectively agreeing with the fundamental facts that con used to demonstrate polygamy is poisonous
Con also points out that there is no law preventing open marriages, and points out the killer line that if it was so popular and in demand, why is it so vanishingly rare?
Con rounds this rebuttal with a reasonable defense that points out the damage of polygamous societies due to competition - and points out that pro is basically trying to argue as if societies are purely egalitarian.
Con points out pro did not address key practicalities.
Pros rebuttal claims marriage has led to egalitarian societies, due to adultery being punishable. As far as I can see his primary defense of polygamy is to effectively concede everything con argued - but is now saying that despite monogamy being responsible for building egalitarian societies - polygamy would still work.
Despite reading through pros round 3 several times, I cant understand most of what he’s even trying to argue. I’m finding most of what he’s saying barely comprehensible, and I cannot determine the positive aspects of polygamy he’s trying to argue (other than a general its good), and I can’t see any specific case where he argue against the practicality, or against the detrimental point con raises.
Con - reiterates their position.
At the end of this, I did not feel pro offered any meaningful defense or argument as to why polygamy should be legalized: and did not offer any meaningful rebuttal of cons points at any point. While much of what pro said was interesting it was at times difficult to understand and appeared irrelevant to the contention. While I don’t necessarily think cons side was well justified in real terms, it was unrefuted by pro - so has to stand.
As a result, I must give argument points to con.
All other points: tied.
https://paa.confex.com/paa/2017/mediafile/ExtendedAbstract/Paper14090/missingwomen_paa.pdf
This is the link for his 5th piece of evidence. It will download as a pdf.
Do what you want. If your vote is justified correctly, it will stay up. Am I supposed to grovel at your feet or something? Lmfao.
What email are you referring to? You mean a comment here? That isn't included in your RFD evaluation. Read the rules.
I'm counting threatening emails sent to your opponent as conduct violation. So one side of this debate is starting 1 point down already.
wow what an interesting debate topic
Well, no one could deny that you have a very diverse taste in music
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTJqN90HACU
You are an intelligent, fabulous, stylish, exotic gem among thousands of rocks
I am superior to you. I find things out without the other spoonfeeding me the answer. Stop talking down to me or interrogating me. I know who everyone is here from Romanii to the admin. I am superior to all of you, even if you know more, because I am on a whole other level of thinking and operating. A league out of your range.
Who is spacetime from ddo?
The sad part is I realised who he was by his putrid racism against me for appearing to be a Gypsy.
Sii
Key
Masturbation-phobe Catholic?
do you know who REF was on DDO?
REF, Zeichen, Spacetime
^ 3 most recent examples of tragically terrible clique behaviour. I don't care what you say, you are not just guilty by association, you incite and encourage the shit that happens always putting fuel to the fire.
Then we have the half outliers like Wylted, Drafterman and Zarroette (if you don't know who she is on here, you're out of touch).
All three have conducted themselves abhorrently but each less consistently bad than the former three.
Bsh1 was a clique member but he also was always one who treated me with respect, as was whiteflame so I don't really consider either as proper clique members. They are like Mafia members who have good relations with even enemies of the Mafia on a day to day basis. They never indirectly were ever cruel to me.
That's about it. The others who are clique and haven't been terrible here are inactive to be that.
Who here is in “the clique”, if anything it seems like DDO social status has pretty much been wiped clean, even a lot of the ddo people who came over are now using different account names
I am proud of being that, considering the types in the clique (still evident by how they carry themselves on this site other than bsh1 which has uncliqued himself very proficiently and I'm proud of him for his progress).
Fair enough haha...I find your perspective interesting because you’re basically an outsider (no offense but you were banned for most of the time) who also knows basically everything that happened on DDO
I meant whiteflame not bluesteel (corrected now)
I am relying on a lot of your jury nullification structure in your debate vs whiteflame to structure my case vs blamonkey.
You are great at debating when you want to be, but at forums and that side of the site you are among the dirtiest of the dirty.
What do you think about me as a debater?
I think before that I’ll focus on researching polygamy for our debate haha
Okay, I want you to put as much effort as you put into that tragedy of a 'book' and dig up something that actually matters; Mikal's behaviour and display of gratitude (display by action not bullshit words) after the site saved him from poverty. I want you to catalogue his acts, time-frame them and measure the magnitude of positive vs negative acts he did post-gofundme to the community of DDO and especially to the members who had donated to him the most (other than B idk if you can still dig that part up in terms of second place etc). Please do that, then you will see that his behaviour is entirely like someone who had tricked the shit out of everyone and not someone who gave a shit anymore.
There are a lot of office jobs that pay ~$30k which in a lot of places in the country would make one lower middle class, at best. Not every low paying job is difficult or demanding, and even people who make a good wage can make poor financial choices. Mikal spending a lot of time on DDO isn’t evidence that he faked his financial crisis
Office job crybaby waaa waa I am poor, get lost with that.
I know how people who are starving, need money ACTUALLY NEED NOT WANT are when you give it to them. He would never EVER be how he was when made president of the site. Especially not with B as his vice president, that would never EVER be how much gratitude and responsibility was felt.
Don't think for a single fucking second I owe him a shred of respect, especially not if it was him who wrote the part about me, instead of you. I do not appreciate him one tiny, minutia of emotional respect. I respect B more than him for multiple reasons. At least B is brave and a genuine narcissist (genuine narcissists are better than semi narcissists because genuine narcissists actually work hard and get things done even though they over-parade what they do, I know because I am one and that's also how I am certain B is one too). Mikal is a straight up scumbag in every sense of the term. I can say that because Mikal isn't on DA so I can say whatever I want about him on here unless it's hate-speech against his race or something like that. He is everything a human should not be, even as a debater the way he got to #1 is pure filth. Bluesteel being alpha vote mod for like 90%+ of his climb is NOT A COINCIDENCE. :)
I grew up extremely middle class, so I definitely don’t have any idea what it’s like to be poor. I’ve been extremely blessed
And idk man. It just seems thin. Did he even say he was working double shifts (I don’t remember and couldn’t find the thread) What if he was out of work? And I don’t think you’ve ever worked an office job. Lots of office jobs that don’t pay that well nonetheless have tons of down time. Not everyone who is working class or poor is doing back breaking manual labor. It just seems like really thin evidence, I can completely buy that Mikal was strapped for cash and in danger of defaulting on his mortgage or missing rent and getting kicked out while also having a lot of free time
How could he afford a full-time package of 3G? Back then it was more expensive than now even though now it's 4G because over time the idea of full-time Mobile/cell Internet has increased in competitors and quality per dollar spent.
How could he have that much down-time? I frankly think you grew up rich but if you didn't, I don't think still you know what 'poor' is. I do, not because I was particularly lower class but because my parents both were (my dad worked his ass off to ensure his kid(s) grew up middle class). I don't think you know what little 'spare time' someone working that job has. The only thing you can think about or do in a break is to stuff your face with some cheap food and rest your aching muscles, THIS I know because I worked as a dishwasher for a restaurant among other jobs (first official job was in a charity book store but that sounds much less strenuous than it actually was and was also only a summer job duration, I was the guy who lifted things and moves chunks of books from the front to the back etc and am not built the strongest). Anyways, I know what that is like, there's no way to debate well and long-term. It would actually be a waste of money to spend on a mobile/cell phone that wasn't basic as well as on Internet package on top of that. I have known what that life is even as I was because my parents raised me poorer than we really were in the sense of how much they bought me as presents etc. They raised me to value money and to truly know that even though money is that valuable, family matters more (my dad didn't raise me on the latter parts, that was my mother's doing and also my dad's extended family but he himself was and is quite materialistic but I understand why, considering how he grew up and what he lacked).
I don’t remember the specifics of the story but you could definitely use DDO that much while working a full time job, especially if that job had a lot of down time. It just seems like really thin evidence and I don’t like how you assert it as fact. You’re always talking about how people on ddo mistreated you, but aren’t you mistreating Mikal by saying he’s a scammer who should be in jail with no evidence?
Yes, I don't care much. I love that B got conned and I hate the rest of it but don't give much of a shit. I've donated time and effort, not just money to a guy in Kenya that my family and I helped get off drugs. I know what is real charity, fuck off with this sob story of a psychopathic fraud.
I do strongly believe bluesteel was conned, not an accomplice. I wouldn't be surprised if he is that rich but I would then wonder why he didn't donate much and why he asked others. Not that I care.
As someone who now has the time on his hands to spend on a site like this to achieve the rate and win amount he got, I know first hand; there is no way in hell to debate that proficiently, vote rally that strategically and debate against that many people at once during his stampedes... If you're struggling for cash IRL and have to work double shifts just to feed yourself the next two days.
But Mikal not telling everyone his entire life story and Imabench being mean to you months later isn’t proof that the entire thing was a sham. And I’m not going to say what he does but it’s extremely unlikely that bluesteel would need to scam DDO out of 600 bucks or so. He probably makes that in a few days
So about the debate, are you cool with me attacking your case in R1? Or we can make the first round for acceptance only as three rounds of debate is usually enough. Just let me know
Cannot comment on who the sociopathic B is
B is obviously Imabench
B is not bluesteel.
The proof is all circumstancial, including holes in his story of how he ended up in poverty. I spotted it immediately but I also know that holes in a story are common for most humans as they aren't as smart as me with remembering even their own life.
Then I saw what he did to B(I call him B as I can't criticise things about a DA user). B clearly was not in on it for many, many reasons. The idea he'd fake that quantity of donation as well as the aftermath... Not to mention how close the timing of his rage filled abuse of me on FB was to the aftermath of him realising Mikal had humiliated his run for DDO presidency, made not just him (B) look like a joke but spat in the face of someone who donated that much money to him and beat B at his own game of conning and playing people... I felt genuine pity for B in hindsight. It really must have felt like mental torture to him to realise he'd given that much money to someone who deserved the poverty they feigned because of what a disloyal cunt they were to the person and community that saved them from said poverty... There is also more clues but I can't be fucked to type them out.
Hey RM, what structure do you prefer for this debate? I was planning on using my first round to make my case and then attack yours, but I want to make sure you’re okay with it
O fck me, 30k characters per argument lol. This is gonna be brutal
Was the Mikal thing actually a fraud btw? What makes you so sure? Bc I never saw any evidence of that
I don't care. It is like me asking REF why he thinks I'm a mod-cock-guzzling sycophant. Insults don't need good reason to be harsh.
Unlike him, I know why I am insulting your story and why I have blocked you.
I am not interested in the reason why you wrote it. I am not interested in the reason why Bossy wrote it. I am even less interested in the reason why the only attempted and successful Fraud of DDO history who belongs in prison, possibly alongside bluesteel, who went by the name Mikal, wrote it.
Interesting, I had mostly forgotten about that incident until you brought it up. Debatability and I were really close at that time so our fake fight had to be really vicious for people to believe it. Most people seemed to find it funny or just stupid after it was revealed to be fake
Hey now, you can’t fairly review it if you haven’t read the entire book, especially ddo Burger King which is legendary
Esocialbookworm and that guy Dennybug really were affected by it.
I don't think it PTSD affected many people's trust in you or her other than those two but everyone basically learned to never trust you lowkey whereas to those two I think it brutally affected their ability to like you, trust you and enjoy trust in any member they weren't super tight with.
Anyway, I can't truly know how it affected them, I found it pathetic. I don't care about the other parts. The Wylted part was a complete tryhard humour shambles that I think neither Max nor Wylted will remotely find funny nor relevant to either of their nature. Then again both of them are [things I can't say due to CoC] so maybe they'll enjoy it.
Other than the part with you in it, what do you think was the worst part?
And that’s interesting (re: debatability), no one ever mentioned to me that it bothered them. I think if I lost friends on DDO it was for being really obnoxious about my support of Trump more than anything
It was utter shit. Accuracy 1/10
Quality 0/10
You think you're a lot funnier than you actually are. I never said it and frankly RM saying it will never be taken as relevant opinion but you never were remotely funny. You lost more friends than you impressed by the deception involved with that week long fake beef with debatability. She lost more friends than you. People don't like being lied to, no matter how impressive the act.
You really don't realise how low some of us think of you. I'm the only one with the guts to say it to your face.
Actually you’re right, I 100% should have given Mikal part of the credit for ddo high school since we both wrote parts of it, I simply forgot
Did you read the entire “book”? I’m honestly interested in your full opinion. I would ask you to PM me but you’ve blocked me so I can’t
Also when do you think your arguments will be ready?
I couldn't give less of a shit what your intent was with that story nor about how you conduct yourself in this debate. Frankly I hope you do abuse me and stop pretending to be the great guy you act like on pm and to yourself in the mirror. You may find it a good laugh and fun but you took full credit for what was in that story whether or not Mikal gave you the content. Mikal isn't even mentioned as an assistant author or anything. I don't like one fucking bit of the oh-so-tiny half page about me and I don't like how you wrote about some other users either.
I have no intention of abusing you or this debate, this is a good topic and I’m looking forward to it
Maybe you should bypass CoC some more by writing vile abuse about someone on a story you link to on-site but since the story is off-site you get away with it again.
This time try and make it factually accurate though.
Thanks for making the debate, I’ve been thinking about this topic a lot and am excited
Bump