Instigator / Pro
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1500
rating
25
debates
42.0%
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Topic
#3547
Jesus is not God
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
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After not so many votes...
It's a tie!
Tags
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- One day
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
0
1487
rating
31
debates
35.48%
won
Description
There are many contradictions in the Bible and Christianity. I would like to state that Jesus is not God. Lets leave it at that.
Round 1
Pro
#1
Jesus is not God. This is the statement I will be going for.
I am a Muslim and we believe that Jesus is not God nor the son of God. He was a Prophet and we love him so much. I will begin to show verses in the Bible that show Jesus is not God and it is down to Con to resolve these quotes.
‘And there is no God else beside Me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside Me. Look to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else.’ (Isaiah 45:21-22, Jonah 3:5-10)
This clearly demonstrates that there is no God beside the Father. God means the creator of all things, the most powerful etc. There cannot be 2 Gods.
The everlasting, one God, in whole or in part, does not die, disintegrate, or decompose: ‘For I the Lord do not change.’ (Malachi 3:6)
This quote clearly demonstrates that God is not broken down into parts. So wipes out the trinity.
‘God is not a man’ (Numbers 23:19)
‘For I am God, and not man’ (Hosea 11:9)
‘For I am God, and not man’ (Hosea 11:9)
So God is not a man, yet Jesus was a man. Now if Jesus is not divine on earth, then how is he God? Because God has to be God always. I will let Con sort this out.
‘a man who has told you the truth’ (John 8:40)
‘Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know.’ (Acts 2:22)
‘He will judge the world in righteousness through a man whom He has appointed’ (Acts 17:31)
‘the man Christ Jesus’ (Tim. 2:5)
‘Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know.’ (Acts 2:22)
‘He will judge the world in righteousness through a man whom He has appointed’ (Acts 17:31)
‘the man Christ Jesus’ (Tim. 2:5)
Jesus was called a man many times.
The Bible says that God is not the son of man.
‘God is not a man nor a son of man’ (Numbers 23:19)
Jesus is called the son of man many times
‘so will the son of man be’ (Matthew 12:40)
‘For the son of man is going to come’ (Matthew 16:27)
‘until they see the son of man coming in His kingdom.’ (Matthew 28)
‘But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority’ (Mark 2:10)
‘because he is the son of man’ (John 5:27)
‘For the son of man is going to come’ (Matthew 16:27)
‘until they see the son of man coming in His kingdom.’ (Matthew 28)
‘But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority’ (Mark 2:10)
‘because he is the son of man’ (John 5:27)
The Bible then says that Jesus denied being good and he said that only God is good which ambiguously denies Jesus as God.
Jesus spoke to a man who had called him ‘good,’ asking him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.’ (Luke 18:19)
The Bible also says that God is greater than Jesus and this clearly denotes Jesus as not God as there cannot be anyone greater or on the same level as God.
‘My Father is greater than I’ (John 14:28)
‘My father is greater than all.’ (John 10:29)
‘My father is greater than all.’ (John 10:29)
Can the father be greater than Jesus if Jesus is God? I will leave that for Con.
Jesus never told anyone to worship him. Only the father, how canny.
When you pray, say Our Father which art in heaven.’ (Luke 11:2)
Why should followers ask Jesus of nothing?
‘In that day, you shall ask me nothing. Whatsoever you ask of the Father in my name.’ (John 16:23)
Why does the Bible separate the two entities, Jesus and God?
‘that they might know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.’ (John 17:3)
Does God have a God? Why did God worship God?
‘he continued all night in prayer to God.’ (Luke 6:12)
Jesus also prayed how Muslims today pray, same with a lot of other Prophets
‘he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, ‘My Father’ (Matthew 26:39)
If Jesus was God, and God was all powerful, why couldn't Jesus save himself?
‘During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.’ (Hebrews 5:7)
Can Jesus be God, the servant of God and the son of God and the son of man at the same time?
For Peter, Jesus was a servant of God ( Matthew 12:18)
This quote speaks for itself
‘The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.’ (Acts 3:13)
Why couldn't God raise himself? Why was he needed to be raised in the first place?
‘We must obey God rather than men! The God of our fathers raised Jesus’ (Acts 5:29-30)
Both the Quran and the Bible state that Jesus was the servant of God
‘your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.’ (Acts 4:27)
‘of Your holy servant Jesus.’ (Acts 4:30)
‘I am indeed a servant of God.’ (Quran 19:30)
‘of Your holy servant Jesus.’ (Acts 4:30)
‘I am indeed a servant of God.’ (Quran 19:30)
Why can't God do nothing without the father?
‘The son can do nothing by himself; he can only do what he sees his Father doing.’ (John 5:19)
‘I can of mine own self do nothing.’ (John 5:30)
Why was God with God?
‘he went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.’ (Acts 10:38)
Why did Jesus (apparently God) fail to perform the miracle the first time and had to do it a second time? Is this part of God's attributes?
One time when Jesus tried to heal a blind man, the man was not healed after the first attempt, and Jesus had to try a second time (Mark 8:22-26).
Why did Jesus not know who touched his clothes?
‘At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, ‘Who touched my clothes?’ (Mark 5:30)
I thought he was God?
‘He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them.’ (Mark 6:5)
How can God, the most powerful, get more strengthened?
‘An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him – in the garden of Gethsemane’ (Luke 22:43)
Why did Jesus want the fathers will to be done and not his?
‘not my will but Yours be done.’ (Luke 22:42)
‘I do not seek my own will, but the will of Him who sent me.’ (John 5:30)
‘For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of Him that sent me.’ (John 6:38)
‘I do not seek my own will, but the will of Him who sent me.’ (John 5:30)
‘For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of Him that sent me.’ (John 6:38)
Why did Jesus not want his testimony to be the same with Gods? Why was it seperate?
‘Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.’ (John 14:1)
Can God be more powerful than God?
‘Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.’ (1 Corinthians 11:3)
Can God increase is wisdom when He is already the most wise?
‘And Jesus increased in wisdom.’ (Luke 2:52)
Why did God not have to learn, but Jesus did?
God does not need to learn, but Jesus learned: ‘Although he was a son, he learned obedience’ (Heb. 5:8)
If Jesus was tempted, and God cannot be tempted, is that not a contradiction?
’tempted in every way – just as we are’ (Heb. 4:15)
‘for God cannot be tempted by evil’ (James 1:13)
‘for God cannot be tempted by evil’ (James 1:13)
So Gods teaching is not his but it is Gods? Confusing
‘So Jesus answered them and said, ‘My teaching is not mine, but His who sent me.’ (John 7:16)
Could Jesus not live without the father?
‘I live because of the Father.’ (John 6:57)
There are many Prophets who are referred to as the sons of God
Adam: ‘Adam, which was the son of God.’ (Luke 3:38)
Jacob is God’s son and firstborn: ‘Israel is my son, even my firstborn.’ (Exodus 4:22)
Solomon: ‘I will be his father, and he shall be my son.’ (2 Samuel 7:13-14)
Ephraim: ‘for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.’ (Jeremiah 31:9)
Jacob is God’s son and firstborn: ‘Israel is my son, even my firstborn.’ (Exodus 4:22)
Solomon: ‘I will be his father, and he shall be my son.’ (2 Samuel 7:13-14)
Ephraim: ‘for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.’ (Jeremiah 31:9)
Con can call this cherry picking quotes but I would like him to explain every single quote that I have presented. Thanks
See you soon, Con
Con
#2
Rayhans absurd level of burden of proof
Rayhan makes a bold claim in this debate. Rayhan claims all Christian theologians, philosophers and scholars throughout Christianity's thousands of years of history and study are wrong in their interpretation of the bible. To know such a thing, must mean he's read ALL Christianity theological theory and even disproven said philosophy of God, wow, impressive, it almost sounds unbelievable. Hence he should have the answers for everything I'm about to say to him. From Thomas Aquinas to Meister Eckhart. He must of debunked every sect of Christianity, which numbers into the dozens.
The everlasting, one God, in whole or in part, does not die, disintegrate, or decompose: ‘For I the Lord do not change.’ (Malachi 3:6)
God is infinite in the Bible, so he indeed cannot be broken down into parts. However, in no Christian sect is Jesus said to be a separate part of God; he IS God. He and the father are one. There is no separation between them. God is not separate. You just think of Jesus as separate from God, but he's not. Hence, your point is nullified as they are one. Jesus is God embodied.
‘God is not a man’ (Numbers 23:19)
‘For I am God, and not man’ (Hosea 11:9)So God is not a man, yet Jesus was a man. Now if Jesus is not divine on earth, then how is he God? Because God has to be God always. I will let Con sort this out.
Jesus was a man, yet he was also God. I can be said to be something, but not that thing in my entirety. You would be correct to say I'm my brain, but I'm MORE than just my brain. In this same sense, Jesus is God, but not God in his entirety. Hence, God is greater than Jesus. To use an analogy, my arm is part of me and part of man. But a man is not an arm and cannot be reduced down to simply being an arm. In this same sense, God is Jesus but MORE than Jesus. Because God is truly infinite, he cannot be reduced to any of your mental boxes, and Jesus is not God in his entirety. Jesus in most if not all Christianity sects is God taking on the limited form of a human temporarily.
Jesus spoke to a man who had called him ‘good,’ asking him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.’ (Luke 18:19)
Jesus is simply one aspect of God, just like my arm is an aspect of me. But my arm is not greater than me. God in his totality is MORE than Jesus (but Jesus has infinite potential). Many sects of Christianity (such as Quakers) believe Jesus was an ordinary man like me and you, who lost his ego and became one with God and his will. This is why Jesus is a limited version of God (but with infinite potential and hence is still God acting out free will as a mortal). Since you never specified Catholicism, you must also tackle this version of Christianity and the 10 other interpretations. Meister Eckhart, a Christian theologian, developed a similar argument, arguing that because God is infinite, he must be all of reality. not be reality would imply a space God does not occupy, which would mean God is not infinite. Ibn Arabi, the Muslim theologian, created a similar philosophy for God on these lines too.
‘My Father is greater than I’ (John 14:28)
‘My father is greater than all.’ (John 10:29)
I hope I've already answered this with the previous quote. God is greater than Jesus but Jesus is not separate from God. just like you're greater than your arm, but your arm is still part of you and is you. The same applies to God and Jesus in many sects of Christianity and their interpretations. Jesus is a human individualisation of God, a temporarily limited version of himself sent into the world of form (with infinite potential). Having said all this, there's no point in me replying to all of your quotes, as you need to debunk every version of Christianity. every theological viewpoint and sect. I imagine you opened this debate whilst only thinking of Catholicism. I believe I've already offered enough of a bowling ball into your argument to make it unnecessary for me to respond to each and everyone of them or not. There wouldn't be enough characters even if i wanted too.
I will offer you some videos to brush up on your understanding of theology. The first is Ibn Arabi and his philosophy, the second is by Meister Eckhart. I use their arguments as an extension of mine here (although their philosophies are way too complex to type here without taking up all my characters).
Round 2
Pro
#3
Rayhans absurd level of burden of proof
I do not think my level of burden of proof was absurd. It is simple. Jesus is not God. I never said according to the Bible, I never said according to Catholicism, all my statement was is 'Jesus is not God'. The Bible is not the book of Christianity? It is, which is why I quoted every quote from there. Con could disagree with Sunni and Shia and quote things from the Quran, however we all follow the same book. I never thought of a specific sect when I wrote this statement, I just wanted to say that Jesus is not God.
To know such a thing, must mean he's read ALL Christianity theological theory and even disproven said philosophy of God
Do Christians have different interpretations of the Bible? If your own religion's people is interpreting the Bible in many different ways, which one is right? This is a deluded point to say the least. If you are saying there are so much theologians and philosophers that are Christian and they all have different interpretations, then which is right? Because there can only be 1 right one as the Bible is not supposed to be open to interpretation, it is considered to be a divine book.
God is infinite in the Bible, so he indeed cannot be broken down into parts. However, in no Christian sect is Jesus said to be a separate part of God; he IS God. He and the father are one. There is no separation between them. God is not separate. You just think of Jesus as separate from God, but he's not. Hence, your point is nullified as they are one. Jesus is God embodied.
If Jesus comes on earth, and Jesus is God, then where is God? You can't say he is on earth and in the heavens because that makes 2 entities. There are 3 entities. The father, the son and the holy spirit. According to Christians, Jesus is not the father and vice versa. Yet they are all God. This is a contradiction as Jesus and the father are 2 separate entities. If one is on earth and the other is not on earth then the one on earth is separate to the one not on earth. It is common logic. But to say that they are one means Jesus holds as much power as the father does. Simply untrue.
You would be correct to say I'm my brain, but I'm MORE than just my brain.
This analogy plus the arm analogy to later come is inaccurate and absurd. If my brain is removed from me then I will be lifeless. So does that mean that the father relies on Jesus? I thought the father was all powerful? Same with the arm. If my arm gets removed from my body then it will limit me. If both my arms get removed, I cannot do certain stuff. And God is supposed to do everything. Illogical.
Jesus is God, but not God in his entirety.
Jesus has to be God entirely or he is not God full stop. If God is the most powerful, Jesus needs to be the most powerful. This means no one can be more powerful than him. If there is an entity that is more powerful than him then he cannot be the most powerful. Therefore cannot be God. If we are talking about Jesus, there was an entity that was more powerful than him therefore he cannot be God, as God is the most powerful. And yes I am thinking that these are 2 separate entities as Jesus is not the father vice versa. If Jesus is not the father, then he is a separate entity. He cannot be a part of the father physically because it goes back to that brain analogy which leaves you lifeless, something that God cannot be.
Jesus in most if not all Christianity sects is God taking on the limited form of a human temporarily.
If God becomes a human and he is 100% God still, then why was Jesus not the most powerful? Nor the most knowing? If you are God you must be 100% God or not God at all. Because if Jesus is 99% God and 1% human, then he is limited. And of course God cannot be limited. God takes on a form of a human, even if it for a short time, it would make God limited. God has to eat to survive, same with drinking, God has to sleep, God has to go to the toilet. Are these the things that God should do?
Jesus is simply one aspect of God, just like my arm is an aspect of me
Flawed concept, go back a couple paragraphs to know why.
This is why Jesus is a limited version of God
This is illogical. If he has infinite potential but cannot carry out that potential then that means he is limited. And a limited version of God is a contradiction as well. God is not limited. So if you are a limited version of God, you are not God at all.
God is greater than Jesus but Jesus is not separate from God.
How can God be greater than God when God is supposed to be the greatest? It just makes it even the more confusing. How can Jesus not be separate from God if he needs to eat to survive, he need to drink to survive. And you still think that Jesus and the father are not separate?
I was hoping to understand the trinity a bit more, however you have left me more confused than I already was.
Con
#4
I do not think my level of burden of proof was absurd. It is simple. Jesus is not God. I never said according to the Bible, I never said according to Catholicism, all my statement was is 'Jesus is not God'. The Bible is not the book of Christianity? It is, which is why I quoted every quote from there. Con could disagree with Sunni and Shia and quote things from the Quran, however we all follow the same book. I never thought of a specific sect when I wrote this statement, I just wanted to say that Jesus is not God.
Then you do believe Jesus cannot be God according to the Bible, since that's where you necessarily get your arguments from.
Do Christians have different interpretations of the Bible? If your own religion's people is interpreting the Bible in many different ways, which one is right? This is a deluded point to say the least. If you are saying there are so much theologians and philosophers that are Christian and they all have different interpretations, then which is right? Because there can only be 1 right one as the Bible is not supposed to be open to interpretation, it is considered to be a divine book.
No two Christians seem to agree on everything. No matter how educated.
If Jesus comes on earth, and Jesus is God, then where is God?
God is INFINITE, OMNIPRESENT. He isn't limited by things such as space or time. To be infinite is to have no boundaries. God is incomprehensible. To have no boundaries means he cannot be comprehended with the mind, as the mind puts things into boxes, polarities, and runs off relativeness. God is not in a "place". God is the place itself. God's being has no end. There is nowhere where he is not. Watch the Ibn arabi video i sent in the previous round, (Muslim scholar).
"You can't say he is on earth and in the heavens because that makes 2 entities"
No it doesn't. My arm is on my keyboard while my eyes are in my skull. Does that make me two, despite two aspects of me being in different places in space and time? Jesus is always attached to God. Just like both my eyes and ears are to me despite being in different places. if you read my debate, "all is one", you might get an interesting response to this question. God is never in a "place". God IS place. To be infinite means God is everything. Nothing exists BUT God.
There are 3 entities. The father, the son and the holy spirit. According to Christians, Jesus is not the father and vice versa.
Entity definition: Something that exists as a particular and discrete unit.
Following this definition, my thumb is an entity. My hair is an entity. Am i my thumb? well yes, but no. It would be right to say my thumb is part of me but it is not me in my totality. It is not greater than the totality of me. So yes, my thumb is me, its part of my being. But its not me in my totality. This is perfectly symmetrical between the relationship of the holy trinity.
If my brain is removed from me then I will be lifeless.
sure... but you're still not JUST your brain. Other aspects of your body are part of you too. You could say your brain is the most important part of you, but my analogy still stands.
So does that mean that the father relies on Jesus?
Of course not. This is a strawman argument. I could have replaced my brain with any other part of my body and it would have made just as much, if not more, sense. In the sense of a human we rely on the brain but God is INFINITE. I'm not sure why you're not getting what that means.
Jesus has to be God entirely or he is not God full stop. If God is the most powerful, Jesus needs to be the most powerful.
Why? That's denying God's infinity. God isn't a man in heaven with a long beard. Jesus IS the most powerful. He is part of God. He's simply temporarily in the theater of life, experiencing what it is to be mortal. When Jesus died, he didn't truly die. Nothing in this world could hurt him. He IS all powerful. When Jesus proclaimed he could move mountains with nothing but a thought if he wished, The only reason he didn't was out of respect for people's free will. That's why he let himself be crucified, he does not deny his own laws.
You're thinking is extremely dualistic in black and white terms, "it's either this or that," but the reality is much different. God won't be limited by your black and white thinking.
God takes on a form of a human, even if it for a short time, it would make God limited.
Not if being limited was simply an unreal illusion which you could overcome at any moment by realising your oneness with the Father (as Jesus taught). God is not limited at all, even if he allows aspects of himself to be embodied as a human. As long as the thing which limits God is simply a pretend or an unreal illusion and has no basis in reality, it is not something which limits God's power except God itself.
God has to eat to survive, same with drinking, God has to sleep, God has to go to the toilet. Are these the things that God should do?
Again with the black and white thinking. God in his most high form does not, but other aspects of himself he lets do these things if they want to experience such a thing. Have you ever thought to think what is right for God, he might not agree with. What you think God is too high and might to experience. He might not agree with? God doesn't think ANYTHING like a human.
This is illogical. If he has infinite potential but cannot carry out that potential then that means he is limited. And a limited version of God is a contradiction as well. God is not limited. So if you are a limited version of God, you are not God at all.
Not if the thing God allows to limit himself is ultimately unreal, and has no basis in reality which he can overcome at any moment by admitting it isn't real.
How can God be greater than God when God is supposed to be the greatest?
I've answered this a million times. My thumb is part of me, but not me in my totality. Therefore, I'm greater than my thumb. Jesus is simply part of the greater body of God. God is infinite. I'm unsure why you think these gotcha's of relativism work against God's infinity. I'm disappointed. Atheists constantly use these ridiculous arguments against Muslims and Christians. And here you are using the same tactics of trying to confine God to finity. Putting a graven image on God, limiting him to what humans can do, such as only being in one place at one time.
Round 3
Pro
#5
Then you do believe Jesus cannot be God according to the Bible, since that's where you necessarily get your arguments from.
Exactly, however I have not intended to pick things out from the denominations, just the Bible, which is universal correct? There can only be 1 correct interpretation.
No two Christians seem to agree on everything. No matter how educated.
Thank you for agreeing.
God is INFINITE, OMNIPRESENT. He isn't limited by things such as space or time. To be infinite is to have no boundaries. God is incomprehensible. To have no boundaries means he cannot be comprehended with the mind, as the mind puts things into boxes, polarities, and runs off relativeness. God is not in a "place". God is the place itself. God's being has no end. There is nowhere where he is not. Watch the Ibn arabi video i sent in the previous round, (Muslim scholar).
I believe that God is infinite yes. He is not limited to anything, that is why the universe exists. He created the universe as he is a independent, self sufficient entity that has no beginning nor will have an end and is a something, not a nothing. This is the atheists down point however I do not want to stray away from the topic. Now if God is not limited to time and space, and he is on earth, which is limited to time and space, is that not a contradiction? Muslims believe God does things that befit his majesty. For example, a person could say can God cease to exist? OR can God lift a rock that is too heavy for him to lift? As He is God, and he has always existed the cease to exist question is illogical. And so is the rock question. Because as God is the most powerful, there cannot be something more powerful than him. So it is a contradiction to say can God lift a rock that is too heavy, as it is not in his attributes to do this. God can do anything that befits his attributes. It is the same as coming to earth If God is self sufficient, He doesn't need to rely on anything for His existence, then he cannot come onto earth. As he has to eat to survive, making Him not God. Very simple to understand, yet many Christians do not as well as agree on the trinity.
No it doesn't. My arm is on my keyboard while my eyes are in my skull
Illogical argument. If you do not have eyes, then you cannot see what you are typing. So your your sight is dependant on your eyes. If you really want to compare a human to God, so be it, however this is not logical.
Nothing exists BUT God.
There are things that exist that is not God otherwise we can call everything God. We cannot call God's creation God because if you want to do that, then you have to call ALL of his creation God. For example, God forgive me, a fridge is God. This is a disgusting statement but one that you are literally agreeing to. There are things that exist and these things that exist are not God. God created these things. Maybe you meant before the creation of the universe, nothing existed but God. But not now.
Entity definition: Something that exists as a particular and discrete unit.Following this definition, my thumb is an entity. My hair is an entity. Am i my thumb? well yes, but no. It would be right to say my thumb is part of me but it is not me in my totality. It is not greater than the totality of me. So yes, my thumb is me, its part of my being. But its not me in my totality. This is perfectly symmetrical between the relationship of the holy trinity.
This still does not make any sense. My thumb is an entity yes. But without my thumb, I could not hold anything/ I will be more limited than before. If the thumb is part of me, then it relies on me to function. Correct? My impulses, my bones, my blood etc. There cannot be a thumb which is not part of me that functions when it is part of me. This entire analogy does not make any sense. The reason being is because if we take away the heart then the human will die. This is not a strawman argument, it is just facts. So if you want to use this analogy on humans then we can use it on God correct? I do not agree but you do. So if we take away the heart, then I will die. If we take away Jesus, then God will not exist. This is what you are clearly saying and you are clearly misunderstanding it.
sure... but you're still not JUST your brain. Other aspects of your body are part of you too. You could say your brain is the most important part of you, but my analogy still stands.
Yes I am not just my brain, but my brain allows me the capacity to think. And if the brain was not in my head, I could not think which would make me worse off than before. This makes me limited, which is again not an attribute of God.
I could have replaced my brain with any other part of my body and it would have made just as much, if not more, sense. In the sense of a human we rely on the brain but God is INFINITE. I'm not sure why you're not getting what that means.
So if we replace the brain with a heart and does this still make sense? Does the father rely on Jesus? This is true according to you. If we remove the heart, instantly we die. So if we remove Jesus........
Why? That's denying God's infinity. God isn't a man in heaven with a long beard. Jesus IS the most powerful. He is part of God. He's simply temporarily in the theatre of life, experiencing what it is to be mortal. When Jesus died, he didn't truly die. Nothing in this world could hurt him. He IS all powerful. When Jesus proclaimed he could move mountains with nothing but a thought if he wished, The only reason he didn't was out of respect for people's free will. That's why he let himself be crucified, he does not deny his own laws.You're thinking is extremely dualistic in black and white terms, "it's either this or that," but the reality is much different. God won't be limited by your black and white thinking.
This is ignorance. God has infinity. Yes. But when God is on earth, His infinity is no more. He is now a mortal. If Jesus is the most powerful, why could he not save himself from the crucifixion?
'44 And being in an aagony he prayed more earnestly: band his sweat was as it were great drops of cblood falling down to the ground. Luke:22:44
This verse clearly demonstrates that Jesus was not all powerful. He was fearing the alleged 'crucifixion'. If he was the most powerful, why did he say 'let it be your will not mine'? Surely he doesn't want his will to be done as it is not a powerful one. Only Gods will is the most powerful. It truly baffles me how Christians believe in the trinity.
I had a chat with another Christian and he started to waffle about divine simplicity and the church fathers etc. His defining and his arguments were completely different to yours. If Christians cannot agree on the trinity, what chance do Muslims have?
Not if being limited was simply an unreal illusion which you could overcome at any moment by realising your oneness with the Father (as Jesus taught)
There are many prophets in the Bible who are the sons of God. Does this make them God too? Why only Jesus? Did he want people to worship him? It is unfathomable to think this. You cannot say it was an illusion because I am limited right now. Does this mean I am God as well? Of course it doesn't.
I've answered this a million times. My thumb is part of me, but not me in my totality. Therefore, I'm greater than my thumb. Jesus is simply part of the greater body of God. God is infinite. I'm unsure why you think these gotcha's of relativism work against God's infinity. I'm disappointed. Atheists constantly use these ridiculous arguments against Muslims and Christians. And here you are using the same tactics of trying to confine God to finite. Putting a graven image on God, limiting him to what humans can do, such as only being in one place at one time.
How am I limiting God? You are and I am just saying that you are. The thumb argument does not make sense either. If I am greater than my thumb and the father is greater than Jesus, how does this make Jesus God? God is the greatest, none can be more greater than Him. This is what we both believe. However you have contradicted yourself. Before you said and I quote 'Jesus IS the most powerful'. Now you are saying and I quote 'Jesus is simply part of the greater body of God'. Who is more greater, Jesus or God? And if you say they are equal in greatness you have contradicted yourself 3 times.
The question I have is this. If I do not believe in the trinity then I go to hell according to Christians. Why is the trinity so hard to fathom if it is the key belief of my religion and impacts my salvation. My salvation relies on believing in the trinity. If Christians cannot agree, then how can I agree? And how can I agree if it is such a hard topic to explain? It is called blind faith. Nowhere did Jesus admit to being God, nowhere did any of the Prophets worship Jesus. Jesus was born out of a woman's womb, so is she the mother of God? Then Jesus died so God died.
This is just an inference here, if there is a man and a woman and the man rapes the girl and murders her and the girl is innocent. The innocent girl does not believe in Jesus and the man does. The man goes to heaven and the girl goes to hell. This is what many Christians have told me and I do not know if it is true or not.
I apologise for anything I have said about God wrongly in this debate as Muslims believe Shirk is the biggest crime a Muslim can commit. I am just going off your beliefs and questioning them
To me, Con has not answered most of the quotes I gave him at the start of the debate then contradicted himself. I am still very confused over something which 'my salvation' depends on.
Thank you for reading my points and this debate,
Vote Pro
Con
#6
Now if God is not limited to time and space, and he is on earth, which is limited to time and space, is that not a contradiction?
Not necessarily, no. I could attack this both from a scientific and biblical angle. God is only limited on Earth in so far as he chooses to forget his oneness with himself (the father). But once he overcomes the unreal illusion of not being the father (because of the ego). He can do the works of God. From a scientific perspective, a Quaker would say God is space and time itself. God is omnipresent, which means He's EVERYTHING nothing which was made was not made through and from his being. God is space, time itself. A Quaker can simply argue for an eternal universe, (energy cannot be created nor destroyed) and could still be consistent with their theological perspective of God.
For example, a person could say can God cease to exist? OR can God lift a rock that is too heavy for him to lift?
The lift a rock argument is an ancient Greek philosophical argument to prove that an omnipotent God is impossible. The answer is quite simple actually; God CAN do both of these things at the same time. Einstein throws a massive curveball at this idea through his theory of general relativity. He found that space and time were interwoven into a single continuum known as space-time. And events that occur at the same time for one observer could occur at different times for another.
He doesn't need to rely on anything for His existence, then he cannot come onto earth. As he has to eat to survive, making Him not God.
I've answered this above. God can come to Earth through people like Jesus. He can live like a human but can transcend this through realising his real identity as God, if he only doesn't believe himself God while embodied through taking on an illusion (such as an ego which creases a sense of "I" separate from God). As soon as he overcomes and realises that this is an unreal illusion which doesn't exist in reality. He begins to exist in the reality of God and becomes one with him. Judging by the fact you're creating arguments so fast; its obvious you never watched the ibn arabi video and meister eckhart videos. Which gives the same answers i do but much better.
Illogical argument. If you do not have eyes, then you cannot see what you are typing. So your your sight is dependant on your eyes. If you really want to compare a human to God, so be it, however this is not logical.
I never said my sight isn't dependant on my eyes. The analogy and only thing which needs to be compared is the fact different parts of me exist in different parts of space-time.
then he cannot come onto earth. As he has to eat to survive, making Him not God. Very simple to understand, yet many Christians do not as well as agree on the trinity.
I don't see why it has to be so black and white. Either one or the other. God in his most heavenly form. He does not need food, yet it wouldn't deny his infinity to let aspects of himself take on unreal illusions which make them temporarily limited through their own free wills. which they can break out of at any moment through realising their oneness with God. Somewhat like if an eagle was saying it couldn't fly, despite having perfectly functional wings. So yes, Jesus was partly of man, as he wasn't wholly without duality or ego, but he still realised his oneness with God. At least in some Christian sects, such as the Quakers. Catholics vehemently disagree with this and believe he was perfect from birth. So once more, it depends on which sect. I personally don't like Catholicism. It is easily the hardest sect of Christianity to defend in a debate like this, so I just won't.
There are things that exist that is not God otherwise we can call everything God. We cannot call God's creation God because if you want to do that, then you have to call ALL of his creation God.
Quakers believe this, and so did Einstein, so do i. Its exceptionally theologically and scientifically sound.
This still does not make any sense. My thumb is an entity yes. But without my thumb, I could not hold anything/ I will be more limited than before. If the thumb is part of me, then it relies on me to function. Correct?
You also rely on your thumb to function as much as you rely on it. There is no separation between you and it. You are it so you're dependant on it as you are yourself.
So if we take away the heart, then I will die. If we take away Jesus, then God will not exist. This is what you are clearly saying and you are clearly misunderstanding it.
Once again, your black and white terms. When I make an analogy, I'm not making an analogy to EVERYTHING. The only commonality in that analogy which is relevant, is the analogy that they're part of our body. No, God won't die without Jesus, just like I won't die if I cut my nails. Red herring argument.
Yes I am not just my brain, but my brain allows me the capacity to think. And if the brain was not in my head, I could not think which would make me worse off than before. This makes me limited, which is again not an attribute of God.
ok...
So if we replace the brain with a heart and does this still make sense? Does the father rely on Jesus? This is true according to you.
If we both agree that God is infinite, why are you assuming I believe God is reliant on Jesus like I am on my heart? this is a strawman argument. They don't have to be 1 to 1 in literally everything. I've also already answered this too, with my finger nail analogy. God is reliant on other aspects of his being like I am, because he's infinite, I'm unsure how that detracts from the other similarities I presented though. The black-and-white fallacy
This is ignorance. God has infinity. Yes. But when God is on earth, His infinity is no more. He is now a mortal. If Jesus is the most powerful, why could he not save himself from the crucifixion?
Didn't I answer this in the very same paragraph? I get the sense you're not even reading my full argument before typing.
This verse clearly demonstrates that Jesus was not all powerful. He was fearing the alleged 'crucifixion'. If he was the most powerful, why did he say 'let it be your will not mine'? Surely he doesn't want his will to be done as it is not a powerful one. Only Gods will is the most powerful. It truly baffles me how Christians believe in the trinity.
He lets it happen because he respects the law of free will. Quakers once more, believe Jesus did have some ego illusions left in him, which is why he was able to embody as God on Earth while not being as high an aspect of God's full being. In fact, Quakers believe it is only when he died on the cross that he fully overcame the ego and attained full union with God. Catholics don't believe this, but once more, this isn't a debate against Catholicism.
There are many prophets in the Bible who are the sons of God. Does this make them God too? Why only Jesus?
Some sects of Christianity believe Jesus was the example to be followed, not the exception like Catholicism spouses. If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move...Matthew 17:20
There are many such quotes like this, which make it appear like everyone is a spiritual child of God and can do the works of Christ, not just Jesus. It is just that only Jesus realised this connection to God.
how am I limiting God? You are and I am just saying that you are. The thumb argument does not make sense either. If I am greater than my thumb and the father is greater than Jesus, how does this make Jesus God? God is the greatest, none can be more greater than HimYou've been saying God cannot be in two different places at once. You've been projecting human qualities on God all though ought this debate. Is your thumb not part of you? if its not, then you're just simply wrong. If it is, my argument is perfectly coherent.The question I have is this. If I do not believe in the trinity then I go to hell according to Christians. Why is the trinity so hard to fathom if it is the key belief of my religion and impacts my salvation. My salvation relies on believing in the trinity. If Christians cannot agree, then how can I agree?
Why don't Shia and Sunnis just agree? Why don't extremists and moderates just agree? Many sects of Christianity literally don't believe in the trinity. Jehovah' witness being one of them. According to which Christians, do you go to hell for not believing in the trinity? Catholics?
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There is no material to make things out of. He created the materiel to make it. It never existed and then it did. Because He is that independent entity that created it.
> What's your POV on Ehyeh's reasoning that God is me and God is everything?
what did god make everything out of ?
before god made everything, what kind of stuff did god see ?
imagine being god
before anything was created
sort of, alone in the non-existent black void
god then decides it wants to make stuff
what does god make everything out of ?
Yup, the Quran also states the universe is expanding.
Call it absurd all you want, but certain sects of Christians believe it and many of the brightest thinkers of all time believe it. Two of some of the greatest scientists of all time were pantheists in carl Sagan and Einstein. MANY of the most famous and influential philosophers of all time were pantheists too. Maybe 3 in the top 10 were pantheists, clearly this belief is over presented compared to the general population in the sciences and philosophy. Taoism even believes this philosophy, its more prevalent than you think.
You constantly give me weird indirect threats with the day of judgement. We will see rayhan, we truly will.
> I do not get this. The universe had a beginning. That is my point
the big bang is still happening
and everything that we experience is part of the big bang
If i stab someone, am I using God to stab someone, or is God killing someone ?
What's your POV on Ehyeh's reasoning that God is me and God is everything?
I personally feel like rape is bad. Can i PROVE it, like i can that the big bang happened? i cant, because morality relies on feelings. If god has different feelings, he has different morals. No philosopher has proven their moral system objectively correct, ever. You wont be the first.
This is too absurd. You think that God is me? Let us just see what you think on the day of judgement.
God is also you rayhan, a punching bag even if God has no feelings. Don't think that part of God is hurting or insulting when you hit it. If God is everything he is also you, so he hits inanimate parts of himself through you. How could he condemn himself?
I do not get this. The universe had a beginning. That is my point
So again, if you dont know what is good and bad. Is rape good or bad? And if you do not want to label it, then you automatically are disagreeing with nearly everyone on the planet.
Then we can do this. Is God a knife? I can use that knife to stab someone. Is it me that killed a person, or God?
Your the one who thinks lowly of God if he were to be these things. You think being waste, or a fly LOWERS God. I think no such thing, as i realise human morality cannot be proven objective, my sense of duality, cannot be proven correct. Once more you have a massive burden of proof to show these things are OBJECTIVELY shameful.
> Most scientists agree on this that 13.4 billion years ago, the big bang occurred etc.
are you part of the big bang ?
I do believe that yes. Its the most likely philosophically and scientifically. I don't even believe in good and bad in the terms humans define them. I'm unsure why God would, or why this stuff DEGRADES God for you, it doesn't for me, as i put no negative judgement on these things. It doesn't make him lower in the least. Your the one who has a moral system you put on God.
Read the tao te chi
I don't believe in duality, good and bad like you. I don't believe in labeling things as good or bad. If im correct that labelling things as good or bad is wrong, then why would it be BAD or wrong for god to be everything?
Lets just assume that God is also a chocolate. I am going to eat the chocolate, does that mean I am eating God? Lets also assume that God is a toilet, am I going to do my waste in God? Lets also assume that God is my bed, am I going to sleep on God? Lets also assume that God is a punch bag, am I punching God?
> If he made from nothing, all their critiques at atheism are pretty silly if they too believe something can be made from nothing.
"nothing" never has and never will and never can "exist"
and this precludes it from being "made into" anything
Why would God care about being a refrigerator? what disgusts you may not disgust God. The wisest of humans argue for moral stoicism. I imagine God would be the greatest of stoics, i have no reason to see God as being limited by being something like a fridge, what bothers you, may not God. How can you say you and God ought to feel the same way or that it would be shameful for God to be these things? who decides what's shameful? you and your sense of right and wrong, good and bad? how do you know God would feel that way when even HUMANS don't always agree with you on this? a stoic philosopher would argue a man shouldn't care for these things as its not helpful. Then why would God? your burden of proof is hefty.
So God is also a toilet? God is in a rubbish bin? God is in someone's chimney? Do you really believe that?
Secondly, the universe has not always been here, there is a beginning. Most scientists agree on this that 13.4 billion years ago, the big bang occurred etc. Now the universe relies on time and space, it is a dependant entity. A dependant entity cannot always have been here, it needed to have been created. The reason for this is very simple. Something that relies on something else, must have to be created by something or it will be an infinite regress. And this is impossible. It is also a cause and effect. Something has to make the small matter explode in the big bang, it won't do it itself with no outside influence
Thirdly, just because the Bible says it, does not mean it is true. Where is the evidence for that? Is the Bible reliable? Who are the authors of the 4 gospels that said this?
Elon musk, Spinoza, Einstein, Tesla, Hegel, George Berkeley, lao zi, the stoics. So many philosophers are pantheists, to the point where a large amount of philosophers are usually pantheists. Pantheists are overwhelmingly over represented in the scientific and philosophical fields compared to the general populace. There's overwhelming credence both in the philosophical field and the scientific field that pantheism is the most likely to be the reality of nature, that or atheism.
in the Bible it says Jesus came down from heaven. Meaning he already existed before he was conceived or born as a human.
The universe has very very likely always been here too! so in pantheism it isn't a contradiction for the universe to be an extension of Gods being. I'm not a Christian. Jesus had a beginning as a man, but he's always existed through God in another form before his earthly form was created. He's a direct descendant of Gods being. He had a beginning as the person "Jesus" but he never had a beginning as a being.
Omnipresent:
Present everywhere simultaneously.
Present in all places at the same time; ubiquitous.
Being everywhere simultaneously
How can God be everywhere at once if he is not in the universe itself? That's simply impossible. I've said it a million times, but jesus being God does not mean God is limited, maybe in your human sense of morality, right and wrong. Of which you have no idea if is objectively correct or in alignment with the reality of God. The evidence suggests both scientifically and philosophically, if God exists the universe is an extension of him
God is not created. God has always been there, I am sure you believe this too as you are Christian. But since Jesus had a beginning, he was born and came out of a womb, he was created. I do agree that atheism is just a lack of belief though. Whatever atheists say, it is wrong, the only possible solution for the creation of the universe is God. No one can differ
True, followers of the Abrahamic faiths stumble over themselves trying to argue god that God is simultaneously omnipresent but not all things. Either God made from nothing or he made from himself. If he made from nothing, all their critiques at atheism are pretty silly if they too believe something can be made from nothing.
No because that would show his weakness. It would make him weaker because God would then be restricted in doing certain things. Yes Jesus did miracles, but only with the father helping him, he does not do them without the father. Jesus relies on the father for his existence, not the other way round. It is like saying can God make himself into a toilet. This is not God like, it goes against his attributes, but as you said, God must be all things. Can God be waste? Of course not
> Can a human be a part of God with a humans attributes?
as the sole source of all things
god must necessarily be all things
Can a human be a part of God with a humans attributes?
well, according to spinoza, jesus is part of god, but no more and no less than you or i
Please vote on this one if you can,
thanks
Something, a same thing, being in two places at once is illogical. Yet it's physics - quantum superposition.
Also universe appearing from nothing is not in contradiction with the laws of physics as symmetry and conservation laws work only within linear time -
one moment follows another. Since the first moment universe appeared was not preceded by another moment, such laws do not apply.
Stephan Hawking said the universe could have come from nothing which is illogical as nothing does not even exist
I believe in Stephen Hawking because I saw him at MIT in 1994.
I declined. I don't hate Islam, I am not a Trump. I just can't understand how any intelligent person can believe in any religion. I do believe in Stephen Hawking.
If you hate Islam that bad, I have challenged you to a debate
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I have to agree with rayhan16 on this one.
Why would I mind?
Do you mind if i take this debate, rayhan?