Instigator / Pro
14
1581
rating
38
debates
64.47%
won
Topic
#3867
GIF should be pronounced GIF, not JIF.
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
6
3
Better sources
4
4
Better legibility
2
2
Better conduct
2
2
After 2 votes and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...
K_Michael
Tags
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- One month
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
11
1702
rating
574
debates
67.86%
won
Description
GIF: short for Graphics Interchange Format, a file format released in 1987 by Steve Wilhite.
should: modal verb (DUTY);
used to say or ask what is the correct or best thing to do:
Round 1
Pro
#1
To be absolutely clear, Pro (me) is arguing for the hard g sound at the beginning of GIF, whereas Con is arguing for the soft g sound. These are denoted as "g" and "ʤ" respectively by the IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) but for simplicity's sake I will be using "j" for the latter as it is always (as far as I can find) a "ʤ" sound in the English language. [1]
Arguments
1. Consistency With Acronym's Components
In the acronym, the "G" stands for "Graphics" which uses the "g" sound. [2]
By default, it would make more sense for the "G" in the acronym to reflect this than to arbitrarily change it to the "j" sound. Someone unfamiliar with the word "graphics" might assume if they heard GIF with a "j" sound that it was similarly pronounced "jraphics" or "ʤɹæfɪks" in IPA notation.
2. Historical Use Of The Letter "G"
What we call the letter "G" today was introduced as a variant of "C" which made both the "g" and "k" noises in Latin at the time. Since then, it has confusingly been used as both the "g" and "j" sound, until J was adopted into use in the 1600s.
3. Distinction From The Brand Jif
Jif is a popular brand of peanut butter that is pronounced with the soft g noise "j" which is universal to the letter J in English. It was introduced in 1956 and predates the word GIF by 31 years. While there exist several homonyms in the English language (most notably two, to, and too), to avoid confusion, it is reasonable to substitute a different pronunciation when possible. For instance the present and future tense of "read" are different in pronunciation (homophones with reed and red, respectively) in order to more easily identify the tense. (One could go into how the past tense should be standardized as readed, but I'm not here to fight the entire English language today)
In Conclusion
It is straightforwardly clear to me that the most logical and least confusing pronunciation would be the hard g "g" sound.
Sources:
Con
#2
BoP disagreement
Con is arguing for the soft g sound.
- Pro, Round(R) 1
This is false, Con has another angle; that they are both equally valid and will be pushing both at once.
Neither the short nor long description of this debate restrict Con to back 'J' pronounciation as more valid to GIF rather than equally valid.
==
Consistency With Acronym's Components
- Pro, R1
I counter this with consistency with letter annunciation consistency.
Pro's consistency-value is referring only to what you do if you extend out the acronym into its components and that is less relevant than what the raw letters in their capital forms are supposed to be pronounced as, individually.
You do not split PC into 'puh'and 'kuh' but into 'pee and 'see' because the raw pronounciation of Polict Constable, Personal Computer and Political Correctness is irrelevant when compared with the 'see' sound of C when saying 'that's so PC'.
In 'WTH' and 'WTF' we would never say the W or F as they are pronounced in their words, instead we'd default to the pronunciation when pronouncing the letter itself:
'double-you', 'tee', 'aitch/aytch', 'eff'.
Why would it be that when we say GIF that we default away from 'jee'-'eye'-'eff' and instead say the G the way that it is said in its word of 'graphics'? That is simply Pro implying there is a rule we go by which we blatantly do not.
Neither a hard G nor a softer J-sounding g are going to be the 'jee' of the norm in GIF, however 'J' pronunciatiation is closest to 'jee' without a doubt and that's how we say letter G.
==
Historical Use Of The Letter "G"What we call the letter "G" today was introduced as a variant of "C" which made both the "g" and "k" noises in Latin at the time. Since then, it has confusingly been used as both the "g" and "j" sound, until J was adopted into use in the 1600s.
As we know the letter C evolved to have 'see' and thus 'sss' variation, it is not a pure 'kk' sound anymore. Language evolves, Pro telling us this is not relevant as the acronym of GIF only evolved in 1987:
I think perhaps more interesting than the history of the letter G would be the shorter and more relevant history of the acronym GIF.
The creator of GIF always has, initially jokingly as he didn't seem to mind and later seriously, pushed forth the pronunciation JIF (evidence inside the link I gave above and also in many other places such as here:
It's pronounced JIF, not GIF.
- Steve Wilhite, the creator of GIF
You can find the history swaying this way and that way but the creator at the start had this joking line:
Steve Wilhite releases the Graphics Interchange Format, or GIF, while working for Compuserve. He called it a GIF with a soft g. “Choosy developers,“ he reportedly said, “choose JIF.” This was of course a play on the peanut butter brand Jif’s line “choosy mothers choose Jif.”
Which leads me into countering Pro's Point 3.
==
Distinction From The Brand Jif
This is irrelevant. The creator of GIF isn't generating an income either way people pronounce GIF. This means that the peanut butter company could never sue him and that anyone is entitled to say it how they like. If anything, saying it as JIF (soft g) would increase people's awareness of the peanut butter company wherever it's sold, being a nice jolt of memory for them.
I do, however, know a word that is not only confusing because it sounds similar but because it is put in sentences extremely similarly to GIF; that word is 'gift'.
Where Pro's point-3 falls apart completely is that Pro has said this is the basis of it:
While there exist several homonyms in the English language (most notably two, to, and too), to avoid confusion, it is reasonable to substitute a different pronunciation when possible.
I wish to turn this completely against Pro and support the basis of Pro's point 3 because the word 'gift' is not only sounding similar to GIF with hard G but is actually very problematic semantically.
'I sent your girlfriend a GIF yesterday' and 'I sent your girlfriend a gift yesterday' would be said nearly identically if spoken at normal or definitely fast talking speed in almost all accents that apply to the English language because the 't' in gift is said softly and rapidly in the first place.
That doesn't seem too bad necessarily though it could start rivalries but imagine it the other way around. 'hey boyfriend, your friend sent me a hilarious GIF :D' vs 'hey boyfriend, your friend sent me this hilarious gift :D'
The point is that a GIF generally lacks intimacy unless it's a porn or explicit-captioned GIF. Sending a gift to someone has a layer of either intimacy or even borderline bribery to it depending on context. We need to realise that being 'sent a GIF' and 'sent a gift' are always going to be said in sentences in the same way whereas referring to peanut butter is usually firstly not done by brand.
People will go 'that's peanut butter, oh you want to know the brand? It's Jif' they won't go 'that's some Jif. Oh, don't you know? That's peanut butter'. Lexically, there's much more conflict having GIF sounding near-identical to gift because of how similarly they are used in sentences.
==
I would like a point of my own; they are equally valid if we get technical
It is true that many dictionaries have hard G 'gif' as the default. This is because most people have ended up saying it with hard G but they are wrong. The reason they are wrong is firstly the confusion with 'gift' and because both the letter G being said as 'jee' and the creator of GIFs having always intended it to be said the same as Jif make it officially soft-g oriented.
Many dictionaries will always concede a secondary pronunciation by at least listing it:
US
/ɡɪf/ /dʒɪf/
^ have to go to the second definition section to find it conceding/admitting 'djif' works.
/ɡɪf/, /dʒɪf/
ˈgif , ˈjif
For Pro to win, GIF has to completely win as the correct one. I have countered every angle which Pro pushed and am the only side able to pick the middleground 'they both work' option.
Round 2
Pro
#3
Con has another angle; that they are both equally valid and will be pushing both at once.Neither the short nor long description of this debate restrict Con to back 'J' pronounciation as more valid to GIF rather than equally valid.
That's a fair claim, though I was hoping to debate someone who actively supports JIF more than GIF.
Rebuttals
consistency with letter annunciation consistency.
The examples used here, "PC" and "WTF" are not acronyms like GIF is, but initialisms. While an acronym is pronounced as a word, (NASA, SCOTUS, etc) an intialism is read as each letter in sequence (FBI, BRB, etc.) Clearly different rules do apply to acronyms.
Steve Wilhite
The creator of the GIF does indeed prefer the pronunciation JIF, but does an author's intent matter more than popular usage? It's easy to say no. As you said regarding the letter C, pronunciation evolves over time. We may not know who first started using C for the "k" sound, but his intent and preference didn't stop us from changing the pronunciation to also cover the "s" sound. If GIF is the more popular usage, then the author's intent is meaningless.
Distinction From The Brand Jif
the peanut butter company could never sue him
I wasn't arguing a case for legal distinction, but to avoid confusion. While normal conversation may allow for context to differentiate the two, other mediums, such as speech to text software, have no ability to tell them apart, seeing as they're pronounced exactly the same "jif"
gift' is not only sounding similar to GIF
Although this is anecdotal, I have never had trouble differentiating the two. If one was slurring their speech then enunciation could be a problem here, but again, this would only happen in a spoken conversation, where clarification could easily be reached. In text, I expect the confusion to drop, as completely tacking on or forgetting a letter is pretty hard to do.
they are equally valid if we get technical
"most people have ended up saying it with hard G but they are wrong."
This directly contradicts your earlier argument that the pronunciation of letters can evolve over time from the original usage. Popular use is the final arbiter of what is "correct." The entire dictionary is founded on this principle. "Awesome" and "Awful" used to have almost identical meaning, but they have undergone semantic drift, and now have very different meanings from each other.
R2 Arguments
Popular use
In 2019 Cambridge University released an article about the controversy on the pronunciation of GIF. In it they cite a poll finding that 57% of people use the hard G, while only 31% use the soft G "j". Nearly twice as many people use the hard G. They also mention how anomalous such a large split is, when it comes to language. There is a concept called linguistic prescriptivism that refers to how, excepting for regional differences (such as British vs American English), a single "correct" usage for a word will develop. This usage can be influenced by anything from public speakers to dictionaries, but is ultimately decided by the population using the term. The most likely reason given for such a large split is that Wilhite's public arguments for JIF has "given an impetus" to a second argument. The article also mentions that before Wilhite's speech at the 2013 Emmy's Awards, there was little recorded controversy over the term.
Steve Wilhite
Even if you lend a certain credence to the creator's preference, Wilhite died earlier this year. As the figurehead for the JIF movement fades into obscurity, linguistic drift will make the more popular pronunciation even more pronounced, no pun intended.
For Pro to win, GIF has to completely win as the correct one.
GIF is already the more popular usage. While I predict this will solidify to supremacy within the next few decades, if not years, there will likely always be a few obstinate people that cling to JIF. So how does one judge "correctness"? In the description I defined "should"
should: modal verb (DUTY);used to say or ask what is the correct or best thing to do:
The best thing to do is to reduce confusion and argument in favor of the more readily accepted pronunciation: GIF with a hard G.
Con
#4
The abusive twisting of 'should' that voters should side with Con against Pro on.
Please play this rap song before and/or after reading: https://youtu.be/6MoejnwYYsk
https://open.spotify.com/track/1KwlwWpqt257op9eGLgRD7?si=y8XbP2_uRJKjPxFvKdB_Hg&utm_source=copy-link
Let me be very clear here. There are dirty tactics and then there are shit-smearing-all-over-your-soul tactics.
K_Michael I want you to drop the sword immediately. Give up, drop this, say sorry and save some face. You just conceded EVERY contention you raised Round 1 and built your case upon and used goalpost movement in every single respect to seem you won anyway.
I will beat your Round 2 arguments to the floor, I will kick them and crack their spinal cords worse than I did to your Round 1 and expect a formal admittance of your ruthlessness to require mine.
This debate was never ever in any way to be able to be won as an absolute de facto truism that the more popular option is the one that should be used.
The definition in the description does not even seem abusive and K_Michael has no known history of being this sleazy. I spent the full 3 days thinking of this Round, shocked and appalled at what I saw.
There was a time when severely most believed the world was flat and now severely most believe it is Round. There was a time when most would hate and/or pity homosexuals and now many cultures are shifting to at the very least hate them less and at most totally integrating and embracing them. K_Michael would know.
There were times when linguistic slurs we would be furious if we hear now were the go-to terms for blacks, gays, transgenders and many others.
Pro wants to sit there and win this because confusion seems reduced when all sheep the bandwagon. Do not for one second allow that.
If most support the incorrect and suboptimal option, most SHOULD BE CORRECTED!
==
Rest of the case... What rest of it? He got bodied Round 1 and in a jiffy I shall rest my cass.
Pro's first contention was that Acronyms owe pronunciation to be loyal and consistent to extended word articulation.
So I bring WTF and PC and he says no, pick NASA and stuff like PIN and SCUBA.
Okay. Let us do that. :)
The A's in NASA are both pronounced unlike the A in the extended words.
The I in PIN is for identity, yet is said as the 'i' in GIF... oops.
The U and A in SCUBA are said unlike their words.
These are vowels, Pro will try to grasp at and goalpost-move.
So let us nit even generalise, let us see something, is GIF a consonant exception, yes or no and why? Well, here comes the entirely conceded gift point where gift vs GIF with hard G is a much greater struggle to take in the ear and placement in a sentence, causing it to be semantically too not just audibly and lexically.
Any website that is official and teaches acronyms specifies that GIF is such a definite exception with it said 'JIF-' or it concedes both are viable. GIPHY embracing THE HARD g is irrelevant, and Pro didnt even bring it up. 'Giphy' was blatantly based on the word jiffy, as in ring gifs to you in a jiffy... so what are they fronting for?
GI
- Gi - (s) Gibi
- GI - (i) Galvanised Iron - Gastro-Intestinal - General Issue - (s) Gibraltar (ISO 3166 digram; FIPS 10-4 territory code) - (i) Government Issue
- GIB - (s) Gibraltar (ISO 3166 trigram)
- GIF - (a) Graphics Interchange Format (pronounced "jif")
- GIG - (a) Global Information Grid
- GIGO - (a) Garbage In Garbage Out (computing)
- GIMP - (a) GNU Image Manipulation Program
- GIN - (s) Guinea (ISO 3166 trigram) - (a) Guidelines International Network
- GINO - (a) Godzilla In Name Only
- GIP - (s) Gibraltar pound (ISO 4217 currency code)
- GIS - (i) Geographic Information System - (i) Google Image Search
- GISS - (a/i) General Impression of Size and Shape - Goddard Institute for Space Studies
In Round 1 I already showed Time magazine (highly refgrded not some simple simon typeagazine) and CNN officially reporting that the creator i tended it to be said Jif.
Pro says 'so what'. I tell you so what.
I agree Pro, let us reduce confusion. The offficial way it was always intended to be said so as to differentiate itfrom a gift when it is a GIF was... soft g Jif.
And the confused majority need guidance from us. Do not let them embrace their delusion. Both are valid but which should be the valid one? The one the original creator and practicality of gift vs GIF demand.
Round 3
Pro
#5
There was a time when severely most believed the world was flat and now severely most believe it is Round. There was a time when most would hate and/or pity homosexuals and now many cultures are shifting to at the very least hate them less and at most totally integrating and embracing them. K_Michael would know.There were times when linguistic slurs we would be furious if we hear now were the go-to terms for blacks, gays, transgenders and many others.Pro wants to sit there and win this because confusion seems reduced when all sheep the bandwagon. Do not for one second allow that.
There is a huge difference between how morals, science, and politics are determined and how language is. The definition, usage, and pronunciation of a word are inherently subject to popular usage (again, see semantic drift). In contrast, science is explicitly based upon empirical observations, and morality is based upon philosophical reasoning.
There is no shortage of examples as to how popular usage is the final arbiter of correctness in language. I have given a few examples already, such as the recent split between "awesome" and "awful." Another example is how slang can supersede or add to the traditional definition of a word, such as "cool", "salty", or "dope." This is also how new words are entered into the dictionary, based upon increasing popularity.
Pro's first contention was that Acronyms owe pronunciation to be loyal and consistent to extended word articulation.So I bring WTF and PC and he says no, pick NASA and stuff like PIN and SCUBA.
I merely made a distinction between initialisms and acronyms, which do inherently have different pronunciation rules. Your new acronym examples, PIN and SCUBA, are indeed inconsistent to the initial letter sound of each component word. However, you will also commonly see such words enter usage as its own word separate from the acronym (scuba, laser, and radar all have entries in the dictionary separate from the original acronyms). Some consider GIF to enter this field as well.
The A's in NASA are both pronounced unlike the A in the extended words.The I in PIN is for identity, yet is said as the 'i' in GIF... oops.The U and A in SCUBA are said unlike their words.These are vowels, Pro will try to grasp at and goalpost-move.
While I do not contend that these are inconsistent, it is notable that most inconsistencies are vowels.
Well, here comes the entirely conceded gift point where gift vs GIF with hard G is a much greater struggle to take in the ear and placement in a sentence, causing it to be semantically too not just audibly and lexically.
I addressed the point of "gift" vs. "GIF". Don't ignore my arguments.
GIPHY embracing THE HARD g is irrelevant, and Pro didnt even bring it up. 'Giphy' was blatantly based on the word jiffy, as in ring gifs to you in a jiffy... so what are they fronting for?
It's a company name, they can pronounce it either way. And it's clearly not irrelevant, it's a reflection of the popularity of the hard g for GIF.
Giphy' was blatantly based on the word jiffy
Has a company founder announced this? If not, you are only postulating.
In Round 1 I already showed Time magazine (highly refgrded not some simple simon typeagazine) and CNN officially reporting that the creator i tended it to be said Jif.Pro says 'so what'. I tell you so what.
I never disagreed that the creator intended the soft g. You have yet to show an argument that states why this one man's preference outweighs the clear popularity of the hard g.
The Nail in the Coffin
I agree Pro, let us reduce confusion. The offficial way it was always intended to be said so as to differentiate itfrom a gift when it is a GIF was... soft g Jif.
Now the hypocrisy is revealed. In R1 you stated
they are both equally valid and will be pushing both at once.
Con is unable to maintain a consistent stance on whether the usage of only the soft j or if both are acceptable. His original stance, that both are acceptable, would clearly be more confusing than if only one pronunciation was used. He has changed stances to try and make his position more sensible.
Con
#6
In this debate, Pro has had all three Round 1 points completely turned against him.
Then, Pro decides that the more popular one is automatically the one we should use even though the popular one was the unjustified deviation and Jif was the original pronunciation that the creator and many official sources encouraged and used.
Pro said Jif peanut butter vs Jif justifies using hard 'g'Gif but I pointed out that the word 'gift' has far mire overlap and grounds for co fusion there considering how it is used in a sentence and how commonplace a word it is.
I feel Pro has tried to goalpost move the BoP of the debate to be that the one more use is via truism the one we should use. That is wrong and abusive, please vote accordingly.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Some of Pro's arguments end up going nowhere, including the consistency with the acronym's components (Con pointed out that there are a wide variety of acronyms with similar inconsistencies, and it's unclear that this causes any problems) and confusion with the brand Jif (Pro basically drops this after R1, since Con pointed out that their context in sentences makes them distinct). For Con's side, I'd say the same about how Wilhite used it. It's not really relevant to whether it should be used a certain way, nor is the relatively weak instance of confusion that may result from slurring the word "gift" something I would consider strongly. Maybe sentence structure could cause problems here, but as Pro points out, it's simple enough to clarify. Pro made an effective argument for why text to speech is the greater consideration, regardless.
It's in the rest of the points that things get more interesting, though both sides run into internal inconsistencies.
Pro starts off by arguing historical usage of the letter "g," but then argues that language is dictated by popular usage. One of those points is paramount, and Pro ends up emphasizing the latter, but having suggested the former, it's difficult to give him this point wholesale, even with what I would consider a relatively weak response from Con (saying that he's shifting the goalposts doesn't really tell me anything - Pro can argue what should occur by any means he wishes so long as he does so before the final round, and I wouldn't consider it a truism to argue that popularity should be the paramount metric).
Con doesn't do himself any favors, either, since he dances from the position that all he has to prove is that they're equally good to the position that "ʤif" is the better pronunciation. These positions aren't in direct contradiction, but Con does end up sacrificing the former for the latter, since the former drops out of the debate almost entirely after the first round. That's probably for the best, since the former doesn't provide much in the way of offense and would have required that Con beat back every argument Pro made to win. Still, it means much of Con's opening round, which focused on defeating Pro's points and presenting his sole argument that they should be treated as equally valid because dictionaries say so, end up rather weak because Con just doesn't seem to care about them by the end. Giving yourself two independent avenues to win is rarely an ineffective strategy and it could have worked here.
Still, uncertainty becomes Con's sole way to win this debate, since the only argument in his favor at this point - that we reduce confusion to use his pronunciation - is nonunique, as both sides reduce confusion. So if Pro doesn't have any benefits beyond that, then I vote Con.
But that's the thing: popularity is a benefit. I don't agree with Pro that popularity inherently imparts correctness to a term, but if it is the most common usage, then it is most effective at reducing confusion for the most people because fewer people have to change. I can see reasons for going the ʤif route, but since confusion over terms seems to be a common thread throughout this debate for both sides, since I don't see a reason why I should disregard popularity as an issue when it comes to linguistics, specifically (Con had the opportunity in both R2 and R3 to make this case), and since popularity clearly affects confusion, I end up voting Pro.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Both sides make decent arguements about Gif or any prefrence being preffered,
That there were decent arguements on both sides,
'Doesn't mean that Con made the better arguements though,
But rather that both argued well, and that depending on one's view, either prefferring Gif or 'Any could be correct.
So I score arguements a tie,
Both used sources, a tie,
Pro accepted Con's method of arguing any rather than Jif, so conduct a tie,
Jif Peanut Butter and Gift,
Both parties made points on why, either consideration wasn't vital.
Tie
The difference between initialisms and acronyms, escapes me,
Though I suppose initialisms tend to be harder to pronounce as an acronym,
It 'seems more a convienence, than a hard rule.
Both made examples of words,
Tie.
While Con has a point about society if wrong, ought be corrected
I'd say Pro has a point about society being less rigerous than science,
Though language has rules, is kind of sciency I suppose.
But, Pro himself used historical early examples of ought, for G pronounciation,
So that one get's the feel that Pro thought language 'ought follow earlier convention.
Tie
Con has a point about the founder's prefrence and intention,
And Pro about societal prefrence.
Tie
Con's point about G's Jee pronounciation,
Pro counters with societal prefrence,
Which makes sense to me, certain accents are 'correct in certain countries,
Tie
Unfortunately I don't have time. I would if I could.
please vote on this
You won this debate it seems but I will not say GG.
This was pure dirty play by you. Truism of popularity. Utter B S!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
round 3 brand new contnetion about language and pouplarity B S!!!!!!!!!!
B S!!!!!!!!
thank you I have gotten it out my system.
Well done you defeated a legend, even if you played dirty to do so.
Oh nnnnnnnnnooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
I mean yes, do your best. I'm also busy and understand.
I'm entering finals week, and I have a major project due tomorrow night; plus I need to knock out an extra credit assignment if I am to get a decent grade.
I will not be able to properly read and evaluate this.
It is your DARTizen civic duty to vote on this debate.
Can't vote if the moment I see the topic I am biased.
Either way, I am disappointed in Pro, either for him typing a topic that is clearly a truism or not seeing how easy it is to argue his position. Mostly the latter.
Please vote.
The Topic is a truism.
bump, hoping for votes
thank you for taking the time.
Just skimmed a little, and this looks like a good debate with the immediate curve ball from con at the start.
I'll try to make the time to read it in depth.
I initially thought you were just perplexed by how I came to a certain conclusion, but now, it's pretty clear you just don't like my view of the debate. That's fine, we often disagree and you chalk it up to "voter incompetence", so if this is all you're interested in doing once again, then I'm not interested in continuing this conversation.
I'll point out, though, that when your opponent presents a new rebuttal in the final round, e.g. Pro's point that "There is a huge difference between how morals, science, and politics are determined and how language is", you have the opportunity to rebut that point in your final round. New rebuttals are fine in the final round, new constructive arguments are not allowed. There's a difference. If you want to be technical, presenting new rebuttals to points made before the previous round is usually out of bounds, but most people on this site get away with it, and that wouldn't have been the case here, anyway. I'll also note that debaters are welcome to present new constructive arguments in their second constructive round so long as it isn’t the final. Just because it upsets you that Pro did it doesn't mean that he was wrong to do it.
Jif peanut butter sound was turned totally against pro via 'gift' being semantically similar too. Con - 1
Historical usage of G vs original/historic pronunciation of GIF - Con 2
Consistency - either zero-sum or Con-favoured - Con 2.5
Popularity - Con points out that popularity can be totally wrong, we need to determine if it's right or wrong rendering it moot - Con 3 Pro - 0.5
There is no other way to interpret this debate quite honestly.
your vote will be highly appreciated, I am curious how you interpreted this debate.
this makes absolutely no logical sense to me, I destroyed Pro's round 1 completely tore it to shreds and turned it against Pro.
Then Pro builds a BRAND NEW case in Round 2, I kick it in the bud and see absolutely no way for Pro to win without violating debate structure protocol and making brand new points in final Round.
Pro does this and wins by 1 tiny baseless point.
That is simply unbelievable to me and I know for a fact that this is a severe anomaly. I will just have to accept this as part of the price of being a brave instead of timid debater. I absolutely don't comprehend how I lost it, I have reread it and to me, Con clearly won this debate in multiple ways.
There is absolutely nothing about language that makes it so that the popular option is automatically the best so much so as to render the less popular one to be ruled out.
they aren't allowed to do that especially if it's along the line of a brand new contention.
I destroyed Pro's case entirely in Round 1, so Pro built a case from scratch in Round 2.
I destroy that in Round 2 so Pro tries and grasp at straw that language is a popularity contest by definition.
This is nonsense, you know it and I am done discussing it. I have to accept there is a blindspot of voter incompetence and avoid debates where the opponent is going to be able to spring brand new attacks in last round and voters will uphold it.
That’s not a truism. It’s a truism to argue that what’s most popular would be appreciated by the most people. It’s not a truism to argue that what’s popular is best because popularity begets trends in definitions, and that those trends are the most pressing concern in this debate. I’ll also note that I didn’t vote on even this argument that popularity is automatically superior, but rather on the basis that this pronunciation’s popularity links to greater reduction in confusion. So, please shelve the self-righteous indignation about what I’m enabling when I specifically and directly stated that I wasn’t picking him up on what you’re claiming is a truism.
Also, I’m surprised I have to say this, but if your opponent presents a new rebuttal in their final round (which they are allowed to do), you are similarly allowed to rebut that final round rebuttal in your final round. Just because you didn’t take the opportunity does not mean it wasn’t available to you.
It is 100% a truism to say that if something is more popular it automatically is the superior option meaning the debate is a truism start-to-end. My second line of defense was defended against by a brand new final-round line by Pro that I couldn't reply to without violating the rule to not bring brand new things in last Round and it was insufficiently handled by Pro altogether but I can't explain why without violating the structure.
This was complete dirty trashbag play by Pro and you are enabling it.
From what I can tell, you tried two tacks with it. First was to just call it a truism, which I just don't agree is the case. It's not a truism to argue that popularity should be paramount in determining how GIF should be pronounced. Second, you argued that since other popular ideas as regards science, morals and politics were still wrong, popularity doesn't indicate how one should proceed. I agreed with the latter initially, but Pro effectively argued in his final round that language is a distinct category. I don't see a response to that in your final round, so I'd say that while you sufficiently handled it up front, you didn't sufficiently defend your handling of it.
I don't understand at all how you feel I insufficiently handled the popularity angle but thanks for voting.
popularity truism ooookay. No idea how I lost this, need to revisit and understand how voters perceive certain things.
still needs votes, ty if you do
That's basically the reasoning, yeah.
Well, it's gotta be catchy, if they want the voter behind it.
: D
There's not really a rule as to what initialisms become acronyms, other than ease of use. Eff-bee-eye is more clear and easy to pronounce. There are also "backronyms" commonly seen in politics, where you come up with a clever acronym then back-fill the words it stands for.
USA FREEDOM Act: Uniting and Strengthening America by Fulfilling Rights and Ensuring Effective Discipline Over Monitoring Act
The Ffffffbeee.
"The difference between initialisms and acronyms, escapes me,
Though I suppose initialisms tend to be harder to pronounce as an acronym,
It 'seems more a convienence, than a hard rule."
An initialism is when you say the 'initial letter of each word. An acronym is when those letters are pronounced as their own word, like the examples in argument, SCUBA, NASA, etc. I was merely correcting the use of the word acronym to describe words like FBI, there wasn't an important argument being made here.
Call me a pedant if you want.
Remind me about it in the coming weeks and I should be able to manage.
Would either of you be interested to (please) vote on those debate?
bump
thanks so much! I'll keep that in mind. I wont do it right now, since there is a month left, but I some other time. thanks!
Removed vote for insufficient analysis.
https://info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy#sufficiency
RFD:
Sorry everybody! Here's my real vote.
Pro was equal to Con regarding Grammar and Conduct, however Con's arguments were much longer and more detailed. While there were good sources on both sides, Con's are much more reliable (I mean, it IS a dictionary after all)
So, even though I agree with Pro, Con has better arguments. Con wins this IMO.
Good evening,
Please review
https://info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy#arguments
https://info.debateart.com/terms-of-service/voting-policy#sources
The whole thing can get long, but in gist, think of a vote as a short movie review with spoilers. These two debaters make it pretty easy with clear contention headings. You don't need to list every sub-plot, but if you were reviewing The Dark Knight returns certainly the main characters fates at each others hands should be mentioned (treating them as contentions, rather than as the debaters).
Sources tend to be tied so long as both sides do their due diligence. Any point other than arguments should only be awarded for a serious lead in that category, regardless of who wins arguments (every so often I'll find someone's use of evidence superior, even while they ultimately lose arguments).
Something fantastic about your votes, is you're a rare person who can recognize the difference between your personal preference and who you believe argued better; please keep it up, and you'll be an amazing voter in hardly any time at all.
Well in that case, Pro used Wikipedia and Wikitionary, notoriously unreliable sites. Even though moderation on wikipedia is tightening, I still think it is unreliable to a degree.
You used Merriam-Webster and Oxford, notoriously reliable and well known for being reliable.
Whiteflame warned me before to not help voters who voted for me make their votes better. I am not sure I can say any more than I said there, please ask barney or whiteflame for more assistance.
You should compare the arguments, mention what they were etc, explain why one convinced you even.
As for sources how they are used is also relevant, not just the sources themselves. It is fine to leave sources tied and not justify that. If you believe a side used them better and/or had more reliable sources to a degree worth a vote, explain and contrast some.
I simply think you had better and more detailed arguments. both you and Pro used dictionaries, however Webster is much more reliable. I dont know what else to say.
Where did you.justify the arguments vote?
I dont really know what else to say :/ sorry
I guess I can try one more time but if that doesnt cover it then I give up, at least for this debate
You didn't even cover what the arguments were nor contrast sources. I am happy you voted for me obviously but you must be trolling. That will just get deleted.
thanks! I'll re-do it now.
Reason:
Honestly I pronounce it GIF with a soft g (pro's argument) but RationalMadman ultimately wins this debate IMO.
Removed by voter request.
You can @whiteflame or barney and ask for it to be removed. You can write your reasoning here right now, comment by comment and link to each via the orange number at the top right of the comments' URLs.
sorry still figuring out the system
it wont let me edit or delete it but if someone does I'll add a new one with a better reason
That is not a valid reason...
got it, I'll vote after I read it.
Debate is done
this should be fun