Instigator / Pro

Statichead

1509

rating

debates

37.5%

won

Topic

#3888

Kids 12+ who can prove they know about politics should be able to vote

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Better arguments

Better sources

Better legibility

Better conduct

After 2 votes and with 7 points ahead, the winner is...

RationalMadman

Tags

Politics

Parameters

Publication date: 11.14.2022 11:49PM
Last updated date: 12.02.2022 07:44PM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 2
Time for argument: Two days
Max argument characters: 3,500
Voting period: Two weeks
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

RationalMadman

1702

rating

574

debates

67.86%

won

Description

pretty simple if you ask me, just read the title

Round 1

Statichead

11.15.2022 12:57AM

Pro

Having an immigrant mother, she never really understood American politics. Usually I'd explain the options, and ask her which one. She always went with my opinion. So, yes, I basically voted when I was a teenager (with my mothers supervision, or my mother voting with my supervision, you could say).

I believe that I was (and am) very knowledgeable when it comes to American politics, more than most adults around me, at least. I've listed a solution to my opinion: A test of some sort. kind of like the Civics Test, but with much more critical thinking and common sense.

There are many counter-arguments I anticipate, my response in bold text:

Yes, the judgement of minors is very poor. Thats what the test is for.
This would increase liberal voting numbers. Good.
the amount of children that would be voting would be so minuscule that there would be no need for legislation making this a reality. honestly, I dont know what to say about this.

I also think that "simulations" in schools for middle-high schoolers about voting would be a great addition for learning.

I know its short, but I think It is a good start. I anticipate Con's response.

RationalMadman

11.16.2022 11:31PM

Con

Beat to play on Loop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVI3QNKzTdI

Let me get this straight, this product of immigration flexes how their mother never studied for the votes she cast in a nation,

That's a snitch handin' out an ICE 'n' U-S-C-I-S invitation,

Fraudulent vote-by-proxy, like mother like child; deceptive imitation,

Let's explore the real meat to Pro's case, it deserves evisceration,

I'm dismember it with hot rebuttals; cause incineration...

Pro thinks they were very knowledgable as a teen and this enables them the right to vote,

That's like a Christian denyin' science with a Bible quote,

See, Pro as a teen could consider suicide and we'd hold the school and parents responsible even if the teens buy the rope,

The ability to judge the media well is all good until your parents pressure you to think as they think and hope as they hope.

Adolescence and young adulthood are critical periods to establish health behaviour,

If parents tell you Jesus saved us, who'd you reckon the offspring says is the saviour?

Teenage Brains Are Like Soft, Impressionable Play-Doh,

However, I concede that the problem's two-fold since a rebellious hot-head teen's gonna see their parents' beliefs and jump like hell the other way, yo!

The point is, I don't blame the young for lack information, I blame parents for their raising methods lacking sound persuasion,

I think adolescent mental health's a big issues with a lot of stigmatisation and lack of patience,

They sometimes seem driven to seek experiences that produce strong feelings and sensations,

It's not about IQ, it's about hormone fluctuation,

Symptoms of a teen with hormones racing are seeking a bad crowd, major concern with appearance dating and difficulty concentrating,

sex hormones including estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone can influence the development and maturation,

We're talking about the very most unstable people in every single nation,

Plus, which nation is it that we are seeking to alter legislation?

There are barely any where custody and consent of those under 16 is considered valid independent of an adult's 'okaying',

The barrier until 18's more about maturity than possessing data for political calculations,

You can know the harms of drugs and unprotected underage sex,

And go 'screw it L-M-A-O, I'm too impatient for waitin',

There's obviously one or two anomalies but the barrier isn't a test or having stored information,

Pro's mother blindly followed Pro's idea of what to vote on but if 12+ kids and teens can vote the opposite'll be commonplace then,

And don't forget those who would irrationally rebel and refuse good advice from parents and vote the other way solely out of hormones raging.

Round 2

Statichead

11.18.2022 02:03AM

Pro

forfeit 😳

RationalMadman

11.18.2022 05:18PM

Con

I accept

Public-Choice

12.02.2022 07:44PM

To unpack what I said a little.

I know a very intelligent political scholar who has been published in political journals and been taught at some of the best universities for political theory.

Until 6 years ago or so, his argument was "well this scholar says something so I believe it is true." No joke. This highly educated, intelligent thinker whom I've debated on issues always went back to some authority he trusted above the actual words straight from the mouths of the original people we were talking about.

He one day admitted his fallacy, but he still commits to it, just significantly less so.

The sad part is, his story is the norm, not the exception. Most people I debate will always, ALWAYS stick with an authority, even when I literally pull out the exact quotes from primary sources, or I show them photographs or videos of events, that are totally contradictory to their authority figures, they call me crazy or a conspiracy theorist. They prefer to believe the lie from the authority rather than the actual annals of the events. Age doesn't matter.

Being an adult does not inherently make one a better voter. Being a more logical thinker does.

Public-Choice

12.02.2022 07:36PM

-->

@RationalMadman

@Statichead

The problem with RM's argument is that the gross majority of teenage beliefs are formed by parents or schoolteachers and carry far into adulthood for the gross majority of the American population.

Most people believe something because they heard a teacher or an authority say it, and many times they trust that authority figure because, from birth, they were conditioned (or, more likely, brainwashed) into trusting that person despite any real action that authority figure took to prove they deserve that trust.

Teenagers are simply adults who haven't been fully brainwashed yet. And, no, I am not saying this is how people are naturally wired. Nor am I saying this is how people are meant to be. I am simply postulating what is. Most people are quite happy to be brainwashed and do not want to think for themselves. They want someone else to do the thinking for them. Case-in-point, Statichead's story of how she basically told her mother how to vote. Her mother was an adult who took very little interest in doing her own research in the realm of politics and instead relied on someone else to explain it all to her.

Being an adult doesn't magically make someone a better voter. A 12-year-old can vote better than a 50-year-old. It depends on the decision process, not the age.

Lemming

11.19.2022 01:12AM

I suppose if long lived intelligences existed,
That saw continual improvement in individuals understanding and control, more they aged,
Such as elves or robots, maybe,

They might have higher age bar,
To entering certain votes, positions.

Though,
If one's situation is effected, one generally wants a say.

I suppose if children were stronger, they'd have a say,
But strength is not only in body and mind, but is societal structure and norms,
A human child waits X years, they're then on the other side, 'have their right to vote, and what.

Statichead

11.18.2022 02:05AM

vote con I forfeit O_O

Statichead

11.18.2022 02:05AM

-->

@K_Michael

I agree everybody should need a literacy or knowledge test of some sort

just make sure its not like those stupid racist ones from the jim crow days

K_Michael

11.18.2022 12:07AM

-->

@Statichead

What makes 12 a better benchmark age than 18? For that matter, why not stipulate that anyone, regardless of age, must demonstrate a basic literacy and understanding of current politics in order to vote? I expect most 18-year-olds don't know that much either.

The voting age has long been associated with the age of majority, when you become a full person in the eyes of the law. Similarly to children, in the past women or people of color could not vote, own property, operate businesses. One might look at this and say that equal suffrage for children is the last frontier in true legal equality, but I would say that this one is distinctly more justified than the other two.

Best.Korea

11.15.2022 02:53PM

Well, they cant possibly be dumber than average american.

So there is no harm.

Barney

11.19.2022 03:10AM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Concession.

Lemming

11.19.2022 01:09AM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Concession by Pro,
Does that mean I give 'all points to Con, just arguments, or arguments then leave everything neutral?
Well Con's getting most points in end anyway.

I'd say Pro divided his round 1 between suggesting that the soundness of teenagers voting be 'tested,
Rather than Pro arguing 'just for the right to vote.

Pro 'could have doubled down on his, right to vote by a test,
Arguing that self control, knowledge could have been tested in teens and adults,
While pointing out that many adults lack self control, knowledge, are easily lead.

Pro could have used Con's sources to further his own argument, such as one that read,
"In one new study, teens and adults played a game in which points were rewarded for correctly answering questions while researchers monitored their subjects’ brain activity. When lots of points were at stake, teens spent more time contemplating their answers than the adults did, and brain scans revealed more activity in regions involved with decision making for the teens. In other words, teens’ sensitivity to rewards can lead to better decisions."
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/teenage-brains-are-like-soft-impressionable-play-doh-78650963/

Con includes many sources with his arguments, to back his claims, points.
Also nice music, but no points for the music,

Con makes the point of how guardians are responsible for their charges actions,
Which Pro might have argued against, as minors can separate from their guardians at an age younger than 18,
That minors go to juvie, rather than their guardians, and other arguments,
Point is that Con's point was still arguable for Pro.

Con has a strong argument in the susceptibility to pressure and hormones in teens, which 'is backed by data, and well argued by Con, but I think Pro could have argued against it,
By making examples of adults susceptibility, and argued for the right of individuals to determine their own actions, if they are shown able.

Spelling and grammar equal, conduct equal.