Trump is not Racist: Change my Mind
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
After 7 votes and with 33 points ahead, the winner is...
- Publication date
- Last updated date
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- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- One week
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
BoP is on con to prove Trump is racist, in present day, using examples from around 10 years ago, give or take. At least a couple of racist things are required to prove Trump is racist. I will pass on the first round. My opponent will pass on his last round. Good luck.
Raciism- Thinking one is superior to another race; discriminating against another race in a way that implies one is superior to another race.
OBJECTION: Wrong part of speech. The resolution claims “racist,” an adjective but PRO defines “racism”, a noun.
OBJECTION: Misspelled
OBJECTION: Instigator traditionally defines terms
OBJECTION: CON prefers a definition that is both more authoritative and specific to resolution than PRO’s customized definition.
Racism (noun) is the (1) “Belief in distinct human races, and that they have different inherent attributes or abilities, and generally that some are superior and others inferior.” or (2) “The policy, practice or (e.g. government or political) program of promoting this belief and promoting the dominance of one race over others.” [2]
Race is “A group of sentient beings, particularly people, distinguished by common ancestry, heritage or characteristics.” [3]
Trump is “the 45th and current president of the United States. [4]
- Is Anybody Entirely "Not Racist?"
- Birtherism
"[Obama] came out of nowhere. In fact, I'll take it even further: The people who went to school with him, they never saw him. They don't know who he is. It's crazy."
“The table indicates that birtherism is nonexistent among those in the six lowest six categories of racial resentment. After that, however, birtherism rises rapidly with increasingly levels of racial resentment. In fact, half of all birthers are located in the three highest categories of racial resentment, compared to only 22 percent of the total population.”
“If simple ignorance were the primary reason for birtherism, levels of birtherism should not have increased again after the release of President Obama’s birth certificate. Instead, they rose and as mentioned previously, they are as high as ever....In particular, when public figures made statements questioning President Obama’s birth certificate, levels of birtherism increased.” [10]
- The Wall
“I would build a great wall, and nobody builds walls better than me, believe me, and I’ll build them very inexpensively, I will build a great, great wall on our southern border. And I will have Mexico pay for that wall.” [11]
“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best.... They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists.”
“The essentialists inside the wall consider themselves defenders of American values and economic opportunities. The pluralists on the other side of the wall are enemies who disrupt American way of life and invaders who take away American jobs, and make the country “un-American,” euphoric term of “un-white.” The Trump Wall will be built on the US-Mexico border, a battleground where a black-and-white scheme places everyone in an “us-or-them” position. Such a dichotomous scheme energizes the populist supporters of the Trump Wall and boxes more than half of the population into the category of the less American or simply the un-American. “Americans” and “un-Americans” confront each other as adversaries.” [13]
“The border city of El Paso, Texas, used to have extremely high rates of violent crime — one of the highest in the entire country, and considered one of our nation’s most dangerous cities,” Trump said last Tuesday during his annual address. “Now, immediately upon its building, with a powerful barrier in place, El Paso is one of the safest cities in our country.” [14]
“Crime data shows that El Paso has not been one of the most dangerous cities in the nation.From 1985 to 2014, El Paso’s violent crime rate was significantly lower than the average for cities of comparable size. Border authorities added fencing in the El Paso region in the late 2000s. In the immediate years before and after construction, the violent crime rate went up, contrary to Trump’s claim.” [15]
”I mean, when you have 15,000 people marching up and you have hundreds and hundreds of people and you have two or three border security... how do you stop these people? You can’t.”At this point an audience member shouted“shoot them!”Trump responded by laughing and stating, “That’s only in the Panhandle you can get away with that statement.” In response, the audience cheered.” [16]
“This attack is a response to the Hispanic invasion of Texas. They are the instigators, not me. I am simply defending my country from cultural and ethnic replacement brought on by an invasion." [17]
[2] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/racism
[3] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/race
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump
[5]https://www.researchgate.net/publication/313321449_Older_but_not_younger_infants_associate_own-race_faces_with_happy_music_and_other-race_faces_with_sad_music
[6] http://www.rachelwu.com/Xiao_et_al-2017-Child_Development.pdf
[7]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahatma_Gandhi#Civil_rights_activist_in_South_Africa_(1893–1914)
[8]https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/feb/14/donald-trump/donald-trump-says-people-who-went-school-obama-nev/
[9]https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-oreilly-spar-over-birther-issue/
[10]http://www.wpsanet.org/papers/docs/Birthers.pdf
[11]https://time.com/3923128/donald-trump-announcement-speech/
[12]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_wall
[13]https://csalateral.org/issue/6-2/trump-wall-cultural-war-yang/
[14]https://time.com/5522904/donald-trump-el-paso-wall/
[15]https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2019/feb/08/donald-trump/no-border-barrier-did-not-drive-down-crime-el-paso/
[16]https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-laugh-immigrants-shot/
PRO has offered one definition to which CON objects on several grounds.
OBJECTION: Wrong part of speech. The resolution claims “racist,” an adjective but PRO defines “racism”, a noun.
OBJECTION: Misspelled
OBJECTION: CON prefers a definition that is both more authoritative and specific to resolution than PRO’s customized definition.
Is Anybody Entirely "Not Racist?"
Politifact rated the claim “Pants on Fire”- a complete and deliberate lie.
Bill O’Reilly was skeptical that Trump even believed his own accusations. [9]
However, the staying power of birtherism is in that it conflates a number of popular racist folk tales- that a successful black man in America can’t be legitimate, that blacks are secretly Muslims, that illegal immigrants are taking good jobs from even the highest echelons. The birth certificate itself was entirely beside the point.
“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best.... They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists.”
Simply building the wall or giving up on the project would either way cause the emblem of wall building to recede from the polarizing conversation within the electorate- and for Trump, that polarization along racial fault lines is the primary goal, not any actual construction.
“The border city of El Paso, Texas, used to have extremely high rates of violent crime — one of the highest in the entire country, and considered one of our nation’s most dangerous cities,” Trump said last Tuesday during his annual address. “Now, immediately upon its building, with a powerful barrier in place, El Paso is one of the safest cities in our country.” [14]
”I mean, when you have 15,000 people marching up and you have hundreds and hundreds of people and you have two or three border security... how do you stop these people? You can’t.”At this point an audience member shouted“shoot them!”Trump responded by laughing and stating, “That’s only in the Panhandle you can get away with that statement.” In response, the audience cheered.” [16]
Three months later, one of Trump’s “energized populists” traveled to El Paso to take arms in the battle laid out by Trump’s rhetoric; shooting into a crowded Walmart, killing 22 and injuring another 24. Posting just before the attack, the shooter wrote:“This attack is a response to the Hispanic invasion of Texas. They are the instigators, not me. I am simply defending my country from cultural and ethnic replacement brought on by an invasion." [17]
- PRO asked CON to instigate- therefore PRO should be at liberty to define terms.
- A proper definition ought to employ the same usage as the resolution. We are debating whether an adjective applies to subject: why is PRO defining nouns related to the adjective rather than the adjective itself?
- CON is citing on-point, specific definitions linked to a popular, well-edited source, Wiktionary. PRO invented his own customized but sloppy definition.
"Perhaps this makes sense."
"First, these narratives provide a glimpse into how a specific ideal type of “hegemonic whiteness” aligns with authentic citizenship. This ideal may become reifiedthrough narrative practices that emphasize inter-racial boundaries of whites versus potent nonwhite symbols (e.g.: Obama) and intra-racial white distinctions of proper and deficient forms of whiteness. These boundaries help to create and/or maintain white racial cohesion in two main ways:“(1) through positioning those marked as ‘white’ as essentially different from and superior to those marked as ‘non-white’, and(2) through marginalizing practices of ‘being white’ that fail to exemplify dominant ideals”.Such meaning-making processes are neither abstract ideals that float above actors’ heads nor functionalist mechanisms that operate within the black box of the mind to ensure white racial cohesion. Rather, these boundaries operate as socially shared rules that constitute a system of racial classification that help guide the pursuit of interests, the formation of identities, and the drama of interaction. The above Birther narratives indicate how moral concepts synthesize with inter- and intra-racial distinctions to mark hard work, honesty, and responsibility (and ultimately authentic citizenship) as the exclusive and essentialist domain of certain racializedfactions. These boundaries are the product of different political, cultural, and social traditions that created whiteness as an ongoing crisis. Today, whiteness qua true US citizenship is reforming and realigning—both in terms of recent legal maneuvers and the informal sense of belonging—with Nativist, xenophobic, Christian, embattled working-class, and hyper-masculine practices that stake claim to objectivity, morality, and truth. [2] [bold emphasis mine]
"Trump has also admitted since then that Obama was in fact born in the U.S. I believe his birth certificate is fake."
- CON submits PRO's own words as another example why Trump perpetrated the birther lie to begin with- the truth quickly ceased to be relevant to the claim's racist resonance.
"At the heart of Trump’s latest criticism Sunday is the same ugly nut of the birther movement: a suspicion that people of color, and especially Americans from immigrant families, are somehow less authentically American. It's a conspiracy theory that can be traced further, too, finding its roots as far back as mid-19th century nativism and the idea that immigrants—and their children—cannot have the interests of so-called "native" Americans in mind." [3]
- Pro asserts that referring to Mexico's people collectively as rapists is not inherently racist. Mainstream political scholarship thinks otherwise:
"Consider Trump's now infamous remarks about Mexican migrants: they're bringing drugs, they're bringing crime, they're rapists. In other words, they are a source of physical, moral, and sexual pollution of the radicalized body politic. What is the solution? Purification by... means of a 'big beautiful wall,' a protective skin that would seal off the Southern underbelly of the national body from renewed "infection." [4]
- PRO calls CON's speculation that Trump is postponing wall construction to preserve the issue as racist iconography in 2020 "bogus." Perhaps, but Trump just blew off yet another deadline tomorrow without explanation:
"The Department of Homeland of Security is delaying the construction of more than 40 miles of bollard wall along Arizona's southern border, according to an opposition brief filed late Tuesday by the Trump administration in a lawsuit challenging the wall. Construction was scheduled to begin August 22, but is now slated to begin in early October or later ...Why the administration decided to wait is unclear....A spokesperson for the Department of Defense did not immediately respond to a request for comment." [5]
- PRO fails to see how a white crowd laughing at the murder of 15,000 brown people on the border might be construed as racist.
- PRO fails to see how a subsequent mass shooting targeting brown people on the border might be received as alarming to peace-loving people.
- The President of the United States is the United States' first diplomat as well as the Commander-in-Chief of the United States Armed Forces. When that Commander identifies an enemy target and laughs approvingly at the suggestion of violent response then that official has extended a certain degree of tacit approval for that violent response on behalf of the US and in spite of the lack of official process.
- Wikipedia reports that the El Paso shooter's manifesto
"promotes the white nationalist and far-right conspiracy theory of The Great Replacement." [6]
- The Guardian reports that "the Institute for Strategic Dialogue , a UK-based counter-extremist organisation, has found that the once-obscure ideology has moved into mainstream politics and is now referenced by figures including US president Donald Trump" who the ISD now lists as one of top ten propagators of the ideology. [7]
- Most analysts have little trouble calling Great Replacement theory racist propaganda when it inspires the shooters at Christchurch and El Paso. Why should the theory's most influential promulgators, such as Trump, enjoy immunity from the same accusation?
Concession
Concession.... -_-
C
Concession
Concession. Skimmed a little, in R2 pro failed to adequately refute the birthism conspiracy theory as racially motivated; personally not liking the sources, doesn't weaken their credibility (for the politifact one for example, countering it with another fact check website that verifies Trump either didn't do it or didn't lie... if he's not racist and this is all made up, it should be easy to find).
Concession
Concession
He's prolly going to win on some resolution sheet
No, you should have stated that by this logic: bla bla bla
We already know CNN is shit with gay pedophile Bryan Stelter and crappy cuomo
I was going to, but he would just say the topic is Trump so the Dayton shooter is irrelevant
funny how fake news cnn completely ignored the dayton's motives but pounded El paso dude--unbiased don le-mon and fredo cuomo
not bad for a hiatus, though your not going to win sorry.
You should have pounded that the Dayton shooter was a Elizabeth Warren supporter and a rachel maddow fan and confessed that's where he got his far left radicalness, that would have pushed the offense to oromagi,a progressive
What you think?
"all i have to prove is trump's NOT NOT racist, so as long as he's 2% racist I win the resolution"
I know right!, glad I'm not the only one who despises this shit
fitting lol, he's like OBJECTION: MISPELLED RACISM like ok bro
Oh yeah we call him the sweatbag
:D always
Yeah, at least you debate honestly with me.
YOU'RE BACK YAY
I love people who debate to win and use semantics, other than to actual have a productive discussion.
oh no the sweat went off, retreat to bunker 56
Yes, it doesn't mean it's false research but the ulterior motive causes a credibility problem. Navigating studies to find the true facts is difficult and a lot of work. Never did the work so I really don't know what's going on, and TBH I'm too lazy to find out.
Looks as though they may have ulterior motives, but that doesn't mean that their research is necessarily false. If Wikipedia can be trusted, they seem like a-holes.
I will look into the Pioneer Fund, but I haven't known the SPLC to ever tell the truth.
There's money funding the studies. Sometimes that money is coming from racists. See, e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Fund https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/richard-lynn etc. Compare this to the situation with tobacco studies, where the tobacco industry actively funded bogus studies. There's a similar situation going on with climate change and energy companies.
Also, could you elaborate more on how the bell curve plays into this and "biases and conflicts of interest"?
My stance is that there is a genetic aspect and that it correlates with race. I don't intend on making sweeping conclusions. There are smart and dumb people of every race, but the relative success of certain regions of the world gives basis to my claims. Also, the effects of the Flynn Effect were considered when calculating IQ for the Minnesota study.
I think that environment is also a big factor. Poor people generally have a lower IQ. People raised in richer countries also have higher IQ than their birth country's average. I believe that some countries/people may be poor because of low IQ, but they need to do more research on that hypothesis of mine.
Yes, but the Flynn effect suggests significant environmental factors are at play, and the IQ data you're referring to from multiple countries is probably coming from the Bell Curve etc., the proponents of which have biases and conflicts of interest. The Minnesota study does suggest a heridtary component and perhaps warrants further study, but it's not very conclusive because of the age of the children at adoption. Environmental factors which have substantial impacts weren't controlled for (e.g. pre-natal nutrition, breast feeding, etc).
The fact that IQ scores vary widely based on region. Eastern Asians have highest IQ, then Europe/America(America's has gone down with all of the immigration), and African countries tend to have very low IQ averages.
Also, the Minnesota Transracial Adoption study, which had kids of different races adopted by upper-middle class white families.
Yes, I agree oro will win. This is what I meant.
fist debate back and it's already controversial
orogami is a great debater so if orogami is who I think he is, he is not losing.
Isaiah 32
The vile person shall be no more called liberal, nor the churl said to be bountiful.
6 For the vile person will speak villany, and his heart will work iniquity, to practise hypocrisy, and to utter error against the LORD, to make empty the soul of the hungry, and he will cause the drink of the thirsty to fail.
7 The instruments also of the churl are evil: he deviseth wicked devices to destroy the poor* with lying words, even when the needy speaketh right.
8 But the liberal deviseth liberal things; and by liberal things shall he stand.
9 Rise up, ye women that are at ease; hear my voice, ye careless daughters; give ear unto my speech.
careless daughters; give ear unto my speech.
10 Many days and years shall ye be troubled, ye careless women: for the vintage shall fail, the gathering shall not come.
11 Tremble, ye women that are at ease; be troubled, ye careless ones: strip you, and make you bare, and gird sackcloth upon your loins.
12 They shall lament for the teats, for the pleasant fields, for the fruitful vine.
13 Upon the land of my people shall come up thorns and briers; yea, upon all the houses of joy in the joyous city:
https://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/isaiah/32.html
i Believe He is clearly talking about modern liberals. I don't think liberals 3000 years ago were for woman's rights. so it is interesting that he sorta says don't go to liberals for help woman. come to me. Isiah was a prophet who foretold the future. He is talking about modern liberals
i believe god has blinded liberals to the obvious/truth to speed up the end times. Its why i don't usually talk politics. If your a liberal you have no idea what i am talking about
No one voted based on the topic. Half of the rounds were about the rules and that's why people voted against me. Nice that u cherry pick the debate tho
Do you possess hard evidence that those generalities are partially dictated by a genetic component which cannot be solely explained by a social component?
It's true that you argued over the rules, but the rules weren't the only thing you argued . You debated the topic in both debates.
There has been one actual debate on the subject. The one with death was over rules.
2 have gone against me. Considering pinkfreud didn't get my sarcasm in that debate, he actually proved my point against the argument of speedrace. The only real vote has been ramshutu. 2 votes isn't a good sample size.
Out of the 7 votes for arguments on the prior debates, only 1 has been in his favor. I'm content to watch him lose again.
Still at what? I do all kinds of debates.
oh i just saw "by god"? What does that even mean they r blinded by god lol
Thanks everyone for the welcome back wishes, I was only gone for like 2 months lol
For sure.
yeah he's back!
Would you consider me racist if I thought it was partially genetics and partially culture/upbringing?
I should have phrased my comment differently. It's certainly true that there are proven generalities about races (i.e. Asians have a higher IQ score, black people are more likely to commit crimes, etc). However, what matters is why you believe those generalities exist. They exist because of culture and upbringing, not because one race is smarter than the other or is more criminal than the other.
If you believe that these generalities exist solely because different races have different genetics, then I think you are a racist. That's the definition of the term. Now, whether racism is bad can be discussed elsewhere, (even though I believe racism is very bad). However, you should still admit that if you believe different generalities exist solely because of race and not culture or upbringing, you are a racist.
You mean statistically provable generalities about races?
Welcome back!
Best of luck!
*Can't believe you took this debate from me*
*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM6EHcPFKCQ*
Still at this?
Guess you are too far gone.
Welcome back, boat
I believe that liberals have been blinded by god. Do you agree with this
Wouldn't you also agree that racism is the belief that certain races have different characteristics (i.e. "Asians are smarter", "blacks commit more crime", etc)?