Trump is not Racist: Change my Mind
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
After 7 votes and with 33 points ahead, the winner is...
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- One week
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
BoP is on con to prove Trump is racist, in present day, using examples from around 10 years ago, give or take. At least a couple of racist things are required to prove Trump is racist. I will pass on the first round. My opponent will pass on his last round. Good luck.
Raciism- Thinking one is superior to another race; discriminating against another race in a way that implies one is superior to another race.
OBJECTION: Wrong part of speech. The resolution claims “racist,” an adjective but PRO defines “racism”, a noun.
OBJECTION: Misspelled
OBJECTION: Instigator traditionally defines terms
OBJECTION: CON prefers a definition that is both more authoritative and specific to resolution than PRO’s customized definition.
Racism (noun) is the (1) “Belief in distinct human races, and that they have different inherent attributes or abilities, and generally that some are superior and others inferior.” or (2) “The policy, practice or (e.g. government or political) program of promoting this belief and promoting the dominance of one race over others.” [2]
Race is “A group of sentient beings, particularly people, distinguished by common ancestry, heritage or characteristics.” [3]
Trump is “the 45th and current president of the United States. [4]
- Is Anybody Entirely "Not Racist?"
- Birtherism
"[Obama] came out of nowhere. In fact, I'll take it even further: The people who went to school with him, they never saw him. They don't know who he is. It's crazy."
“The table indicates that birtherism is nonexistent among those in the six lowest six categories of racial resentment. After that, however, birtherism rises rapidly with increasingly levels of racial resentment. In fact, half of all birthers are located in the three highest categories of racial resentment, compared to only 22 percent of the total population.”
“If simple ignorance were the primary reason for birtherism, levels of birtherism should not have increased again after the release of President Obama’s birth certificate. Instead, they rose and as mentioned previously, they are as high as ever....In particular, when public figures made statements questioning President Obama’s birth certificate, levels of birtherism increased.” [10]
- The Wall
“I would build a great wall, and nobody builds walls better than me, believe me, and I’ll build them very inexpensively, I will build a great, great wall on our southern border. And I will have Mexico pay for that wall.” [11]
“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best.... They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists.”
“The essentialists inside the wall consider themselves defenders of American values and economic opportunities. The pluralists on the other side of the wall are enemies who disrupt American way of life and invaders who take away American jobs, and make the country “un-American,” euphoric term of “un-white.” The Trump Wall will be built on the US-Mexico border, a battleground where a black-and-white scheme places everyone in an “us-or-them” position. Such a dichotomous scheme energizes the populist supporters of the Trump Wall and boxes more than half of the population into the category of the less American or simply the un-American. “Americans” and “un-Americans” confront each other as adversaries.” [13]
“The border city of El Paso, Texas, used to have extremely high rates of violent crime — one of the highest in the entire country, and considered one of our nation’s most dangerous cities,” Trump said last Tuesday during his annual address. “Now, immediately upon its building, with a powerful barrier in place, El Paso is one of the safest cities in our country.” [14]
“Crime data shows that El Paso has not been one of the most dangerous cities in the nation.From 1985 to 2014, El Paso’s violent crime rate was significantly lower than the average for cities of comparable size. Border authorities added fencing in the El Paso region in the late 2000s. In the immediate years before and after construction, the violent crime rate went up, contrary to Trump’s claim.” [15]
”I mean, when you have 15,000 people marching up and you have hundreds and hundreds of people and you have two or three border security... how do you stop these people? You can’t.”At this point an audience member shouted“shoot them!”Trump responded by laughing and stating, “That’s only in the Panhandle you can get away with that statement.” In response, the audience cheered.” [16]
“This attack is a response to the Hispanic invasion of Texas. They are the instigators, not me. I am simply defending my country from cultural and ethnic replacement brought on by an invasion." [17]
[2] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/racism
[3] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/race
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump
[5]https://www.researchgate.net/publication/313321449_Older_but_not_younger_infants_associate_own-race_faces_with_happy_music_and_other-race_faces_with_sad_music
[6] http://www.rachelwu.com/Xiao_et_al-2017-Child_Development.pdf
[7]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahatma_Gandhi#Civil_rights_activist_in_South_Africa_(1893–1914)
[8]https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/feb/14/donald-trump/donald-trump-says-people-who-went-school-obama-nev/
[9]https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-oreilly-spar-over-birther-issue/
[10]http://www.wpsanet.org/papers/docs/Birthers.pdf
[11]https://time.com/3923128/donald-trump-announcement-speech/
[12]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_wall
[13]https://csalateral.org/issue/6-2/trump-wall-cultural-war-yang/
[14]https://time.com/5522904/donald-trump-el-paso-wall/
[15]https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2019/feb/08/donald-trump/no-border-barrier-did-not-drive-down-crime-el-paso/
[16]https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-laugh-immigrants-shot/
PRO has offered one definition to which CON objects on several grounds.
OBJECTION: Wrong part of speech. The resolution claims “racist,” an adjective but PRO defines “racism”, a noun.
OBJECTION: Misspelled
OBJECTION: CON prefers a definition that is both more authoritative and specific to resolution than PRO’s customized definition.
Is Anybody Entirely "Not Racist?"
Politifact rated the claim “Pants on Fire”- a complete and deliberate lie.
Bill O’Reilly was skeptical that Trump even believed his own accusations. [9]
However, the staying power of birtherism is in that it conflates a number of popular racist folk tales- that a successful black man in America can’t be legitimate, that blacks are secretly Muslims, that illegal immigrants are taking good jobs from even the highest echelons. The birth certificate itself was entirely beside the point.
“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best.... They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists.”
Simply building the wall or giving up on the project would either way cause the emblem of wall building to recede from the polarizing conversation within the electorate- and for Trump, that polarization along racial fault lines is the primary goal, not any actual construction.
“The border city of El Paso, Texas, used to have extremely high rates of violent crime — one of the highest in the entire country, and considered one of our nation’s most dangerous cities,” Trump said last Tuesday during his annual address. “Now, immediately upon its building, with a powerful barrier in place, El Paso is one of the safest cities in our country.” [14]
”I mean, when you have 15,000 people marching up and you have hundreds and hundreds of people and you have two or three border security... how do you stop these people? You can’t.”At this point an audience member shouted“shoot them!”Trump responded by laughing and stating, “That’s only in the Panhandle you can get away with that statement.” In response, the audience cheered.” [16]
Three months later, one of Trump’s “energized populists” traveled to El Paso to take arms in the battle laid out by Trump’s rhetoric; shooting into a crowded Walmart, killing 22 and injuring another 24. Posting just before the attack, the shooter wrote:“This attack is a response to the Hispanic invasion of Texas. They are the instigators, not me. I am simply defending my country from cultural and ethnic replacement brought on by an invasion." [17]
- PRO asked CON to instigate- therefore PRO should be at liberty to define terms.
- A proper definition ought to employ the same usage as the resolution. We are debating whether an adjective applies to subject: why is PRO defining nouns related to the adjective rather than the adjective itself?
- CON is citing on-point, specific definitions linked to a popular, well-edited source, Wiktionary. PRO invented his own customized but sloppy definition.
"Perhaps this makes sense."
"First, these narratives provide a glimpse into how a specific ideal type of “hegemonic whiteness” aligns with authentic citizenship. This ideal may become reifiedthrough narrative practices that emphasize inter-racial boundaries of whites versus potent nonwhite symbols (e.g.: Obama) and intra-racial white distinctions of proper and deficient forms of whiteness. These boundaries help to create and/or maintain white racial cohesion in two main ways:“(1) through positioning those marked as ‘white’ as essentially different from and superior to those marked as ‘non-white’, and(2) through marginalizing practices of ‘being white’ that fail to exemplify dominant ideals”.Such meaning-making processes are neither abstract ideals that float above actors’ heads nor functionalist mechanisms that operate within the black box of the mind to ensure white racial cohesion. Rather, these boundaries operate as socially shared rules that constitute a system of racial classification that help guide the pursuit of interests, the formation of identities, and the drama of interaction. The above Birther narratives indicate how moral concepts synthesize with inter- and intra-racial distinctions to mark hard work, honesty, and responsibility (and ultimately authentic citizenship) as the exclusive and essentialist domain of certain racializedfactions. These boundaries are the product of different political, cultural, and social traditions that created whiteness as an ongoing crisis. Today, whiteness qua true US citizenship is reforming and realigning—both in terms of recent legal maneuvers and the informal sense of belonging—with Nativist, xenophobic, Christian, embattled working-class, and hyper-masculine practices that stake claim to objectivity, morality, and truth. [2] [bold emphasis mine]
"Trump has also admitted since then that Obama was in fact born in the U.S. I believe his birth certificate is fake."
- CON submits PRO's own words as another example why Trump perpetrated the birther lie to begin with- the truth quickly ceased to be relevant to the claim's racist resonance.
"At the heart of Trump’s latest criticism Sunday is the same ugly nut of the birther movement: a suspicion that people of color, and especially Americans from immigrant families, are somehow less authentically American. It's a conspiracy theory that can be traced further, too, finding its roots as far back as mid-19th century nativism and the idea that immigrants—and their children—cannot have the interests of so-called "native" Americans in mind." [3]
- Pro asserts that referring to Mexico's people collectively as rapists is not inherently racist. Mainstream political scholarship thinks otherwise:
"Consider Trump's now infamous remarks about Mexican migrants: they're bringing drugs, they're bringing crime, they're rapists. In other words, they are a source of physical, moral, and sexual pollution of the radicalized body politic. What is the solution? Purification by... means of a 'big beautiful wall,' a protective skin that would seal off the Southern underbelly of the national body from renewed "infection." [4]
- PRO calls CON's speculation that Trump is postponing wall construction to preserve the issue as racist iconography in 2020 "bogus." Perhaps, but Trump just blew off yet another deadline tomorrow without explanation:
"The Department of Homeland of Security is delaying the construction of more than 40 miles of bollard wall along Arizona's southern border, according to an opposition brief filed late Tuesday by the Trump administration in a lawsuit challenging the wall. Construction was scheduled to begin August 22, but is now slated to begin in early October or later ...Why the administration decided to wait is unclear....A spokesperson for the Department of Defense did not immediately respond to a request for comment." [5]
- PRO fails to see how a white crowd laughing at the murder of 15,000 brown people on the border might be construed as racist.
- PRO fails to see how a subsequent mass shooting targeting brown people on the border might be received as alarming to peace-loving people.
- The President of the United States is the United States' first diplomat as well as the Commander-in-Chief of the United States Armed Forces. When that Commander identifies an enemy target and laughs approvingly at the suggestion of violent response then that official has extended a certain degree of tacit approval for that violent response on behalf of the US and in spite of the lack of official process.
- Wikipedia reports that the El Paso shooter's manifesto
"promotes the white nationalist and far-right conspiracy theory of The Great Replacement." [6]
- The Guardian reports that "the Institute for Strategic Dialogue , a UK-based counter-extremist organisation, has found that the once-obscure ideology has moved into mainstream politics and is now referenced by figures including US president Donald Trump" who the ISD now lists as one of top ten propagators of the ideology. [7]
- Most analysts have little trouble calling Great Replacement theory racist propaganda when it inspires the shooters at Christchurch and El Paso. Why should the theory's most influential promulgators, such as Trump, enjoy immunity from the same accusation?
Concession
Concession.... -_-
C
Concession
Concession. Skimmed a little, in R2 pro failed to adequately refute the birthism conspiracy theory as racially motivated; personally not liking the sources, doesn't weaken their credibility (for the politifact one for example, countering it with another fact check website that verifies Trump either didn't do it or didn't lie... if he's not racist and this is all made up, it should be easy to find).
Concession
Concession
" Finally, you can get creative by abusing exact wordings and phrases."
That's exactly what I'm against. I would love if people would have an actual discussion.
sure
There are several positives to actual debating rather than forum arguments though. You get tangible feedback which can help you improve. There's a definite end to a debate whereas forum posts can sprawl on for ages. Finally, you can get creative by abusing exact wordings and phrases
yup
"Triggered right wingers shows more triggered right wingers."
wth the sentence structure doesnt make any sense its like liberal logic doesnt make any freakin sense
lmaoo
do you brain?
Guess you must be illiterate as well.
English please
Triggered right wingers shows more triggered right wingers. The irony.
I won that discussion, hands down. I am not triggered, and you cant say that when your a leftist, come on
Vape store meltdown-https://www.newsflare.com/video/266558/politics-business/meltdown-us-vape-shop-worker-refuses-to-serve-customer-wearing-trump-cap
Ultimate metldown!!!-https://nypost.com/2016/11/11/scenes-from-the-liberal-meltdown/
Forums are more laid back and better, debates have time limits I don't enjoy
>>he doesn't know what he's talking about. Both sides of the political spectrum are NOT right!, they just diagree,
We had that discussion. I won. You lost. Don't get triggered that you are intellectually incapable. If you felt so strongly on this subject why not debate me? You sit on the forum threads not accepting debates so I'll take that as a no to the challenge. Come back to me when you actually want to defend your case.
he doesn't know what he's talking about. Both sides of the political spectrum are NOT right!, they just diagree, I have been trying to explain this to omar for months, but his feeble mind doesn't comprehend!!!!!!!
>>Your truth. Not the truth.
Contradiction. You need help if you don't know that.
>>"you are doomed until you actually test your views and are open minded to the other side." lmaooo coming from omar 😂😂😂
Do I have to tell you my personal experiences for me to be taken seriously or are you just using pretty much using anything to attack me? Is this is the best you got?
"you are doomed until you actually test your views and are open minded to the other side." lmaooo coming from omar 😂😂😂
Your truth. Not the truth.
I don't see that. I see you realizing you can't handle orogami so you quit. If you seriously are not like that then you are hopeless. I blame your parents but when your old enough I think I blame you for your shortcomings but I'll still feel bad about it. I guess what you could do is learn the basics of formulating an argument like pretty much go through school and complete English but there might be a case where you are indoctrinated into a Religious school so guess you are doomed until you actually test your views and are open minded to the other side. Going to be difficult. You might never change given your circumstance but it is still worth doing. Oh yeah a positive for your current you is that if you find out, given the improved way of arguing, they are wrong. You can now use that in your debates or something.
I've debated over 100 times, I can defend my position without a shadow of a doubt. Like I said, I don't have the time nor the stamina right now to debate. Its ok, you can have your truth.
On the other hand, you are so right. Every time a radical leftist rebuts my point and sources the Washington Post fact checker I get red in the face and so stresed out.
Don't get annoyed when people find flaws in your arguments.
Get annoyed you still take that position even though you can't defend it, get stressed out and concede.
Ok I gotcha
haha true
i will debate at a later time, this stuff takes a lot of time and honestly it kinda bores me sometimes especially when people are semantical and sweaty n stuff like forgot the freakin bop and specific defintions n stuff just debate and have a discussion you know it just gets on my nerves
well he was doomed when we misspelled racism
rip
I'm sad to see this debate turn into a concession. Our_Boat_Is_Right, had a lot of hard facts, that very nearly convinced me.
You're calling leftists on this site radical and unrational when you're the same person making personal attacks for no reason and label all of the top-ranking leftists as "bias"
Which is funny considering these same leftists vote fairly and are free from bias for the most part.
After all wylted crushed me in a debate fair and square and these radical leftists you're trashing on all voted against me. Including orogami and ramshutu.
Not to mention alec who's last time I checked in the top 10 and has been regarded as one of the best debaters on the website.
Concession? Sad
You have no evidence, only conjecture and personal attacks. You can do better than that, can't you? Don't disappoint me.
Look at the calender.
It's a debatable subject and is just a desperate plea to play the race card when you know truly it is completetly irrelevant to the current day. Radical leftists are getting out of hand. I'm sorry you suffer from TDS, get well.
The subject I was referring to was the weight // evidentiary value of Trump's housing discrimination in the late 60's / early 70's which was the subject of the fair housing act complaint.
If you were capable of any logic, you would see I have evidence and rebuttals to claims. Just go to the speedrace debate, or the first round on this one.
You have no evidence supporting your position on this subject. That's a fact.
That is completely your opinion. If you want to vote cheaply, do so. It's not a surpise that most conservatives lose on this site considering 90% of voters are radical leftists who vote on their crazy logic bias.
Not really. Voting moderation policy is not to enforce rules that instigators make unless both of the debaters explicitly agree to them. Voters are free to disregard all of your rules. If your rule is stupid then don't be surprised if that happens. Your position that the housing case carries no weight is baseless. You have no evidence indicating that someone who was racist when he was in his 20s has zero impact on the probability of them being a racist when he was in his 70s.The housing case is relevant evidence. It merely carries less weight than it would if it had more recently. You want to see if he has changed since back then? Go look at his behavior back then and compare it with his behavior today. He hasn't changed in other respects. He's still a thin-skinned pompous liar, for example.
By accepting the debate you consent to the rules. Notice I said give or take 10 years, it was just a baseline.
Your example is 50 years old, it is not relevant to whether or not Trump is racist today, and even those housing claims are debatable.
In 2009, Trump changed to a republican from his liberal ideologies before. That is partly why I said 10 years.
Again it is your opinion that the rule is unjustifiable. You should vote given the rules and based on the actual debate content, not because you are personally salty and think Trump's arguable racism from 1965 carries over to 2019.
Now that is funny- reading Dickey for Miranda is funny but also I assumed there was some scene in Hamilton where someone was kept repeating "objection" which seems not only plausible but also some dim memory of "1776." Coupled with the misposts our incompetence is virtually resonating.
A Hamilton reference, a comment that I accidentally (but highly ironically) posted in this debate rather than another...
I take it that is a "Hamilton" reference which I regretfully admit to having not yet seen.
Trump was 27 years old at the time the housing case was filed. The housing case represented a pattern of racist and discriminatory housing practices that had been ongoing for years. Trump was working there since 1968 and the federal housing case was filed 5 years later.
The rules in your debate don't matter if you are not able to defend it or hope the other person complies. If they don't comply don't just rest on defending it. It won't help you win the debate because is worth almost nothing.
A single incident probably doesn't provide much insight, however a series of incidents spread over time can show a pattern of behaviour that can be used to form an inductive argument. Having an arbitrary cut-off point removes this avenue of argument. This is especially true for Trump, given that he has had a pervasive history of racist accusations levied against him that extends past the 10 year limit.
lmao ur so biased
Rules are rules, and it is not unfair to the other side because they are the ones who accepted it. That is completely your biased opinion. In my understanding, when someone claims Trump was racist when he was a teenager in 1960(cough), it carrys no weight to determine if Trump is a racist in 2019, and just causes more unnecessary debate which is a waste of time. That's why I made the rule.
Breaking debate rules doesn't always merit conduct points to the opposing side. If the rule isn't justifiable then voters may decide for themselves. In this case the rule is designed to unfairly exclude evidence damaging to Pro's position. Pro may argue that it was a long time ago. Incidents from long ago carry less weight because Trump may have changed during the interim period. Yet, it is not as though they carry no weight whatsoever. How much weight they carry, and evidence of whether or not Trump has changed, are issues which are fairly subject to debate. The fundamental purpose Pro's rule excluding that evidence is to give Pro an unfair advantage. Rules such as that have no place in debates and may warrant penalizing Pro's conduct.
Are you referring to death's comment or my debate round? I was just thanking death for trying to help me win, I understand conduct isn't all I need.
Thought you were doing Lin Manuel Miranda there...
If voters think orogami broke the rules then he will lose conduct point. Convincing argument point is worth higher so you need more than he doesn't follow my definition to win.
Yes, thank you for trying to help me win. You should probably read the description, it says in present day, as well as the resolution.
Feel free to re-use my work. Pro's 10 year rule is there because he's scared of it. There's no justification for Pro's rule.
Good and yes CNN is terrible, this guy absolutely tears them to shreds here-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8ryn7z-cp0
https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w-chapman/cnns-brian-stelter-loses-42-his-audience
CNN is thriving
I'll get it next round, plenty of them left, I need to split it up cuz I already put a lot of anti-racist quotes in there
laughed at "CNN is shit with gay pedophile Bryan Stelter" lmao