Instigator / Pro
6
1387
rating
34
debates
22.06%
won
Topic
#3104
Allowing transgendered athletes (mtf) to compete in athletics against biological females is unfair
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
15
Better sources
4
10
Better legibility
2
5
Better conduct
0
5
After 5 votes and with 29 points ahead, the winner is...
Nyxified
Tags
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- Two weeks
- Max argument characters
- 15,500
- Voting period
- One month
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
35
1593
rating
21
debates
66.67%
won
Description
I just ask that you debate in the intended spirit. I don't have the time to make my resolutions bulletproof. I want to spend my time debating
Round 1
Pro
#1
INTRODUCTION
--------------------------
I do urge the judging audience to ignore the comment section until the debate is judged, or at least try you best. My opponent has been presenting their argument to people in the comments for whatever reason instead of keeping things constrained to the debate arena.
It’s important to have an accurate interpretation of the resolution before we begin. We are looking at MTF athletes competing against girls in sports. The resolution states it is unfair. In this context I believe it is a fair assumption that it is unfair, based on the harm it does to actual biological females.
In this debate, I will prove the harm to females caused by allowing transgender athletes to compete. If female athletes are harmed by allowing transgendered athletes to compete, that should be enough for me to win the debate.
WHAT THIS DEBATE IS NOT ABOUT
---------------------------------------------------
This debate is not about whether transgendered athletes should be allowed to compete against real females. I don’t have to prove it should be illegal for them to compete against bio females. I only have to prove it is unfair towards female athletes.
I don’t have to prove males are genetically superior at certain sports. I can argue MTF trannies are physically weaker than real women (they aren’t), and still prove it is unfair. Judges keep this in mind if my opponent starts taking the debate off topic. We need to stick to whether the arguments are relevant to the resolution or not
HISTORY
-------------
Girls involved in sports, have higher self esteem. They have improved academics, longer lives, a better social life and end up in better careers. They also show better ability to cooperate and show leadership ability. https://childrensmedicalgroup.net/sports-benefit-girls-in-many-ways/
Thankfully in the 1970s, the United States government realized the benefits of female participation in sports and developed what became known as title IX. Title IX ensured that male and female sports would receive the same amount of federal funding.
Prior to title IX, 1 in 27 females participated in sports. Now we have 2 in 5 girls participating in sports. Given the benefits I listed in the last section, we can see that it’s a good thing more females are participating in sports. https://www.womenssportsfoundation.org/education/title-ix-and-the-rise-of-female-athletes-in-america/
Title IX is the reason female sports exist. This is now under threat by boys who want to play dress up, so they can have an unfair advantage over women. Make no mistake, Transgender athletes are pushing girls out of sorts for a myriad of reasons One reason is that, there is necessarily a limited number of spots on rosters for sports teams. https://www.nfhs.org/articles/making-cuts-on-athletic-teams-the-necessary-evil/
MTFs UNFAIR ADVANTAGE
---------------------------------------
Men are stronger than women. They are faster and they have many physical advantages. On average women have 40% less upper body strength than males and 33% less lower body strength. Studies also show males have on average 26 more pounds of skeletal muscle. https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/jappl.2000.89.1.81
What’s happening with sports is you have men past their prime, all of a sudden putting on a dress and transitioning to female, suddenly dominating in female sports.
At 44 years old, Mary Gregory past his prime and unable to compete against 20 something males, decided to compete against women and went 9 for in competitions and broke 4 world records. https://www.outsports.com/2019/5/6/18527075/transgender-powerlifter-records-backlash-transphobia-virginia-marygregory-trans-usapl
When Fallon Fox figured out he was a mediocre male fighter, he decided it would be easier to beat up women, and that’s when he literally broke the skull of an opponent.
Here is what his opponent had to say. She has fought tons of women, but said this about Fox
“I’ve fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can’t answer whether it’s because she was born a man or not because I’m not a doctor. I can only say, I’ve never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right. Her grip was different, I could usually move around in the clinch against other females but couldn’t move at all in Fox’s clinch," https://www.sportskeeda.com/mma/news-when-transgender-fighter-fallon-fox-broke-opponent-s-skull-mma-fight
My opponent would likely have you believe that the physical advantages of men are limited to testosterone. He’ll say that trans athletes are not at an advantage because of doctors helping them to manipulate testosterone and estrogen levels. However, men have larger hands, and shoulders. Men have bigger lungs and are better endurance athletes as a result. Blood pressure differences exist between the sexes. https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/advan.00118.2006#:~:text=Sex%2DBased%20Differences%20in%20Normal%20Physiology,-One%20consequence%20of&text=The%20differences%20between%20the%20sexes,of%20body%20fat%20than%20women.
-------------------------
MEN ARE FASTER
Not everything is known about what differences exist yet, and even less is known about why those differences exist. For example we know men run faster than women. We have lenty of examples of MTF athletes coming to female track and fied and dominating.
“The two biologically male students, Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood, finished first and second, respectively, in the 55-meter dash this year, crushing the competition. Miller set a new girls indoor record and also won the 300-meter. The year before, the two finished first and second in the 100-meter state outdoor championships.” https://nypost.com/2019/03/04/trans-athletes-are-making-a-travesty-of-womens-sports/
The world record for a woman in the 100 meter dash for example is 10.49. A male running that speed has no chance of qualifying for the olympics. https://southslopenews.com/are-men-stronger-than-women/
So it’s no surprise that Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood dominate the biological females in track.
This isnt women being inherently lazy and not working hard enough to beat trans opponents like some will say. Studies show that even after 2 years on HRT males retain a speed advantage of 12% on a 1.5 mile run. https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/trans-women-retain-athletic-edge-after-year-hormone-therapy-study-n1252764
There really hasn’t been any studies done after the 2 year mark, but there is no evidence that trans athletes lose that 12% advantage after the 2 year mark is over, and we have plenty of accounts of trans athletes completely obliterating both female opponents and very long standing records with ease.
This is nothing new, we have had men using their unfair advantages to try and dominate women sorts for a while. When Renee Richards could not compete as a man, she started to compete against women in her 40s and did quite well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9e_Richards
CONCLUSION
--------------------
MTF trans athletes contain a significant advantage over women. They are taking their records daily. They are pushing them out of athletics because of limited roster sace on sports teams. My opponent cannot dispute the great advantage of men over women in sports unless he tries to claim the only differences are in testosterone levels, which even if true trans females still have more testosterone than biological females.
We also have the issue of limited roster space, so even if MTF trannies competed on a level playing field with female athletes, the acceptance of them in female sports would mean that less biological females get to play, and we will be destroying the good things that title IX, has brought us.
Con
#2
1. Introduction
2. Rebuttals
2.1 Claim by Claim
2.2 Summary
3. Arguments/Analysis
3.1 Why Males Have an Advantage
3.2 Why Trans Women Don’t
3.3 Why Any Remaining Advantage Already Exists In Cis Athletes
3.4 Summary
4. Conclusion
5. Citations
Note: My apologies if you’re not supposed to present arguments in the comments. I think it’s an important discussion, and this is my first debate here. Furthermore, I ask that pro avoid calling trans people ‘trannies’ or ‘men playing dress up’.
- Introduction
In my speech I will 1. Outline the way con intends to defeat the resolution, 2. Show why the arguments for pro are incorrect or don’t prove the resolution, and 3. I will present my own constructive arguments and analysis. It is the belief of con that after a few years of HRT, trans women participating is fair on balance.
Key terms:
- Gender: The identity of an individual often in relation to sex.
- Sex: The group of biological traits you most closely align with (including intersex). Usually refers to sex assigned at birth.
- Cis/Cisgender: Your gender matches your sex assigned at birth
- Trans/Transgender: Your gender does not match your sex assigned at birth
- Hormone Replacement Therapy(HRT): Medical treatment with one or more of the following:
- The use of anti-androgens to suppress testosterone. (Referred to as Testosterone Suppression or TS)
- The use of estradiol for estrogen production (Referred to as Feminizing Hormones or FHT).
Henceforth refers to both A and B
The resolution outlines that a trans female’s participation in athletics is unfair to cis females, and con will defeat this by proving that, while they could have an unfair advantage based on the point in their transition they compete, there is a more than reasonable and common point in an trans athlete's transition where any advantage they might have doesn't quantify an unfair advantage based on their sex assigned at birth most of the time. Con will do this by proving:
- Analysis of what gives cis men an advantage over cis women and why some factors aren’t actually an advantage for cis men at all
- HRT significantly diminishes or completely removes factors giving cis men an advantage over cis women and leads to a level playing field between trans and cis women
- Anything that exists beyond these arguments is consistent with advantages seen from one cis athlete to the next and barring participation based on these or similar advantages hurts cis women.
2. Rebuttals
2.1 Claim by claim
1. “Men are stronger”
- 40% less body strength and 33% less lower body strength. Only applies to cis men. No evidence given to suggest the advantage exists in trans females.
On the contrary, the same source pro cites for argument 2 says: “Prior to [FHT], transwomen performed 31% more push-ups and 15% more sit-ups in 1 min… After 2 years of [FHT], the push-up and sit-up differences disappeared.”[1] The ability of trans women, then, seems to be completely equal to cis women
Table 4 of the BJSM shows after 2.5 years, which isn't a full course of HRT[2][3], trans women occasionally underperformed ciswomen[1 (table 4)]. The same article gives reason to think trans women retain their advantage in some respects after 2.5 years in running, however, the study used as evidence didn't include TS and the only study that directly examined running times in relation to testosterone shows no advantage existed within trans women after TS[4].
While studies are limited in scope, most not exceeding 2-3 years, all studies show a significant drift towards the ability of a cis female[1][4][5]. When changes from HRT take 5-10 years[2] and most studies didn’t look at both TS and FHT simultaneously, it would require substantial evidence to prove this trend wouldn’t continue until trans women completely equalized most of the time.
- 6 more pounds of skeletal muscle. With regards to muscles, same as above.
With regards to skeletons, there is good reason to think that differences in the skeletal size by sex are a disadvantage as much as they are an advantage in trans athletes, as decreased haemoglobin from HRT[6] lowers the amount of oxygen the body can transport while the amount of oxygen needed is the same[7].
- Fallon Fox
“When Fallon Fox figured out he was a mediocre male fighter, he decided it would be easier to beat up women, and that’s when he literally broke the skull of an opponent.”
This claim flies in the face of basic logic. Fracturing/breaking a segment of the skull isn’t rare in MMA[8], Fallon Fox went undefeated as a male fighter, and during her career as a male she defeated every single one of her opponents in the first round until she came out on March 5th, 2013[9].
It makes even less sense when you see Fallon Fox was delivered her only loss and often took fights to the 2nd/3rd round during her career as a female[9]. In fact, she only won in the first round once, or 75% less. This fails to prove pro’s argument and actually proves con’s argument.
2. “Men are faster”
- Speed advantage of 12% on a 1.5 mile run. The only study (as noted by[5]) that directly looks at the relation of TS and running found that trans women had no advantage in distance running after HRT[4].
The same source my opponent uses would support con’s argument. The advantage of trans women in running went from 15-31% to 9-12% after 1 year of TS (not 2 years of HRT as my opponent says)[1], and it's reasonable to expect that would decline further as changes from HRT are only finished after 5-10 years[2][3] and the study didn't include FHT(data is lacking).
- Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood. A single example of 2 trans athletes ‘sweeping’ the competition, only for the one who performed better than the other to lose twice to a cis woman soon after when they haven’t undergone a full transition yet[10] (so much for ‘domination’) does nothing to prove an inherent disadvantage.
Summary
In summary, I’ve shown there is no good reason to believe an advantage is retained by trans women after HRT in terms of their physical performance relative to cis women and why the examples given by pro don't prove the resolution. I’ve shown good evidence that shows trans females equalize in capability the longer that HRT goes on. To quote Sports Med, which holds an even more radical view than con:
“Currently, there is no direct or consistent research suggesting transgender female individuals (or male individuals) have an athletic advantage at any stage of their transition”
Pro doesn’t give explanation of why some of the factors mentioned have any relation to performance. I’m no expert, and I don’t imagine my opponent is either, but simply saying bigger lungs = better endurance or even just mentioning blood pressure differences exist at all does not suffice because saying that alone is meaningless.
3. Arguments/Analysis
3.1 Why men have an advantage
Data is either limited or hard to come by as to why cis men develop greater physicality than cis women, data is limited/ hard to come by, but studies suggest that greater physical ability is related to distribution/ratio of muscle/fat and the length of muscle fibers[11][12]. This argument will show why men retain that advantage, the relationship between testosterone levels and said advantage and why other factors are irrelevant.
Pro fails to establish reasons cis men have an advantage beyond the size of the lungs between a man and a woman, saying it makes them better endurance athletes. I will show how fat metabolism/energy production mitigates this impact.. I will examine the role that bone structure/bone-mineral density(BMD), fat metabolism, and testosterone play.
Bone density/structure
While it is true that men have a BMD, it is also true that race plays a similar role in BMD. Whole body BMD was 0.7g/cm^2 lower in white men than Asian men, 0.8g/cm^2 lower in Asian women than white men. Lumbar spine BMD was 0.13g/cm^2 lower in white men than black men, 0.25g/cm^2 higher in black women than Asian men)[13 (table 4)].
Bone structure/characteristics of the skeletons of black men differ greatly from white men[14]. What we can deduce from this is if BMD/bone structure was the deciding factor, sports would have to both black and trans participation as any advantage from BMD or bone structure is equally seen by race as by sex[13][14]. Such an idea is ridiculous.
Fat metabolism
Energy in the body is made largely by releasing free fatty acid (FFA) from adipose tissue, breaking down triglyceride (TGC), then combining it with cholesterol and protein to form chylomicrons. These are then mixed with the blood stream and accessed alongside FFA as a source of energy.
The breakdown of TGC into FFA/the mobilization of FFA to be used as energy happens due to hormone-sensitive lipase (HSL)[15], and studies have shown that testosterone is a HSL inhibitor and estrogen increases HSL activity[16][17].
We can conclude that estrogen, among other complex factors, enable women to mobilize FFA faster than men and produce more energy, thus making them more capable in terms of endurance (not including strength or speed).
Testosterone
As said in my rebuttals, the effect of HRT on physical ability is immense, and HRT shows the ability to take trans women to the same level as cis women. To reiterate:
- Trans women stopped having an advantage in strength exercises after 2 years of FHT[1].
- The only study on TS and running showed trans women don’t have an advantage after 1 year of TS[4].
- Trans women, at times, performed worse than cis women after HRT/FHT[1 (table 4)].
3.2 Why trans women don’t have those advantages
Boston University in the “Practical Guidelines for Transgender Hormone Treatment” says
“A practical target for hormone therapy for transgender women (MTF) is to decrease testosterone levels to the normal female range (30–100 ng/dl)...”[18] What this means is that it is reasonable to expect that testosterone levels in trans females reduce to the level seen in cis females usually. We’ve already established how the strength difference between sexes is due to testosterone[1][4].
Con has also shown the advantage in fat metabolism with regards to energy production cis women have over cis men due to testosterone’s inhibitory effects on HSL[16][17]. We also see that, depending on the point in one’s menstrual cycle[19], trans women may have less estrogen than cis women, thus putting them at a disadvantage.
Finally, it seems evident that any advantage that trans women receive from their BMD or bone structure is mitigated by the fact that the difference is negligible and or the difference is similar between races as between sex[13][14].
3.3 Why any remaining advantage is already seen between cis athletes
Regulations designed to ensure fair competition between cis and trans women harm cis women. Take the examples of Christine Mboma and Beatrice Masilingi, both cis Nigerian running athletes who were disqualified from the 2021 Tokyo Olympics because of their testosterone levels[20]. These athletes, by virtue of their own biological ability, have a testosterone level that’s ‘too high’, and were disqualified for it due to the regulations meant to prevent the ‘advantage’ that trans people have.
Imagine if Dean Karnazes, a male runner who seems to never reach his lactate threshold[21], was forbidden from running. The situations are no different, and in both cases, the internal biology of the runner gives them an advantage, but in one case, the fear of “trans people dominating the sport” prevents women from rightfully participating.
3.4 Summary
All of the factors that have been looked at have definitively shown that trans women are capable of reaching a level equal to that of cis people or that, where they are not capable, the difference is not enough to qualify an unfair advantage sufficient for disqualification as said difference can already be seen between two cis athletes.
4. Conclusion/Summary
In my speech I’ve shown how research shows trans women are completely capable of reaching the same point as cis women when it comes to running and strength exercises.
I’ve presented constructive arguments/analysis that give compelling evidence that the resolution is false, those arguments/analysis being 1. The factors that give or do not give men an advantage 2. Using argument #1 to prove transgender women do not have an advantage 3. Building upon arguments #1 and #2 to show why any still existing advantage is not an unfair advantage. Even if these arguments don’t stand, it’s not logical to say that trans women have an unfair advantage if there is no good reason to believe they do, as established by my rebuttals.
For these reasons, con sees no reason for the resolution to stand, but rather sees good reason that it is, like most efforts aimed at ‘protecting’ cis women from trans women, misunderstood at best. And just like every other time restrictions are put on trans women to protect cis women, these efforts go on to harm cis women as well.
If you want to talk about trans women ‘stealing’ cis women’s trophies, then take one look at Christine Mbomba and ask her how she feels about being barred from even competing for the trophy because her participation is 'unfair'.
For these reasons, so proud to oppose.
- Citations
- https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminizing_hormone_therapy#Physical_changes
- https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/feminizing-hormone-therapy/about/pac-20385096
- https://cgscholar.com/bookstore/works/race-times-for-transgender-athletes?category_id=common-ground-publishing
- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357259/
- https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/02/28/bjsports-2020-103106
- https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/can-transgender-athletes-be-fairly-integrated-into-womens-sports/
- https://www.outsports.com/2021/2/22/22296155/fallon-fox-trans-mma-fighter-lie-inclusion-misleading
- https://www.mixedmartialarts.com/fighter/Fallon-Fox:8EE8EE2C62CA09BF/
- https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/feb/23/terry-miller-transgender-track-star-loses-chelsea-/
- https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8477683/
- https://www.reference.com/science/males-physically-stronger-females-c2792a4225417356
- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8044008/
- https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28548276/
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatty_acid_metabolism
- https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9741194/
- https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17408628/
- https://www.bumc.bu.edu/endo/clinics/transgender-medicine/guidelines/
- https://www.restartmed.com/normal-estrogen-levels/
- https://apnews.com/article/namibia-africa-olympic-games-2020-tokyo-olympics-sports-f71b7d1e9f5ba0fbc08a1e0ab346c20b
- https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/the-running-blog/2013/aug/30/dean-karnazes-man-run-forever
Round 2
Con
#4
I took the liberty of looking through Wylted's forum posts a while back, and it seems he, like the rest of the debates he is in, intends to forfeit entirely. I'm very disappointed in hearing about this since I wanted the chance to prove my position on an argument that personally affects me. If anyone would like to challenge me to a similar debate, I would completely welcome that.
In my previous speech I gave convincing evidence for con's position that show's my position's validity. I've shown how trans women equalize in terms of strength, speed, endurance, etc... I've also taken it upon myself to analyze why cis men have an advantage and how that is either not an advantage for anyone who is assigned male at birth (e.g. lung size, even if it were to improve endurance, is mitigated by testosterone being a HSL inhibitor whereas estrogen increases HSL activity), not an advantage for trans women (e.g. larger skeletons require more oxygen whereas hormone therapy reduces haemoglobin and thus decreases the ability of the body to transport oxygen), and for what is an advantage, I've shown why trans women don't have that (e.g. testosterone).
Pro, even if they were not to forfeit later rounds, would find it extremely challenging to tear down all of the scientific evidence I've provided and prop up their own scientific evidence especially as they have now wasted half of the argument without ever themselves analyzing what would give trans women or cis men an advantage in anyway beyond mentioning the existence of seemingly irrelevant facts (e.g. "blood pressure differences exist between the sexes").
It would then seem to me that I have managed to provide the better, more convincing arguments and have bothered to actually look at data to understand it's implications (despite the fact the burden of analyzing most of this [or at least a little bit] would normally fall on pro to establish their opening arguments). Moreover, my opponent has not only forfeit a round and presumably will forfeit the next two, but also used derogatory terms in his opening speech. Finally, I've given significantly more sources than my opponent, many of which are direct scientific studies, one of which is using pro's own source against them, and all that combined shows I have given the better sourcing.
Thank you to anyone who has taken the time to read through the debate to this point.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Slamdunk...
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Full forefeit
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Full forfeit
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
By missing the last three rounds, pro dropped all points offering no defense of has case after initial criticisms.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Full forfeiture on the PRO side.
You blocked me for some reason so I can't respond directly, but here is my explanation.
because I like debating, so I keep trying. However I really don't have time for it.
why do you forfeit almost every debate?
among us is fake
Yep. My thoughts exactly.
"boys who want to play dress up"
"trannies"
What a douchebag
I think he actually retired in 2016. Maybe he did not go back to fighting.
Cyborg Santos
What's the fighter's name?
His whole face got caved in. He still fights though.
Well, I've never seen that one before. It's a good example of how breaking the skull/segments of the skull isn't a once in a lifetime thing in MMA, though
Best broken skull moment in MMA.
https://youtu.be/nlLMRerwO4M
a study that showed being transgender didn't give them an advantage https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357259/
Does wylted actually think gender dysphoria isnt real?
Apologies for the delay in my response, I got considerably sidetracked and wanted to properly analyze the data before making arguments around it.
Nice comeback, by the way.
Your argument is due genius
You know I only give a shit about the debate right? Proving your nonsense wrong here is only o interest to me.
I also think hen a person like you is incorrect itnis impossible to change their mind. You coincidentally believe the stuff about gender dysphoria that make you feel good, and we are in a society where academics will not even publish studies that will offend SJWs because SJWs are scared of the truth and will attack or ruin the lives of academics who do publish inconvenient studies
Regardless, you've still given me no reason to believe that. I've given evidence and you've given me your opinion, and I think that says more than enough about the strength of the claims. Say it's 'obviously' what you're referring to if you think that's true, and it might be, but can you blame me when say 'sewing some sort of nasty flesh dildo onto your vagina' (which is a very interesting way to frame bottom surgery for a transgender male[1])? It doesn't help when you're also insinuating that literally every trans person regrets it and that those who don't detransition commit suicide.
You give two reasons a person might transition (with no sources again), the first is called 'autogynephilia'. I won't examine this too harshly since you acquiesce that it is rare (astronomically so to the point of insignificance). But it's worth noting that 93% of cis women are autogynephiliacs[2] and autogynephilia was invented to prove lesbian trans females only exist because of men who get aroused while cross-dressing and was made by the same person who argued that trans women were nothing more than extremely effeminate gay men[3]. The theory as a whole has no basis in logic[3].
Your second reason is... Interesting. Again, as a trans person, I find it bold to assume that in a world where you can be put to death for being transgender, trans people are routinely disowned and left homeless[4], face 2x the poverty rate and 3x the unemployment rate[5], and where violence and discrimination are an incredibly regular occurrence, your first presumption is to chalk the suicide rate up to trans people 'still being themselves'.
It's even more interesting when you realize that 91% of trans people who have undergone transition surgery would do it again if given the chance[6], something I'm sure you'll ignore by saying it's because those who are dissatisfied are committing suicide (again). This is in spite of a study over 45 years long found <0.6% of 8000+ trans people died by suicide (also showing rates stayed consistent throughout transition)[7] and studies show transition improves mental health/reduces dysphoria[8][9][10][11]. If you would like to claim the Swedish study by that shows increased rates of suicide after transition, here's the researcher who conducted the study saying that, not only is that not what the study shows, but also that transition reduces suicide rates[12].
Here's some more sources on satisfaction with gender transition for good measure, including a review of 72 studies that said "The scholarly literature makes clear that gender transition is effective in treating gender dysphoria and can significantly improve the well-being of transgender individuals.[11]"[8][9][10][11]
Sorry for the long post. My response to debate should drop tomorrow or the day after.
Sources:
1. "What to know about female-to-male surgery" https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/326590#surgery
2. "From Moser's paper which 'shows autogynephilia in 93% of women'" https://medium.com/@mirandayardley/from-mosers-paper-which-shows-autogynephilia-in-93-of-women-9d9d16f147d2
3. "The Autogynephilia Theory Debunked by New German Study" https://www.crossdreamers.com/2020/05/the-autogynephilia-theory-debunked-by.html
4. "Family Rejection Leaves Too Many Transgender Americans Homeless" https://slate.com/human-interest/2017/01/family-rejection-leaves-too-many-transgender-americans-homeless.html
5. "New U.S. Transgender Survey has compelling data about being trans in America" https://www.glaad.org/blog/new-us-transgender-survey-has-compelling-data-about-being-trans-america
6. "Patients Report High Satisfaction with Sex-Reassignment Surgery" https://www.issm.info/news/sex-health-headlines/patients-report-high-satisfaction-with-sex-reassignment-surgery/
7. "Trends in suicide death risk in transgender people: results from the Amsterdam Cohort of Gender Dysphoria study (1972–2017)" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7317390/
8. "Psychosocial Adjustment to Sex Reassignment Surgery: A Qualitative Examination and Personal Experiences of Six Transsexual Persons in Croatia" https://www.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2014/960745/
9. "Long-Term Follow-Up of Adults with Gender Identity Disorder" https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-014-0453-5
10. "Long-term Assessment of the Physical, Mental, and Sexual Health among Transsexual Women" https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23553588_Long-term_Assessment_of_the_Physical_Mental_and_Sexual_Health_among_Transsexual_Women
11. "What does the scholarly research say about the effect of gender transition on transgender well-being? " https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/
12. "Fact check: study shows transition makes trans people suicidal" https://www.transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm
It's called using context clues. I understand English is disgusting and turning into an extremely low context language, but let's be civilized and treat it like a high context language (such as Japanese), while we can.
You mentioned that a study showed 2% regret transitioning. Obviously the ones who commit suicide before they can detransition is what I was referring to. Also, not all people who regret getting their dick cut off, think detransitioning is a viable option.
Transitioning happens for 2 reasons.
The 1st and most rare one is that the person is sexually attracted to the ideal of being a woman. It makes them hard to think about it. Not much different than people who are attracted to being handicapped and want to lose their limbs.
The second reason people transition, is because they hate themselves. They think if they can erase themselves and become a woman, it will make them happy. However, even after the transition, they realize they are still themselves and now they have mutilated themselves. This is why transgender suicide rates are so high post op.
You don't cure gender dysmorphia by cutting your dick off. Or sewing some sort of nasty flesh dildo onto your vagina.
"Only because the ones who don't detransition realize they made a mistake and commit suicide. Not something to brag about"
I don't know about you, but I don't see the word 'regret' or any synonyms of it in this sentence. The irony.
I said the remaining ones who regret it, not all transgenders. Nice intellectual honesty though
I have specified that all the arguments I was making applied to professional sports for good reason. While the majority of my information and arguments relate to professional sports, as that's the realm that this issue is usually discussed in, I believe there are very good arguments that suggest there is reason to believe the need for inclusion in high school or earlier level sports trumps the need for fairness (excluding tournaments). I say this because, in professional sports, the legacy and livelihood of people is dependent on an equal playing field. Events like the Olympics are designed to show the best of human ability, and an unfair advantage almost nullifies that purpose entirely.
However, high school sports aren't that. I have yet to be convinced that the need for fairness when next to nothing is at stake, nor have I been convinced that said need overrules the mental health and inclusion and acceptance of trans individuals trying to live their live as and alongside the gender they identify as. In my opinion, while it is obvious that there would be some people who would be frustrated with the inclusion of people they can never beat, I believe that represents the greatest opportunity to learn and to be challenged. This is something I can attest to from my own personal experiences, but, again, it is a matter of opinion. I put the breaks on inclusion in tournament settings because the entire purpose is to provide recognition for the ability of those who compete, whereas in a club setting, the purpose is to encourage growth and be a fun place for an extracurricular activity. However, none of my beliefs with regards to highschool sports are set in stone.
Oh, you're more than welcome. If you have chosen to preemptively rebuttal me, which is the only way I can see that making a difference, that will be more than transparent to anyone reading and my arguments will stand nonetheless.
If you want to claim that "the ones who don't detransition realize they made a mistake and commit suicide", maybe it wouldn't hurt to link a single source? Just a thought, since I've never heard a single study relating to how the remaining 98%-99.8% of trans people choose to kill themselves, and also I linked 6 different sources.
"Wylted it's called being noble and actually believing in one's arguments and ability to debate.
Not everyone is scared shit to lose and has to hide their entire argument content each debate"
I hope you aren't implying I am scared to lose. I think my record stands on its own in that regard.
Wylted it's called being noble and actually believing in one's arguments and ability to debate.
Not everyone is scared shit to lose and has to hide their entire argument content each debate
My stance regarding that is informed by statistics of the rate of transgender people that detransition (usually between 0.2% and 2% [often closer to <=1%])
Only because the ones who don't detransition realize they made a mistake and commit suicide. Not something to brag about
Thanks for letting me know your arguments before the debate starts. Very intelligent move on your part
Suppose that the only transgenders that transitioned were 16 or older as what you advocate for. If they need to be under hormones for 2 years to compete, they would be at least 18 by the time that is done. How can a transgender individual compete in high school sports if they are at least 18?
The overwhelming majority of transgender athletes would be unable to compete if they only transitioned when 16 or older and if they had to be on hormones for 2 years. The ones that could could only compete senior year and this is assuming that 16 years of age to transition and 2 years of hormones are enough. The experts might claim more time is needed to eliminate the testosterone advantage. I think you said that as much as 5 years are needed to eliminate the testosterone advantage somewhere ( I honestly don’t know too much about this so from my perspective I’m learning). If 5 years of hormones are needed, then this rules out transgender athletes from competing since there wouldn’t be enough time for the hormones to work if the trans individual starts out at 16.
Thoughts?
Without examining how accurate your first claim is (mostly because I truly am not sure of it's validity), to repeat my position, I in no way endorse or support that for the sake of this debate. While there are those who argue for transgender inclusion in professional athletics before 5 years of HRT or for immediately, even, and there is certainly merit to the evidence they present at times, it's not a position I am fully prepared to support.
I won't comment on your beliefs with regards to hormones either, as I do not know what qualifies as 'too young'. My stance regarding that is informed by statistics of the rate of transgender people that detransition (usually between 0.2% and 2% [often closer to <=1%]) and the lack of evidence to believe a significantly higher rate exists for adolescents (partially because of insufficient data)[1][2][3][4]. This evidence combined with my own experiences within the 2SLGBTQQIAAPN+ community are why I support an individual's right to pursue a medical transition after the age of 16, up until which they can use puberty-blockers, which is a position supported by the majority of modern scientists[5].
The only thing I will contest is that I know of no evidence to suggest that bottom surgery is necessary to eliminate 'testosterone advantage'. The amount of testosterone in trans females using anti-androgens (ex: Spironolactone) is significantly reduced and is replaced with estrogen through the use of estradiol[6]. I am prepared to acquiesce this nonetheless if I turn out to be incorrect in testosterone's impact and the effectiveness of anti-androgens, but my position would still stand.
Sources:
1. "The End of the Desistance Myth" http://www.brynntannehill.com/the-end-of-the-desistance-myth/
2. "Factors Leading to "Detransition" Among Transgender and Gender Diverse People in the United States: A Mixed-Methods Analysis" https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/lgbt.2020.0437
3. "Retransition or Detransition: Statistics, Health Care" https://www.verywellhealth.com/detransition-or-retransition-5093126
4. "Research shows less than 5% who medically transition detransition, not 80%" https://morganeoger.ca/2019/06/09/research-shows-less-than-5-who-medically-transition-detransition-not-80/
5. "Dynamic gender presentations: Understanding transition and "de-transition" among transgender youth." https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2018-33024-004
6. "Wikipedia Spironolactone (paragraph 3 of Pharmacology/Pharmacodynamics) (this was the best source for explanation even though it is wikipedia)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spironolactone#Pharmacology
I don't think most trans athletes are on hormones for 5 years when they compete. I also don't think people claiming to be trans should be on hormones when they are too young because they might regret their decision and some things (like genital mutilation) are irreversible. I think castration of trans women is needed to get rid of their testosterone advantage and this is irreversable.
You can say that I believe I am 'entitled to rob cis females of their medals' or I am 'appealing to people's sympathies and fears of being called phobic of something' if you would like to. That doesn't change the fact my entire stance is centred around fairness, and, funnily enough, you haven't challenged my stance or my facts at all. I'd prefer if cis females weren't robbed of their achievements, in fact.
Assigned Male At Birth (AMAB) athletes perform better than AFAB athletes. I have tried to give good reason to believe that the factors that one might believe are the cause of this difference in ability are either insufficient to be classified as an unfair advantage across gender lines (ex: bone density) or can be changed with years of hormone therapy. Claim I am 'guilt tripping' or 'appealing to fear of being labelled transphobic' if you please, but I'm not going to claim you're transphobic unless you do something transphobic, and you haven't. The only thing you've done is say I'm trying to fearmonger or guilt-trip so that you can avoid responding to any of the things I actually said.
Male-sex individuals have a disproportionate advantage at the highest level of every single sport almost (gymnastics is debatable).
Sex, not gender. It's fucking biology. It's a fact. You can be a feminine male and be respected and be called 'she/her' in your daily life but don't for one second think you should be entitled to rob cis females of their medals, world-records etc by appealing to people's sympathies and fears of being called phobic of something.
In a few years time, myself and others will protest this horrible and unfair allowance of male-sex individuals to rob cis females of their hard-earned achievements.
Oh, and I also forgot to mention something. Where I was going with her final fight being in September of 2014 and coming out as trans in March of 2013 means that I in no way endorse her participation in women's sports because, as stated prior, I am only defending the position that after a full transition should a trans athlete be able to compete at the professional level. Making a sweeping statement about transgender athletes using someone who physically could not have completed their transition even partially as an example is disingenuous, but nonetheless it seems that the data would, in spite of these facts, still fall on my side of the house.
Fallon Fox came out as transgender on March 5th of 2013[1], at which point she had beaten 2 opponents in her professional fight record in the first round both times In her amateur fight record, she is undefeated winning every fight in the first round. Since March 5th, she has had 4 more fights, one of which she lost in the third round and only one of which she won in the first round. Moreover, her final fight was in September of 2014.[2] If we look at the professional stats, two opponents always cited against Fallon Fox (who she actually fought before coming out as trans), Ericka Newsome and Elisha Helsper, both have never won a single professional MMA match[3][4].
What we take from all of this information is that not only was Fallon Fox not a 'terrible fighter until he started fighting women' (I don't simply not notice your choice to misgender her either), but moreover, the record that would prove utter domination after coming out as MtF were your claims true goes to show that she performed worse after coming out as trans as opposed to something that would prove unfairness.
If you want to bring the validity of my sources or my information into question, please feel free to do so. I don't want to be the kind of person who can never be wrong, nor do I want to use sources that aren't valid. But I don't think you can do that when you don't provide sources of your own, make claims that go against the information I presented from my sources, and simply declare the data I use is 'cherry picked' for no other reason than you want it to be.
Citations:
1. "Fallon Fox Comes Out as Trans Pro MMA Fighter" https://www.outsports.com/2013/3/5/4068840/fallon-fox-trans-pro-mma-fighter
2. "Fallon Fox MMA Career Statistics" https://www.mixedmartialarts.com/fighter/Fallon-Fox:8EE8EE2C62CA09BF/
3. "Ericka Newsome MMA Career Statistics" https://www.mixedmartialarts.com/fighter/Ericka-Newsome:19406A5D01DAE992/
4. "Elisha Helper MMA Career Statistics" https://www.mixedmartialarts.com/fighter/Elisha-Helsper:CE4E8692AA7FBF31/
Let's just ignore that Fallon Fox was a terrible fighter until he started fighting women and literally breaking their skulls. There is a reason why MTF athletes dominate in absolutely every sport they are allowed to compete in against girls,, and it is ridiculous to bow to cherry picked data over actual real world results of men being able to push females out of their own sports.
I remember the case of 2 MTF runners dominating the best female runners and how after proving their genetic advantage on the field, told the media that the girls needed to work harder to beat them, claiming they were lazy
I'm a left-wing progressive so your guilt trip won't work on me like it would/could on a truly transphobic right-winger.
I know exactly what I support and what is reasonable and what is nothing more than an abuse of sympathy to trans people to rob cis females of their medals.
oh I am totally and utterly against that too, I find it's a form of extremely irresponsible parenting. That permanently damages their body's development based on what could be a delusion or phase of a developing confused mind that can't legally consent yet.
It's intriguing how you choose to forget trans individuals who begin hormone replacement therapy early enough into puberty to the point your claims make no sense, but here's some sources for you anyways since you seem to have forgotten to use any yourself.
1. Bone density varies vastly more on race than gender https://www.salon.com/2013/06/30/debunking_unfair_advantage_myths_about_trans_athletes_partner/
2. You say 'lower testosterone than they used to have' to describe an MtF transition, which is innacurate since the entire purpose of anti-androgens is to completely block the vast majority of testosterone production and replace it with estradiol. Sources about HRT here (https://transcare.ucsf.edu/guidelines/feminizing-hormone-therapy and https://www.drugs.com/mcp/feminizing-hormone-therapy)
3. Sports Med in 2017 research paper reviewing competitve policy regarding transgender people https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357259/
Moreover, allow me to directly quote from the 3rd links conclusion section in the abstract:
"Currently, there is no direct or consistent research suggesting transgender female individuals (or male individuals) have an athletic advantage at any stage of their transition (e.g. cross-sex hormones, gender-confirming surgery) and, therefore, competitive sport policies that place restrictions on transgender people need to be considered and potentially revised."
I have real life promises and responsibilities that both interest me more and even matter more.
I also have other hobbies than wasting huge effort and time on 30k per round just to realise nobody votes or if they do, votes based on BS.
If you were curious how obviously wrong you are on this topic, read what Bones wrote and research how consistently male-sex individuals who spent puberty and adult years gaining bone density, muscle mass and generally big built etc perform even with lower testosterone than they used to have.
Interesting how you made the same claim in our debate and I've yet to see you actually rebuke my argument against it. You're bad at keepin' your promises.
Unfortunately, that's a question I cannot answer. It's best left up to experts to review data (which I don't believe exists in abundance yet) regarding muscle-fat distributions, lactate threshold, rate of muscle gain, etc... to decide that and for policy changes to follow. However, as a general answer, the majority of effects from Hormone Replacement Therapy(HRT), excluding the use of progesterone (an optional supplement to anti-androgens and estradiol which anecdotal evidence suggests may increase breast maximum growth, but has potential side effects [the use of which also lacks data]), will come no later than 5 years after the beginning of treatment on average. Certain aspects can reach their maximum no later than 2 years on average (ex: breast growth).
You can find more information about HRT here:
https://transcare.ucsf.edu/guidelines/feminizing-hormone-therapy
https://www.drugs.com/mcp/feminizing-hormone-therapy
How much time should trans females go through hormone therapy? I don’t know too much about this.
Fallon Fox broke a part of her opponent's skull in the women's UFC, yes. What you leave out is that a) injuries to sections of the skull are not an uncommon occurrence in MMA[1][2][3], b) her cisgender colleagues have, at times, outperformed her[2] and, the image I believe you're referencing came from a fight that did not even involve Fallon Fox and occurred years after her last fight[3], and c) I in no way endorse trans women who just came out be given the right to immediately compete at the PROFESSIONAL level, since that is obviously unfair. I believe that after years of hormone therapy, at which point a person's muscle-fat distribution and hormones have changed to a level that could be seen in a cisgender female (and often is with women at the professional level of any sport), that is when I believe it is not an unfair advantage[4]. I'll leave it to later in this debate to go further in depth.
Sources:
1: "Incidence of Injury in Professional MMA Competitions" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3863915/
2: "Finding the truth about transgender athletes in women's sports" https://www.outsports.com/2021/2/22/22296155/fallon-fox-trans-mma-fighter-lie-inclusion-misleading
3: "Social media posts mislead about transgender MMA fighter's injuries to opponents" https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/mar/16/facebook-posts/social-media-posts-mislead-about-transgender-mma-f/
4: "Debunking "Unfair Advantage" Myths About Trans Athletes" https://www.salon.com/2013/06/30/debunking_unfair_advantage_myths_about_trans_athletes_partner/
He ain't capping. There's a reason Fallon Fox broke his opponent's skull in the women UFC. Literally. Tamika Brents had her brain dribbling out of her nose after that fight.
If there were clown emojis on this website, I would use them right now.
Anyone who is Con to this topic doesn't give the slightest shit about female-sex athletes and their achievements.
I like to think that I am, haha. I'm happy to have the chance to have a discussion such as this one!
I am happy a trans person accepted this debate. It makes me feel, you may be more knowledgeable about the subject than an average opponent would be
I respect you for bringing that up. Intersex people are a very important thing to consider in debate such as this one.
The REAL question is: What happens if an intersex person suddenly becomes fit and decides to join a sport?
I live on the east coast. Travelling to Missouri takes roughly 2 days worth of travel by car. Trans track meets can take place on the weekends so the competitors can leave Friday, spend Saturday and early Sunday travelling, compete Sunday, spend Monday coming back and they resume activities on Tuesday or Wednesday.