Instigator / Pro

Cogent_Cognizer

1518

rating

debates

60.0%

won

Topic

#1223

Would it improve or worsen the USA's economy to have most businesses worker-owned?

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Better arguments

Better sources

Better legibility

Better conduct

After 1 vote and with 5 points ahead, the winner is...

Cogent_Cognizer

Tags

Economics

Parameters

Publication date: 07.31.2019 10:57PM
Last updated date: 09.02.2019 06:15PM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 5
Time for argument: Three days
Max argument characters: 15,000
Voting period: Two weeks
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

RationalMadman

1702

rating

574

debates

67.86%

won

Description

The burden of proof is shared since both of us will be making a positive claim. I will argue an economy where the above should improve the American economy. Con will argue that, in such a situation, it will worsen it.

Definitions of terms I am proposing and that con accepts by accepting the debate:
Worker-owned company: A company in which the majority of common stocks, as opposed to preferred non-voting or common non-voting stocks, in the company are owned by the employees as a whole and they have some form of representation in major business decisions(with reasonable exceptions such as if a decision needs to be done quickly by a representative or president of the company).

Common, voting stocks: Stock options in a company in which risk is taken on the investment one has in the company but is typically very likely to change in price, they are also able to vote in certain business decisions normal stockholders would, such as voting for the board of directors and potential mergers.

Common, nonvoting stock: Same as the above, but with no voting powers in choosing the board of directors or mergers.

Preferred stock options: Often does not carry voting power(sometimes can, but given the other perks this gives, businesses do not often offer voting power with these) but does provide the buyer of these stocks with a much greater likelihood of a return than other normal stocks, since they are given a return at a higher priority than those with normal stock options. Often are not as volatile as common stock options, but can be again, depending on what the business is offering.

These definitions *should* be my own, but are definitely based on various definitions(too many to list probably) I've heard throughout my life.

For the definitions of "business", "economy" etc, we will use common definitions. The definitions of any other terms I will accept from my opponent automatically when presented in round 1 unless any are very unreasonable(i.e claiming "nice" means "a jerk" or something. We all know it doesn't). I would like to think I defined the above terms in a suitable way, though I recognize I may have left out or worded something improperly. If that's the case, my opponent should let me know IN THE COMMENTS, before accepting the debate so I may change the definitions if I agree with you that I somehow misrepresented these terms.

Since I think this debate will start off with me, I will just forego most of what round 1 is used for once someone has stated interest in accepting and there are no issue with what I've brought up. That said, here is the round structure:

Round 1: To be used for clearly stating you've read the rules and definitions in this debate. You may present definitions of terms you think will be important to present that I've not done so already. We will also clearly state our position, think of it as a thesis in a written paper. Our specific evidence and arguments, however, will be presented later. But you may (and should) state the contentions you plan on arguing, as one would do in a formal English paper's thesis. Leave it unsubstantiated for now though. The only thing I will do is state my thesis.

Round 2: We will offer opening arguments and attempt to refute the contentions our opponent listed in round 1 as well as start backing up our contentions in round one with evidence and logic. DO NOT specifically refute the logic, evidence, etc the other presents in this round: only the contentions/claims made in round 1. There should be some leniency, as it's possible for someone to refute a specific argument by coincidence(though it's doubtful it's a coincidence if someone refers to a specific article someone presents in this round). This will be up to voters to decide. The voters will award conduct points accordingly, as it would be a matter of conduct.

Round 3: Each of us will refute the specific logic and evidence the other brings up in round 2. We each can also still present new arguments and supporting evidence too.

Round 4: This round and round 5 are prohibited from presenting brand new positive claims supported by evidence or logic. This round is purely intended for refutation(negative arguments) of the positive claims one's opponent has made previously OR defending arguments you've yet to defend from your opponent's offensive on your points. If you feel you've done that already sufficiently, feel free to forego this round.

Round 5: Concluding remarks and closing statements. A proper closure would restate major points, point out why your points outweigh the opponent's, stuff like that. There should be no new arguments and no rebuttals. Rebuttal would be referring to presenting evidence/logic disproving what the opponent said. An argument, in this context, means to present logic/evidence in support of one's own proposition. Neither is allowed in this round. Only comparing and contrasting the pros and cons of each position is allowed.

Round 1

Cogent_Cognizer

08.03.2019 06:49PM

Pro

As stated in the rules for round 1, this will contain my "thesis":

Thesis:
Worker ownership would boost the US economy in the following ways: first, it would likely be followed by an increase in productivity and thus the GDP per capita of the nation, it would have an increase in consumption at the expense of investment, which I'll explain is needed and desired, and worker ownership would reduce the harm automation and shipping jobs overseas would do to the American worker.

RationalMadman

08.06.2019 06:36PM

Con

Outline of my case:

Impractical to hold this as superior to a system where many citizens invest in corporations whether or not they happen to work for that corporation.
Impractical and Immoral because insider trading is strongly prevented by clauses that ban you from investing in competition while also allowing workers to invest in the company's funds but banning them to pull out the shares due to any conceivable foreknowledge of an incoming slump based on their job title and the information that enabled them to access. Immoral would be in cases where this clause of the contract is removed to enable this to be a freer arrangement as it screws over a company for letting their workers own most of their shares/stocks.
There is no way at all to think the US would truly compete with the rest of the world if it stopped very rich groups (hedge-fund groups like the Vanguard Group and Black Rock) because these 'Illuminati' elite completely have so much control over the economy of the world as a whole so they'd move out of the country and drive it into a state of being impoverished by pressurising companies to trade less and less with the US until it caved in.
The system is already a corrupt selfish system because it assumes the best advice will come from those with the most money to lose and gain, as opposed to any kind of honest and genuine motive to steer the company/corporation in the right direction. Therefore, there's no point appealing to morality or high emotive ideals in this debate.

Round 2

Cogent_Cognizer

08.07.2019 06:32PM

Pro

First, I am arguing my contentions with relevant evidence supporting my positions, and I will argue against the contentions my opponent proposed in round 1, as permitted by the rules for round 2.

C1: Worker ownership of businesses would likely be followed with an increase of the GDP per capita of our nation.
As my primary and most convincing forms of evidence, I am presenting two meta-analyses(studies which compiled numerous studies on the topic, analyzed them for bias, and determined what the net trend these studies are indicating). The first meta-analysis here found "a small, but positive and statistically significant relation to firm performance (r= 0.04)" and employee ownership. In particular, it found the difference more significant in "different sampling designs (samples assessing change in performance pre-employee–post-employee ownership adoption or samples on firms with employee ownership)". In other words, when a business transfers from private ownership by people at the top of the business hierarchy, to more-or-less equal ownership among those at the top and the lowest employees, the difference was greater in terms of how well the business performs. It should be self-evidence that increasing firm performance ought to increase the GDP per capita but to address any concerns that this isn't quite a variable indicative of productivity, this second meta-analysis looks at productivity more specifically. This meta-analysis found that for three separate concepts related to employee ownership, namely, profit sharing, worker ownership, and worker participation, are all positively correlated with an increase in productivity. The one concept that is associated with employee ownership which found a negative correlation with productivity were codetermination laws, such as those proposed by Senator and 2020 presidential candidate Bernie Sanders, as reported by the Washington Post here. If anyone is unfamiliar what a codetermination law is, it is defined as a law requiring some level of employee representation in the Board of Directors, either they get to vote for a director or are on the board of directors themselves. It's important to note the subtle difference this study makes, however. It is basically saying that when the state mandates employee representation on a board of directors, it coincides with less productivity. This is where I would concede to right-wingers that the state being involved often comes with less efficiency(I'm sure we are all aware of this talking point, and I can't disagree). However, the other three variables it looked at include voluntarily having the employees represented, which is found to be positively correlated with productivity. Since I'm not necessarily arguing the state ought to mandate employee representation, but rather the mere presence of it in general, this would be an irrelevant point to bring up. Indeed, as someone who is a libertarian, albeit left-wing libertarian, I'm as opposed to state involvement in this matter just as many right-wingers are.

C2: Worker ownership of businesses would probably be followed by an increase in consumption and a decrease in investment

This next contention I do not have as solidly backed-up by meta-analyses like the previous one(mainly because I don't think this topic is nearly as well-researched as the previous). However, I would say it is backed up in logic. If workers are more involved in the company's business decisions, they would also be more aware of what products are out there in the market. It should be self-evident that increasing awareness of products would increase the likelihood of them being bought. Additionally, one study found that employee ownership not only decreased the failure rate of

businesses,

but likely increases job and income security, the likelihood a person is to keep and maintain their job and decrease unemployment all around. These indicators would mean people would be less likely to go through a period of unemployment and thus a reduction of their yearly income. More income means more consumption or more saving in which case that's more lending from banks.

So, I'm going to refer back to that previous study and present a couple of others, this one and this one. The study presented in the above paragraph and the first one presented in this paragraph, both seem to indicate that failure among newly-created businesses is rather high, and the one in the above paragraph, indicates that employee-ownership seems to decrease that. The second study, a meta-analysis looks at what things tend to make new technology ventures succeed. One must wonder why anyone is researching that if it's not true that the failure rate is high? One must ask, why is it so high? Given the number of businesses that get started, it seems start-up capital may not be an issue. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to suggest that investment is too high in that investors are investing so much that they invest in businesses bound to fail. Make sure to think of "investor" broadly to also include a business owner investing in their own business. I think we are all aware of the wealth distribution of the United States. Investors have far more wealth than anyone, and the primary thing they do is invest, while poor people primarily consume. A possible theory I suggest is that these businesses fail after some time because they can't find enough customers(aka, consumers), but so many businesses get started because they can easily find investment capital. While investment encourages more businesses to be created, I think it's self-evident it does little for whether that business will thrive and succeed. Obviously whether or not it has consumers is the primary factor on whether it does. So, why are so many businesses unable to find enough consumers? Why are the same ones easily able to get investment and can get started? The answer should be clear that consumers simply do not have enough money to consume as much that our level of investment demands. We need to have each reach equilibrium for a healthier economy, and as I've demonstrated, employee ownership would increase the income of consumers, and yes, likely decrease the income of investors, which is exactly what we need.

C4: Worker ownership would reduce the harm automation and shipping jobs overseas have on employees.

A rather interesting Forbes Article pointed out in 2014, that the employee-owned grocery store known as WinCo, has the average employee there being a millionaire. Many of these are simply grocery clerks. That should be rather impressive since I'm sure none of us think of grocery clerks when thinking about millionaires. Each of these employees owns stock in the company nearly automatically by simply being an employee, to the point 2/3 of the company minimum is owned by the employees themselves. Should Winco start automating, which like many grocery stores it does have self-checkouts now, it won't impact those employees since they still own a lot of money in savings from their stock-ownership plans. Should they be let-go, it could be said it's no skin off their nose, as they have a cushion in their savings to live off of for quite some time. That article is, of course, 5 years old and WinCo has only gotten bigger since then, and so would what the employees own.

Pre-rebuttals to opponents proposed contentions:

They said, it is...

Impractical to hold this as superior to a system where many citizens invest in corporations whether or not they happen to work for that corporation.

However, I wish to point out a very important distinction I made in the description of this debate, specifically the definitions. Under my definition for worker-owned business, outside investors would still be permitted. To maintain the spirit of worker cooperatives or worker-owned businesses, they do still offer investment plans to outside investors, as the whole purpose of "The original Community Investment: A guide to worker coop conversion investment", is to educate people on how to invest in worker-owned businesses like worker cooperatives, it's obviously possible. In order to maintain worker-owned and worker-controlled status, only the workers are often permitted voting stock. Outside investors may, instead, be given preferred, non-voting stock, as defined in my description above. Keep in mind, my definition for worker-owned businesses does not exclude the possibility for non-voting stock to go to non-workers.

So, before my opponent even presents evidence for this contention, the contention itself is irrelevant regardless of evidence supporting it, since people can still invest in worker co-ops, and worker-owned businesses in general, regardless of working for them. They just won't be given the same investment options as the workers there.

My opponent's second contention is:

Impractical and Immoral because insider trading is strongly prevented by clauses that ban you from investing in competition while also allowing workers to invest in the company's funds but banning them to pull out the shares due to any conceivable foreknowledge of an incoming slump based on their job title and the information that enabled them to access. Immoral would be in cases where this clause of the contract is removed to enable this to be a freer arrangement as it screws over a company for letting their workers own most of their shares/stocks.

It's a little early for me to argue fully against this, but if it is as true as my opponent is saying, it seems odd that such worker-owned companies already exist in the US. So if they really are breaking a law for merely existing due to these issues you're bringing up of insider-trading being inherent to them given the employees would know when the company would crash/not crash and owning stock, why are they allowed to exist? So, this is the question I pose. It's not as strong as pointing out the irrelevancy of the previous contention, but it does cast doubt that the wording of these laws my opponent may bring up actually supports what they concluded here. So, I implore you to share with us the specific law for your primary evidence.

There is no way at all to think the US would truly compete with the rest of the world if it stopped very rich groups (hedge-fund groups like the Vanguard Group and Black Rock) because these 'Illuminati' elite completely have so much control over the economy of the world as a whole so they'd move out of the country and drive it into a state of being impoverished by pressurising companies to trade less and less with the US until it caved in.

Not going to lie, this sounds like a conspiracy theory. I won't further comment though, since this seems self-evidently making you live up to the latter half of your username. But, my interest is piqued, so I'm not going to pre-emptively strike this down. I want to see how you argue for this lol.

The system is already a corrupt selfish system because it assumes the best advice will come from those with the most money to lose and gain, as opposed to any kind of honest and genuine motive to steer the company/corporation in the right direction. Therefore, there's no point appealing to morality or high emotive ideals in this debate.

I agree, but I don't think this should be seen as a point for you, given that the topic is already implied to be looking at this from an economic perspective, so morality and appeal to emotion would be irrelevant. Just look at the debate title and my description which is hugely based off of financial and economic terms lol. Isn't it implied we aren't debating morality here? Also, doesn't this very same contention contradict with your first contention where, and quote, you said it's "Impractical and Immoral..."

Stick to only the practicality there, is my advice, otherwise you will be contradicting yourself here. Of course, I'll forgive you if this was an honest mistake, and voters, for me to be fair, I say you should give some leeway. So unless he continues to support both the position that morality arguments have "no point" while simultaneously arguing for a moral argument as posited in contention 1, then I say you may want to vote against my opponent. But, I'm understanding of one mistake, because I'm also prone to accidentally word things in contradictory ways too, and we're all human. They've been informed now though, so no excuse from here on out.

RationalMadman

08.10.2019 05:42PM

Con

Based on the debate structure and how strong my case is vs my opponents baseless claims, I firmly am certain that the correct play here is to post nothing further in my R2 than was in my R1.

Round 3

Cogent_Cognizer

08.11.2019 12:24AM

Pro

First, since there were two mistakes in my previous round, I will correct them now. C4 should have been "C3", so for now on out when I refer to "C3" it's referring to the mistakenly numbered "C4". Now, moving on to what my opponent said in the previous round:

Based on the debate structure and how strong my case is vs my opponents baseless claims, I firmly am certain that the correct play here is to post nothing further in my R2 than was in my R1.

I get the feeling I'm being trolled now, which is surprising given we have another debate that RationalMadman seemed to have taken seriously.

Well, since this round is meant to refute the specifics of the opponent's arguments or offer further evidence of our positions, I have no choice but to use this round with further supporting evidence, and since my opponent has decided to leave their claims in R1 unsubstantiated for now, this should be seen as a major setback. Hopefully, my opponent uses this Round, R3, for supporting evidence. They are allowed to do so still given the round structures I've outlined, and I'll wait for Round 4, where hopefully I'll have specific evidence from my opponent to refute. So, here are further supporting evidence of previous contentions I felt were not quite supported well enough in the previous round of mine. I think C1 is strongly enough backed, so I'll further support my other contentions.

C2: Revisited

Since C2 above was a little lacking in evidence, I'll provide another source, called Introduction to Worker Cooperatives and Their Role in the Changing Economy, where on page 381, it points out:

Social enterprises are gaining in popularity among consumers and in-vestors because they produce attractive products and services that also appeal to the values of consumers. This type of socially conscious business does not need to have an international focus; it can thrive and create change in our own backyards. Stable, wealth building employment opportunities are vital to help vulnerable workers and their communities.Worker cooperatives can play an important role in creating these jobs and rebuilding economically distressed localities

So, it points out how "social enterprises", which lists worker-owned businesses as such a social enterprise, claims they tend to appeal to values of consumers. Given this, it only seems natural that such a business model would encourage more consumption since they appeal to consumers' values more than other businesses. So, given this, and what I've stated in C2, it should all be pointing to one conclusion that worker co-ops increase consumption and possibly decrease investment. Furthermore, I argue that the latter has too much of it and the former does not have enough, thus worker-ownership would help us reach an economically-healthy equilibrium of Consumption and investment.

Furthermore, this study entitled Do Broad‐based Employee Ownership, Profit Sharing and Stock Options Help the Best Firms Do Even Better? Points out that employees have a lower voluntary turnover rate when given ownership. I'd like to point out that doing this means an employee will not only be less likely to go through a period of no income, thus their annual income would increase, but staying at the same business longer would mean more chances to get a raise and promotion, which switching to a new company would reset the progress and rapport they've made with the managers of where they work. More income would assuredly mean they would consume (or save) more, likely a combination of both.

C3: Revisted

This article titled Fear and Hope in an age of mass automation: debating the future of work, from 2018, argues that not only would it be helpful for the economy to have worker ownership as we move towards a society of complete automation, given that means everyone would still have an income, but that it is inevitable to happen. In order to avoid economic peril due to 1% of society owning all of the businesses, if all jobs were to become automated, then only 1% of society would still be getting an income, and the other 99% will have no means to consume. It would result in economic disaster and downturns as we move closer to closer to such a society. Thus, if all businesses were owned as a whole by workers or just anyone at all, it would alleviate this issue, and it's obviously required in order to maintain an economy.

I rest my second round of supporting evidence and hope that next round I'll have something of more substance from my opponent to refute.

RationalMadman

08.12.2019 05:51PM

Con

There is absolutely nothing in Pro's entire case that explains how you are going to compete with multi-billionaire hedgefunds or milionaire individuals who invest in companies. Are you going to make a law against them doing that? How on Earth would it benefit you to tell them to f*** off and invest elsewhere? Of course that will make all other countries rich, it's not a conspiracy theory.

Bridgewater Associates LP: According to its website, this Westport, Connecticut-based firm with approximately 1400 employees manages$150 billion in global investments spread across institutional clients, central banks and governments, corporate funds, and pension funds. It has $87.1 billion in hedge fund management, making it the largest hedge fund management firm.
J.P. Morgan Asset Management is a division of the larger JPMorgan Chase & Co. (JPM). Hedge fund management is a part of JPM Asset Management, along with management of other asset classes. JPMorgan Chase has $2.4 trillion in overall assets under management as of December 2013, of which, the hedge fund Asset Management has AUM of $59 billion.

- Seth, S. (2019). World's Top 10 Hedge Fund Firms. [online] Investopedia. Available at: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/011515/worlds-top-10-hedge-fund-firms.asp [Accessed 12 Aug. 2019].

This is not a conspiracy theory, they are major contributors to many companies, which company can you possibly look at that isn't going to go bankrupt if only its workers funded it? Yeah, only tiny ones, my evidence is lack of any opposing evidence. I don't even know what to tell you, it literally won't work. What exactly is in it for the workers anyway? I already told you, corporations don't allow you to pull out investment as a worker in the company, they say that's insider trading. You need to quit most companies to be able to pull out your shares. The only time they won't sue you for pulling out shares is if you pull it out when it's wrong to do so (when you know the company is about to have an upswing or maintain itself at the very least). If you pull out shares when it's optimal to do so (when the company is about to lose value in stock) you then will be prosecuted by your own company for insider trading (on your own behalf).

In short, insider trading happens when someone makes a trade of stock based on information that is not available to the general public.

To be accused of insider trading, you must usually be someone who has a fiduciary duty to another person, institution, corporation, partnership, firm, or entity. You can get in trouble of you make an investment decision based upon information related to that fiduciary duty that is not available to everyone else. This insider information allows a person to profit in some cases, and avoid loss in others (in the Martha Stewart/ImClone scandal, the latter happened to be the case).

Insider trading can also arise in cases where no fiduciary duty is present but another crime has been committed, such as corporate espionage. For example, an organized crime ring that infiltrated certain financial or legal institutions to systematically gain access to and exploit non-public information (perhaps through the use of computer viruses or recording devices) might be found guilty of insider trading among other charges for the related crimes.

- Kennon, J. (2019). What Is Insider Trading and Why Is It Illegal?. [online] The Balance. Available at: https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-insider-trading-and-why-is-it-illegal-356337 [Accessed 12 Aug. 2019].

Round 4

Cogent_Cognizer

08.12.2019 06:34PM

Pro

Apologies to my opponent for suggesting that contention sounded like a conspiracy theory. The way it was worded soundedr ather conspiracy-like, given you literally used the word "Illuminati" and other word choices to support that. I see what you're arguing now, and it's clearer to me. I may have made the mistake of misinterpreting that contention, but it would have been clearer without the use of such terms.

I'll address this argument that's more well-said now.

My opponent has argued that essentially these businesses I'm suggesting would have a hard time competing with the millionaire investors.

First, I want to point out that this is irrelevant. Whether or not such an economy where worker-owned businesses pre-dominate would be feasible is not what is up for debate here. Rather, assuming we got to such an economy, we're arguing over whether it's good or

bad for the economy. Given many context clues provided in the description, and the fact it's specific to improving the US economy, this ought to have been clear, no?

At any rate, we are not telling these people to go invest elsewhere if the economy was worker-owned. As I had pointed out in my Pre-rebuttals in round 2, there are actually plenty of investment options for people who work outside of the company. Those hedgefund companies will be allowed to invest in a worker-owned economy if they so desire.

I personally believe this entire round is actually a strawman argument, and I'm asserting it as such for the following reasons:

I never stated anywhere that people would be disallowed from investing in these worker-owned businesses, and on the contrary, I provided a source in that aforementioned round 2 of my pre-rebuttals showing just how outsiders can invest in those businesses. So, my opponent is attacking a position that not only did I not

present, but one in which I proved false ahead of time. This seems worse than a strawman come to think of it.

As for this argument about insider trading, my opponent does not sufficiently address the issue. They are claiming it's a matter of
legality but didn't provide a legal source as I asked, such as the exact wording of the law in question. Given what I said already in round 2...

It's a little early for me to argue fully against this, but if it is as true as my opponent is saying, it seems odd that such worker-owned companies already exist in the US. So if they really are breaking a law for merely existing due to these issues you're bringing up of insider-trading being inherent to them given the employees would know when the company would crash/not crash and owning stock, why are they allowed to exist? So, this is the question I pose. It's not as strong as pointing out the irrelevancy of the previous contention, but it does cast doubt that the wording of these laws my opponent may bring up actually supports what they concluded here. So, I implore you to share with us the specific law for your primary evidence.

A source like "The Balance" isn't going to do the actual law against insider trading justice, considering they're simplifying and summarizing it. Given the US is completely permissive of those worker co-ops existing, I'm going to just dismiss your claim here since it seems logical to conclude there is likely some exception in the law since worker co-ops already exist and are allowed to exist by the state despite this law against insider trading.

RationalMadman

08.15.2019 06:09PM

Con

Outsider cannot invest past 50% ownership of the shares. You'd have to have around 70% ownership by the workers to call it worker-owned. It is impractical and outrageous to assume this would benefit the economy because not only are you driving away massive investment firms to other countries, you're also making the workers trapped in investments they can't pull out of to pressure the company to change.

Round 5

Cogent_Cognizer

08.16.2019 06:17PM

Pro

Both due to that I am not really in a condition to think much over this, and that my opponent didn't say much last round, I will say less this round.

I just wish to emphasize that many of the things my opponent had brought up weren't quite as true given how I pointed out that for the ownership aspect of the businesses, many of those worker co-ops and employee-owned businesses only require the voting stock be owned primarily by the employees. I pointed this out in C4 of round 2 of course. Any arguments concerning morality and such were irrelevant to the debate, as I pointed out in my response to my opponent's fourth contention. I believe, as should voters, that many of these arguments presented by my opponent did not hold water enough to be concerning.

Though I am critical of my opponent's arguments, I, of course, mean no offense, and I enjoyed this debate with them. May we debate again.

RationalMadman

08.19.2019 06:15PM

Con

#10

I have won if the voters think well.

Ramshutu

08.21.2019 02:19AM

#42

Googles SEC filings indicates I’m correct, and the claims that you made multiple times, that companies would never have majority non voting stock, that I could never ever find a single company that did, that google definitely didn’t, and I wouldn’t be able to show google did were not correct.

That you went a dozen posts doubling down on the claim, being repeatedly proven wrong and still - after being confronted with someone who is prepared to search the internet for facts - not bothering to check whether what you’re saying Is true, and still acting like you’re still correct despite the clear documentary evidence is a microcosm of why you lost this, and other debates: and very much why everyone laughs at you when you claim you’re a strategic genius.

Also, I’m not a socialist.

RationalMadman

08.21.2019 01:55AM

#41

I understand you think you are correct, you're even getting 2 thumbs up at times from fanboys who really just don't like me and/or buy into socialist propaganda.

I am not concerned with whatever you say or if you have a fanclub, I am concerned only with letting you know that you are ill-informed and didn't grasp this debate.

Ramshutu

08.21.2019 01:21AM

#40

“please reveal your source that shows that the owners of B stocks are in any way guaranteed to be Google employees”

Done

“Google is one of the hugest corporations on Earth, you cannot possibly tell me that you are so naive to think it's anywhere near being even 40% owned by its workers (even at the top level).”

It is.

I thought I’d mention that; as you seem to have forgotten that you just seem to have forgotten what you just said, and started talking about something completely different.

RationalMadman

08.21.2019 01:07AM

#39

You are confused because the opposite is true. Obviously the highest rankers in Google are major shareholders of it but what's also true is that by owning enough of the class B stocks while they were for sale, it granted you high authority in the company whereby you're regarded as a director of sorts that votes on executive decisions. Go into the fine-print and realise that you have no idea what you're talking about. Google, Facebook and frankly every single corporation in their realm are all owned by the same group of major shareholders differing in ones with a very specific agenda but having in common the shareholders who are involved with groups like the Vanguard group.

Private Equity refers to getting in fast and with a large amount of money at a time when a corporation is snowballing to become so juice to invest in that it will then pull off something like cancelling the biggest voting-power share (class B for Google) because it's voted to be so by the shareholders as an optimal move.

https://hbr.org/2007/09/the-strategic-secret-of-private-equity

Socialists who truly take the cause to its fullest, such as yourself even though you list yourself as 'Progressive' for now, generally only support the notion because of a lack of understanding of economics, I see that you are not an exception to the rule.

Cogent_Cognizer

08.21.2019 12:59AM

#38

-->

@Ramshutu

I do not suggest continuing to engage with RM

Ramshutu

08.21.2019 12:58AM

#37

https://abc.xyz/investor/static/pdf/2019_alphabet_proxy_statement.pdf?cache=3ed6a89

2019 - it’s dropped to 58%!

Ramshutu

08.21.2019 12:52AM

#36

Just so you’re aware, a genius or Sun Tzu would have at least googled the information they claimed as true before doubling down on their vehement accusations.

Hell, it’s like you didn’t even know that shareholder information like this is normally all publicly facing.

Ramshutu

08.21.2019 12:49AM

#35

Good lord.

Way to double down! Do you realize when making these ridiculous opinionated claims that are not based on facts, that this information is publically available? What type of strategy genius throws out his opinions, and doesn’t check them when in a discussion with someone who Is CLEARLY willing to check things:

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1652044/000130817917000170/lgoog2017_def14a.htm

Google 2017 AGm proxy statement SEC filings. Page 31

All executive officers and directors as a group - own 44m class B shares totalling 58.2% of voting power.

But please, tell me more about how I’m confused, and lying about facts that are recorded in googles own public filings.

RationalMadman

08.21.2019 12:32AM

#34

You are frankly confused and lying. Many of the biggest shareholders are ex-Google CEOs or the opposite (resulting from mergers with Android etc where a high ranking Android employee moved over to Google as an ambassador from Google to Android to keep relations good) but please reveal your source that shows that the owners of B stocks are in any way guaranteed to be Google employees, I'll sit here and wait.

Ramshutu

08.21.2019 12:14AM

#33

“Google is one of the hugest corporations on Earth, you cannot possibly tell me that you are so naive to think it's anywhere near being even 40% owned by its workers (even at the top level).”

Why on God’s green earth does a self professed genius and strategy God make opinionated claims about objective reality that can easily be verified or disproved - and yet don’t bother to actually bother to google or validate any of those claims before wading in and vehemently stating these opinions as facts.

61% of google voting stock is in class B shares which are not publicly traded: they are owned by people who work for the company, primarily directors. Same with Facebook.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets/052215/goog-or-googl-which-google-should-you-buy.asp

RationalMadman

08.21.2019 12:05AM

#32

Google is one of the hugest corporations on Earth, you cannot possibly tell me that you are so naive to think it's anywhere near being even 40% owned by its workers (even at the top level).

RationalMadman

08.21.2019 12:04AM

#31

That is because the firms don't usually get it by public purchase, they make private arrangements from early on and part of their voting power lets them declare permanence to the percentage of shares they hold so long as the company keeps profiting over time.

Ramshutu

08.20.2019 11:24PM

#30

-->

@Cogent_Cognizer

Interestingly, I think there is only 39% of googles voting stock is publically tradeable. Similar deal with Facebook and NewsCorp.

So the “You will never ever find...” is actually “I found three examples, and it doesn’t seem that uncommon.”

Not quite worker owned, as most of the voting stock reside with key insiders allowing them to control the company; but interestingly refutes that possible argument - but still. Interesting debate.

Cogent_Cognizer

08.20.2019 09:24PM

#29

-->

@RationalMadman

You had said: "You will never ever find that the majority of stocks in any firm at all is non-voting, that is a total waste of investment for the firms because they want to steer the company as time goes by."

I get this point, but as was stated in the description of my debate:

" I would like to think I defined the above terms in a suitable way, though I recognize I may have left out or worded something improperly. If that's the case, my opponent should let me know IN THE COMMENTS, before accepting the debate so I may change the definitions if I agree with you that I somehow misrepresented these terms. "

If you had an issue with how they were defined in the description, we could have worked out a better definition in the comments. I was more than willing to adjust the definitions if I determined I did misrepresent something in them. I apologize if that wasn't clear. I did have a very large description, perhaps it offered difficulty in comprehending it all or made one decide not to read it all.

Ramshutu

08.20.2019 05:20PM

#28

Yeah: you are muddling up two different issues.

In the debate, you confused voting and non voting stock, pretended as if they were the same, and made no reference to any of the issues or differences. This is what I voted on, and this is what made no sense.

A day or so later, after your error has been pointed out, you then go a half dozen posts before offering a new argument that appeared no where in the debate: this argument is unsourced, not justified by data, occurred too late, and retroactively corrects the actual error in your debate - but is plausible.

I can’t vote on arguments you didn’t make. And while correcting your own error is a great way for self growth, don’t confuse being able to correct a glaring error in your debate with not making the error in the first place.

RationalMadman

08.20.2019 05:09PM

#27

You just correctly stated my perfectly valid argument and then said it makes no sense. :) Common stocks are voting stocks, the non-voting stocks are a severe minority stock that usually workers will buy because they're generally never allowed to pull them out while working for the company so would prefer the lower risk, lower reward stock.

Meanwhile, the firms buy out huge stocks, all voting, to have major say in the company. If you can't grasp that logic, that's your burden to bear.

Ramshutu

08.20.2019 03:58PM

#26

Let me explain again, gently in a way that helps guide you the reality of your error.

Your opponent was arguing that companies should be controlled by workers. This was defined clearly and excessively in the description and by your opponent.

You were arguing that this meant that companies would have half their assets owned - and half of all stock - owned by the workers.

You appeared not to understand the distinction between the two - despite your opponent explaining it several times.

I used your opponents description in the debate title - and his opening argument as it was clear and unambiguous to determine what worker owned meant - and this inherently meant your arguments made no sense any more, as the debate was you asserting one thing, and your opponent pointing out that you were incorrect.

After the debate has finished, the error has been pointed out, and you have now gone a dozen or so posts objecting to your own misunderstanding... you appear to NOW provide a justification of why a hedge fund wouldn’t invest in a worker owned business, as it would not want to pay money for non voting stock.

That’s a reasonable opinion. Which you should find easy to back up with data and sources.

Where did you post this in the debate?

I can’t vote based on you retroactively correcting your own error in the comments days after the debate has ended.

Ramshutu

08.20.2019 03:49PM

#25

You gave sources to explain that there are massive investment firms that outweigh what workers can contribute.....

To start with - no. You didn’t. You gave sources to explain the amount that the top hedge funds could contribute, but did not make any reference or mention of the potential contribution of workers. You didn’t explain to what workers would need to contribute - this was largely assumed - and you didn’t reference the concept of voting and non voting stock - so your source was largely one sided and arbitrary s

Second - this whole argument is only relevant if you’re arguing that workers must necessarily take up the slack of lack of investment of investment firms.

As pro pointed out - and repeatedly an patiently explained - and you largely ignored in favour of repeating your claim - is not the case : voters have voting stock, and investment firms would hold non voting stock.

This is why your misunderstanding lost you the debate - your argument was dependent on workers having to invest in the company to pick up the slack - which appears to have been based on you not realizing the difference between non voting and voting stock, andarguing as if there is one single pool of stocks for which the workers must own 50% of the company: rather than 50% of the control of the company - as your opponent was arguing

This was, yet again, your error: you made a strategic blunder by confusing two types of stock, failed to address anything your opponent raised: and seem to still not understand the error you made.

RationalMadman

08.20.2019 03:41PM

#24

You will never ever find that the majority of stocks in any firm at all is non-voting, that is a total waste of investment for the firms because they want to steer the company as time goes by.

RationalMadman

08.20.2019 03:41PM

#23

Common stock is voting stock, the stock that massive firms buy is always voting stock.

RationalMadman

08.20.2019 03:35PM

#22

I gave sources to explain that there are massive investment firms that outweigh what workers can contribute. Not much else needed to be sourced, it was pure logic. I coul dhave expanded on every tiny point as much as 15k would allow but I know you'd call it gish gallop and it would be more effort for a more guaranteed loss anyway.

You're a confused socialist in a world you barely understand, it's okay I get it. You're biased, want me to lose and couldn't grasp the debate. I think you think I'm still angry about this, I genuinely feel nothing I am at total peace with your flaws and the equally flawed system enabling you to guarantee me losses. I am genuinely quitting this website after the moon landing debate, I had some things to clear up on CD and elsewhere before I fully quit but once I finally make my case for the moon landing and a sensible basis on which to suspect NASA, especially when they were under Nixon's admin, I will be at peace to leave the website. The problem is that it's 2-week Rounds so it will be dragged out. I hope I opened my opponent's mind in this debate and stopped caring about 'wins' after my original break when I had the 50 Cent image. I am not here to win in the literal sense anymore, I understand your monopoly on controlling that and also understand that if I got revenge it would be too long-term difficult as you're already much higher than me in Rating and intentionally pick very weak opponents alone but also because you have garnered enough respect and kinship from a select few members who actively vote (predominanty Ragnar) who think very much like you; superficial truths based on very superficial reasoning. It's fine by me, continue what you're doing I can't stop you. The foolish will cheer you on, the wise will realise this site isn't worth staying on with corrupt 'gang mentality' voters controlling who wins and loses based on how much they like them or superficially agree with the conveyed opinions.

Ramshutu

08.20.2019 03:34PM

#21

The description and your opponent clearly made a distinction between stocks owned to control business decisions - and the stock of the company in general. It was clear from the description and your opponents argument that to be worker owned, half the voting stock should be owned by workers: and your opponent explained that the remaining stock could be owned and purchased by anyone - but would not necessarily be allowed to use those shares to control business decisions of the company. This was - literally - explicit in the debate.

You completely ignored the debate description and your opponent multiple times, in order to argue that it was not possible for workers to own all the stock, and that there would be less stock available for investors - neither of which is true because workers only have voting stock - as your opponent stated

You either didn’t read the debate description, didn’t understand it, didn’t realize despite your opponent mentioning it multiple times, or realized all of these things and simply didn’t mention this key distinction despite it being central to the opponents thesis and definition of worker owned.

Either way, the lack of thought, or strategic error undermined you’re entire argument.

However - as I noted you didn’t bother refuting your opponent, and the debate still boiled down to well explained and justified facts backed up by studies and data vs a vehemently asserted opinion, and 40% or the debate rounds dedicated to explaining how you had won.

Ramshutu

08.20.2019 03:21PM

#20

1.) The description distinguishes the two stock types: your opponent made the distinction multiple times in the debate, and even helpfully explained it in his second round. 75% of your argument was based entirely on you clearly and completely misunderstanding what was being discussed.

2.) You offered no rebuttal - your opponent offered detailed evidence and clear benefits. It is strategic suicide in a debate to simply drop every single thing your opponent said.

3.) You offered no source basis for any of your points - again, strategically suicidal in a policy debate - meaning that it was study based claims supported by facts vs your vehemently stated opinion.

4.) There is a broad spectrum of possible strategies - in which most other debaters inhabit - between “let’s throw out so many small, individual points that I have made no effort to justify that my opponent will not be able to address all of them” and “I am not going to address a single point my opponent raises in any way”. If you view the only alternative to one as the other - I would take a look at, literally, any debate conducted by individuals in the top 5 of this forum - here you will see a plethora of debates where individuals both address points raised, and do not engage in Gish gallops.

RationalMadman

08.20.2019 03:06PM

#19

"3.) Did not understand the difference between “voting stock” and “common stock”, despite it being pointed out at least 3 times."

This is where you really know there's a comprehension gap. They are the same stock.

RationalMadman

08.20.2019 03:05PM

#18

Omg, RM tries in another debate to address every point, source everything and it's NO VOTE THAT IS GISH GALLOP!

Omg, RM makes sure not to gish gallop, tears apart the case from the seams and also noticed that common stock is voting stock because that's literally the same type of stock.

Omg, Ramshutu the socialist had a booboo

Ramshutu

08.20.2019 02:30PM

#17

1.) offered no sources to directly substantiate your claims.

2.) Refused to offer ANY rebuttal against anything your opponent said.

3.) Did not understand the difference between “voting stock” and “common stock”, despite it being pointed out at least 3 times.

4.) Offered no argument, speech or explanation in R2 or R5.

Omg voters are corrupt!

TheRealNihilist

08.20.2019 02:26PM

#16

@RM

Didn't attempt in Round 2, 4 or 5

RationalMadman

08.20.2019 02:15PM

#15

Losing a debate where the voters are inept and/or corrupt is easy Omar, welp.

TheRealNihilist

08.20.2019 12:40PM

#14

@RM

How can you lose this?

Welp.

Cogent_Cognizer

08.19.2019 06:31PM

#13

I didn't see the vote in time before it apparently was removed. What did it say?

Dr.Franklin

08.19.2019 06:24PM

#12

hehe

RationalMadman

08.19.2019 06:18PM

#11

-->

@David

@bsh1

franklin's vote is straightforward removal for the below-stated reasons.

RationalMadman

08.19.2019 06:18PM

#10

Your vote will be taken down because you have to explain fully why you tied arguments for it to qualify and go into where I said 'mentally ok'.

Cogent_Cognizer

08.07.2019 06:43PM

Also, C4 should be C3, typo.

Where I said his first contention is in contradiction to the last, it should have been the second one technically, but depending on what we mean by "first" it technically was "first" when just looking at contention 2 and 4. I mean, 2 is first for the range of 2-4... but alright, I'm obviously trying to cover my ass for this mistake XD

Cogent_Cognizer

08.07.2019 06:40PM

I might need to let the owners of this site know. It's rather annoying this technical issue is happening.

Cogent_Cognizer

08.07.2019 06:39PM

Also:
Dang it. Somehow Debateart continually messes with the organizations of my paragraphs now and then. I apologize for one of my paragraphs being split up randomly: the first one for C2(There should only be two paragraphs for C2). I don't understand why this is happening. I do know for sure it happens when I type on debateart, but this one I literally copied and pasted from a document file, since I'm already aware of this issue. I haven't the foggiest clue how this one happened this time. Maybe it is doing it after I click publish in addition to when I type? I'm really lost here guys.

Cogent_Cognizer

08.07.2019 06:36PM

-->

@Dr.Franklin

Thanks for your vote of confidence. My opening argument with supporting evidence is up by the way.

Dr.Franklin

08.03.2019 12:23PM

go Cogent!

Pinkfreud08

08.03.2019 06:50AM

RM make up your mind, are you quitting or are you not?

RationalMadman

08.03.2019 05:21AM

-->

@TheAtheist

this is quite simply impractical for any business that is remotely large. In other words, the only businesses this will prove true for are the minority who make the least money overall in general and thus won't benefit US's economy overall as US is a nation whose economy is almost entirely driven by 'big business' these days.

TheAtheist

08.03.2019 05:13AM

Very interesting topic. I haven't really thought about this before. Right now I'm neutral on this, but let's see who is a better debater!

blamonkey

08.02.2019 09:23PM

Interesting challenge. I haven't debated something like this before. I don't know if I want to accept yet due to some IRL stuff, but I am considering it. Especially if no one else is interested.

Ramshutu

08.20.2019 12:34PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Con didn’t really provide any serious substantiated case, really just writing a cursory round, as required, and doing little to confirm it.

Cons case for 1/3/4 revolves around stocks not being available for investment in some way - and the detriment this would have. As pro pointed out in T2, C4; in the final round and highlighted in R3, this is not correct, and is somewhat misunderstanding.

In Cons round 3, con appears to suggest that outside owners cannot own more than 50% of the shares, and it must be considered 70% employee owned to constitute “worker owned”.

Pro outlines what “worker owned” means - that > 50 of voting stock is owned by workers; most importantly pro outlines both in his R2, but also at length in the description what “voting stocks” actually mean.

It seems con has misunderstood the description and pros argument: not grasping the difference between general “stocks” and “voting stocks”, despite it being pointed out by pro, and the description in detail

It seems pretty clear that pro is talking about a scenario where the controlling shares of the company are majority owned by workers; with a large volume of actual shares (which could dwarf the voting shares in numbers).

Given cons misunderstanding, his points 1/3/4 are largely irrelevant; as pro covered. Hedge funds and outside groups can invest heavily in companies - but will simply not be able to own a majority of voting stocks.

While I think there is an argument to be made there had con understood this issue, this was not generated within the debate, and as such cons argument seems to have clearly misunderstood the concept.

Cons final main point made was that of insider trading. Con argues that worker owned enterprises would lead to insider trading - it’s not exactly clear how or why he feels this is the case: he seems to indicate that organizations would remove a contract clause - but offers no evidence of why, or examples. As pro pointed out, worker owned organizations already exists, and these appear to have no legal issues - this seems pretty compelling that as such organizations exist without being shut down for inherent insider trading - it seems to appear that this final point is moot.

Pros case is pretty open and shut - at no point does con address anything pro said, and thus the entirety of pros case goes completely unchallenged; it is not a strategically wise move to put all eggs in one basket.

Pro provides key sources to show GDP improves with worker ownership, business
Failures decrease, and improved ability to weather changes due to offshoring, and automation.

None of these aspects were challenged In any way by con; so the benefits stand.

In general, even had con not wholly misunderstood the premise, this debate as down to facts presented by pro, and mostly opinion and assertion about what would happen by con; as a result; pro clearly wins on arguments.

Con should read carefully the debate description, and terms. Googling information to make sure he gets the detail. Also pro makes the mistake of presenting an unsourced, uncorroborated opinion. As this is a policy debate rather than a philosophy debate, that always puts you at a disadvantage ; and means your entire argument can be bought down by one or two small facts. Also, even if you’re 100% confident in the strength of your case - always rebut your opponent, if you make an error in your supporting argument, you won’t automatically lose; even if you don’t make an error, you run the risk of having your opponents sourced benefits outweighing your harms

Sources:

Con offered only two sources; simply listing hedge funds, and describing insider trading. That hedge funds exist does not show they would not invest, and showing insider trading is a law does not show it would occur - as such neither source help cons credibility.

Pros sources were clearly laid out, and highlighted how this debate was a fact vs opinion debate.

Pro cotes dive studies, Rutger, Now, a PIM metastudy, a research gate, and Jstor studies That Quantified and confirmed
his claims and general benefit of his plan.

On the one hand: pro has five scientific studies linked and cited to justify his claims; on the other, pro VERY emphatically stated “It is impractical and outrageous to assume this would benefit the economy”

The disparity in quality of sources and how they supported the individual sides warrant awarding source points.

All other points tied.