"Pro has also not properly defined what "the ends justify the means," entails. "
I'm so sorry you're having difficulty in what I'm saying.
Basically it just means the end result determines the action to be correct. I think that's what I meant where I said the result has claim on the cause to be a justified cause.
"Pro is proposing that we ought to live according to this maxim proposed by Niccolo Machiavelli."
I'm not proposing it because we already do . So my position is, that statement is true. Your position is that it is false.
One example is I live by eating vegetables and exercise. Now because of the results of those two things, the procedure I take to get those results are justified. If you want proof of that , we can go there.
"In order to argue the notion, we require from pro first, a moral framework that establishes a coherent range of moral importance as well as an argument indicating the validity and soundness of said moral framework. "
I just gave you an example above. Pretty much case closed for showing an everyday case of living by the topic statement. The statement holds true.
I'll give you another example. The result of not having emphysema shows justification of taking the act to resist cigarette smoking.
"Pro has proposed neither, and conclusively, his entire case of round one can be effectively discarded. "
Either you ignored the first round or just didn't understand it. I don't know why you can't speak up when you don't understand something.
"First, just because we already do something, does that mean we ought to do so? "
Possibly. Like I said, is what I'm saying true or not ?
Just because someone says something should be done, it doesn't mean people aren't doing so already and what is healthy to do hence why the "should" is there.
For example, people should go to school. People should live healthy.
Does this mean these statements aren't true and active?
See, if you're just barely thinking at the surface level when you see debate topics like these, you won't avoid getting caught up in what is really sensible in which you suspected was not.
"Many people commit murder and rape, but that does not entail we ought to do these things."
Futile point, has nothing to do with my position.
"Mall has not made an argument for what we ought to do. "
You ought to recant this statement now.
"We can subsequently observe this with examples: "
Looks like you are doing so a line later. You spoke too soon.
"a. A person running a red light to avoid a rear collision.
b. A person undergoing bodily amputation to save their life."
"These are things people can do certainly, but what makes it true that we ought to act in such a manner?"
Let's answer based off the examples. I want the result of avoiding a rear collision, I should follow example "a".
I want to save my life in which the way is amputation.
Is it starting to click now ?
"Maybe it is the case that people do these things to achieve ends that are subjectively desirable to them, but just because something is the case, why does that mean that it ought to be that way? "
Hey I think you are starting to catch on but let me give you a little boost here.
I believe you understand what cause and effect are. The actions and results.
There is no other way to get a result than the way it has to be to get it. This is what I was saying in the first round. You quite didn't catch on.
I'll reiterate the following.
We should live and do live by doing what is to be done to get the results necessary.
"This is, of course, the is-ought gap in manifestation. "
Hopefully we bridged it for you. I do appreciate all the questions. That is what really opens our minds to try to understand something versus only combating it so kudos on that.
"Mall has not proven the former, and his examples seem to suggest the mode of individual relativism as opposed to cultural or societal relativism. "
Certainly proven the topic statement.
"take the example of a woman murdering her husband because the end of wishing her husband dead justifies the means of achieving such. "
We can live by the end result justifying the cause of method without applying it in all cases.
Now your rebuttal might be, by that statement I put, I agree that we should not or it is false to live by the topic statement.
But I clearly just gave examples in where we can live by it. Keyword"live" so we can't live by something based on the picture you just promoted. We'd compromise our existence, perhaps inevitably perish.
But we can live by the topic statement based on the illustrations I've given making the statement valid.
Also just to cover your content with the word "should ", when talking about what we should live by, naturally, we should do the things that account for us living.
"Mall argues that people ought to act in ways that deter from civility and order or social interactions and entails a state in which we lack the discretion to act coordinatively."
Never said any of that . You can't find one word of that in the description or the first round. This is where when you don't know a person's position in detail, you're going to have to step up and ask them.
"Pro is making an ought statement, and must functionally bridge the is-ought gap divide."
Done so.
"Pro is making a moral claim and must posit a framework of moral acceptability."
That's completely false. Let me nip this in the bud. Even if I were to start arguing about ethics, right and wrong, I suspect your next question would be, why is such and such right or wrong?
I can see that. You can ask who am I to say what is right and wrong and all like that but my friend, we're basically talking cause and effect.
"Pro in this case must show how the actualization of individual conceptions of desirable ends will create a society that is desirable to inhabit, and as I have shown, this is far from the case."
Done so.
Are either of you willing to vote on this debate and this duplication of it?
(https://www.debateart.com/debates/3615-we-ought-to-live-by-the-maxim-that-the-ends-justify-the-means)
I am running out of time unfortunately.
Do you think you could vote on this debate, as well as its duplicate (https://www.debateart.com/debates/3615-we-ought-to-live-by-the-maxim-that-the-ends-justify-the-means) if you would please? I am just running out of time, and I can assure you the decisions are very simple.
A different statement must pose as the resolution to create the debate that Pro was hoping for. @Mall states, "We ought to live by the maxim that the ends justify the means." Having a statement such as this rather than a question like "should the ends justify the means?" results in them having the burden of proof. Throughout the debate, Pro did not define any aspects of the motion, nor did they make any sound arguments at all. I am not yet privileged with a vote, but my "vote" goes to @Novice_II almost by default.
Although you're technically correct. Your argument feels like a strawman. You refuse to partake in showing him there's more effective moral frameworks (depending on what you want to accomplish). It feels more like you just refused to play the game and tipped the board.