Debate Art should change their “gender” option and replace it with “sex”, where only “male” or “female” are options
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Full resolution:
Debate Art should change their “gender” option and replace it with “sex”, where only “male” or “female” are options
BoP is shared.
In “edit profile”, Debate Art currently provides a ‘gender’ field with multiple options for a user to choose from. For Pro to fulfill their BoP they must reasonably assert why this field should be replaced with a “sex” field with “male” and “female” as its only options. As Con, they ought to argue why the current gender field, with it's current options ought
not to be replaced by a sex field. Moreover, it is to be assumed that there can only exist either the sex field or the gender field; hence it should be argued why one should take precedence over the other.
Sex - “the sex as determined by the presence of the XX (female) or the XY (male) genotype in somatic cells, without regard to phenotypic manifestations.”
Gender - “either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female
Format:
R1: Pro provides opening statements and waives, Con provides opening argument
R2: Pro provides opening argument with rebuttal, Con rebuts
R3: Defence/rebuttal
R4: Defence, with closing statements (no new rebuttals)
A2. Other examples are absurd
A3. Data Consistency
1.3 Logical FormulationP1: X supervenes a grounded A-PropertyP2: This A-Property is either biological or cultural and socialP3: it is a biological factorC1: X does not supervene on cultural and social factorsP4: If C1 then “gender” is incoherentC2: Gender is incoherent(let X be the distinction between male and female)
If whether I am “male”, “female” or “other” depended on social and cultural factors, then who is to say that my gender doesn’t change consistently?
People are allowed to change the gender field anyway, so this argument is non-unique because, even without the "other" field, anybody could still choose between "male" and "female" at their discretion. My opponent tries to argue that changing the name "gender" to "sex" would prevent such behavior, but as the layman would not recognize any distinction between the two words, such behavior would continue unhindered. Thus, changing the "gender" field to say "sex" would not reduce the effect described by my opponent.
If one would like to express themselves they always have their bio as a medium.
Con argues that the change is unneeded because people tend not to check gender anyway. Prima facie this would mean that the field shouldn't exist at all. DA would be better inclined to remove the field as a whole to free up storage space. Regardless, this claim could be extended to any of the questions on the profile page; so are all the fields unnecessary and if so why wouldn't it be better to remove them all as a whole to free storage space?
I must remind Con that he ought to defend the coherence of the “gender” field.
Moreover, Con ought to defend how “other” is a coherent gender and what would constitute as “other”. For example, why is “male” a valid gender, but “dishwasher” is not?
It is prudent to highlight that the coherence of the “gender” field is a part of Con’s burden of proof, because if it were incoherent, there is nothing Con would be conceivably arguing for. In the debate description, the burden of proof is shared and described as the following:
C1. More Choices
Judges
It is true and I have admitted that judging is subjective, but this only shows the irrationality of using something subjective over something objective.
If we could find out the winner of a debate with 100% accuracy we would not have a judging system. Judges disagree with other judges, but both are right? If a voter meets the voting criteria and votes Pro and another votes Con, both are “equally correct” yet posit different conclusions. This is in direct violation of the law of non-contradiction (LEM) [1]. However, we are roped in to having to judge debates this way, because there doesn’t exist a method that can determine the winner of a debate with 100% accuracy. However, we can determine one’s sex with 100% accuracy, so this is a false analogy.
Bio
I have already addressed my contentions to this argument in my previous round and was dropped by Con. However, to reiterate, Con contends that by my logic, the concept of a bio would likewise be absurd, because it isn’t reducible to anything objective.
Let A be the first principle of the law of excluded middle:
P1: Entity x1, “feels the Mona Lisa is beautiful”
P2: If P1, the Mona Lisa is beautiful (making inferences from subjectivity)
C1: The Mona Lisa is beautiful
P3: Entity x2, “feels the Mona Lisa is not beautiful”
P4: If P3, the Mona Lisa is not beautiful (making inferences from subjectivity)
C2:The Mona Lisa is not beautiful
*C1 & C2 entails a contradiction (P2 & P4 Law of Excluded Middle)*
The concept of “gender” commits the same fallacy because what constitutes an individual gender (i.e “male” but not “female”) is resulted from inference from subjectivity! To say I am “male” infers that I am “not female”, but inferring such without something objective results in the direct violation of the law of non-contradiction.
C2. Unnecessary
Again, as aforementioned, the fields allow the user to choose one option, be it “male”, “female” or “other”. To choose one, infers the negative of the other two. The only field that coherently allows such without violating the law of non-contradiction is the “sex” field. Thus, it is the only option that is able to fulfil the field’s purpose in a coherent manor.
Likewise, this argument was not included in Con’s last round, so I extend. I am unsure whether this is because Con drops these arguments, or whether it is because he did not realise round 3 is “defence/rebuttals”. If he addresses them this round, would mean that I have had one less round to defend these arguments.
Closing Sentiments
Overall, it can be seen that the “sex” field actually creates coherent distinctions between “male” and “female” and provides DA with consistent and largely reliable data to analyse. This competes relative to the “gender” field that bristles with many logical fallacies. The “gender” field provides options that cannot be agreed upon, cannot coherently make a distinction from its options (where it having the "other" option violates the definition of gender), violates the law of non-contradiction, cannot provide what constitutes what “male”, “female” or “other” is in any meaningful way and cannot even be discussed in any rational manor, because the concept and very essence of it is incoherent. Moreover, it doesn’t convey anything about one’s personality, because people’s interpretation of the options are different – thus misleading many users and lastly gives DA ambiguous data to analyse. For these reasons, it is apparent that the “sex” field should take precedence and thus should be changed.
References
[1] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-noncontradiction/#ThreVersPrinNonCont
[2] https://www.livescience.com/21569-deduction-vs-induction.html
A discussion would be great! I understand that view completely and I think you are right.
At the very least, I’m interested in discussing this with you, because I think there’s real benefits from having a “gender” option irrespective of the fact that gender is “scientifically imprecise.” For example, “political ideology” is also imprecise and a social construction—it is nonetheless an option, because it contributes valuable information. Gender might be even more important information for the mental health of DART members who are, for example, trans, or have gender dysphoria (and the scientific consensus, by the way, is that trans people—whose gender, whether that’s neurological or socially constructed, differs from the sex they were assigned at birth—exist), to ensure that other members refer to them by the appropriate pronouns, for example.
Thanks for taking the time to vote!
---RFD (1 of 2)---
Interpreting the resolution:
Pretty straight forward proposal.
Gist:
I learned more about intersexed people than I ever thought I needed. While I disagree with pro, he makes a strong case.
1. Value Proposition to Status Quo
Con suggests more choices are good, and a lack of harm by existence of said choices. Pro counters that the bio section lets them full express themselves and explain any special details like pronouns (add some back and forth, a couple references to Sharkdado... which FYI, is a sexuality).
Con clarifies: “being able to determine something about a DART user's personality helps another such user much more than knowing what genitalia said DART user has.” Wholly agreed.
As for the potential moving the goalpost fallacy, I am oddly siding with pro on it. It seemed to be a suggestion of a tactic which should be employed in light of him proving the coherence of the sex field, which left the gender field assumed incoherent by comparison and not defended on that point.
2. Wasteful Change
The ol’ if it ain’t broke line expanded out... These don’t tend to sway me, especially when we know the competing value proposition is incoming (as much as I agree BoP rests on pro). As pro ended up pointing out, it’s only a minute amount of effort to change this.
I do count pro’s rhetorical just get rid of all the fields against him...
---RFD (2 of 2)---
3. Biological Neatness
For the first heading on this (relating to the physical world), pro did very well to say “The importance of this will be shown later.”
Con counters that this is a website (I liked a lot of this, but it got tedious by the end), but later messily talked about “more real-world uses.”
4. Gender is unscientific
It certainly can’t be determined by an outsider...
5. Aje
Well played...
Nice counter from con about why people use genders other than their sexes.
I probably found it too amusing that pro used Toasters as a gender in his defense... But pro rightly caught con insisting on biological standards.
6. Data Use
It needs to be said, people do have the option to change such things any time they want, and that is unlikely to change under any storage name. However, pro does make a case for website design and advertising to which better data would be useful. ... Con’s rebuttal directly dismissed this listed value, which as a debater I do understand the flow we get into, so am calling it a minor oversight rather than a conduct violation.
Con rightly points out that people who want to flip flop, will do that no matter what the field is called. Pro insists that there would be less of this, and the data would still be better.
---
Arguments:
See above review of key points. On balance pro pulls ahead, without a doubt proving that sex is a better metric, and further that it would be a better metric for this site. ... And yeah, I disagree for various subjective reasons, but he made the better case.
Sources:
I saw what I thought was callouts, but no sources were listed (I discount final round ones as unnatural).
Conduct:
Forfeiture.
Reading your arguments now... Neat thing about age: There's one or two major lawsuits going on about that right now (it's neat, but weird).
If any of you have time over the next two days, could you spare some to vote on this debate? The vote it had was removed and I hate debates going ties! Thank you.
Oh, sorry. I had looked up how to go about voting on debates and all, but I didn't know there were requirements first.
Welcome to the site! Unfortunately your vote is ineligible due to the rules we have in place for brand new members. I’ll be happy to answer any questions you may have.
In the mean time, please take a look at the code of conduct at here: https://www.debateart.com/rules
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>Reported Vote: LordLuke// Mod action: [Removed]
>Points Awarded: 3 points to pro for arguments.
>Reason for Decision: "Convincing Arguments:
semperfortis
It was very tough judging this debate, and I think there was potential for each of you to do much better (such as bring up the facts and statistics, like the ratio of transgenders to transsexuals and such, or something, idk anymore), but it seems that semperfortis has won. As I understand it, Speedrace had never effectively argued against semperfortis's claim that there is no basis for gender and it is therefore meaningless. Speedrace had shown it to seem highly ridiculous, but not in a logical way that directly countered the somewhat hard-to-see most important claims in semperfortis's argument. Con had given evidence that there is little need for the change, as well as that there is an opportunity cost to changing things later, but Pro asserted that there is little cost to this change, balancing Con's assertion (there was no refutation of this), then giving his reasons mentioned above, not adequately countered, as to why it is a worthwhile change.
P.S, I wrote a lot more but ended up deleting it..., this was an odd and hard-to-judge debate in my opinion.
Most Reliable Sources:
Tie. No impact on Debate.
Better Spelling and Grammar:
Tie. No impact on Debate.
Better Conduct:
Tie. No impact on Debate.
Reason for Mod Action>This vote is not eligible to vote. In order to vote, an account must: (1) Read the site’s COC AND have completed 2 non-troll/non-FF debate OR have 100 forum posts.
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Thank you for taking the time to vote. The intent of that comment was to ensure that I wouldn't win automatically by virtue of him forfeiting.
Btw I never read your comment "We can do a rematch after this debate then. To the voters, compare arguments as if Speedrace never forfeited." but I figured that it wouldn't really matter anyway, unless there was something else he needed to say.
Sure. You would have to run me through everything and only if you are able to deal with a Scottish accent.
Would you be down to debate this? In a live debate, via Google Hangouts.
A debate via an audio call (e.g., on Google Hangouts) rather than a text-based debate.
A live debate?
That would be cool
I’d be happy to do a live debate on this at some point. (From Con.)
We can do a rematch after this debate then. To the voters, compare arguments as if Speedrace never forfeited.
Urg, DART doesn’t send me email notifications anymore so I forgot, I apologize dude, this was a good debate and I botched it :/
I understand.
I didn't realize I was supposed to rebut in the last round...I usually don't defend and rebut in the same round though so that was confusing
Yes sir
You too sir :)
This is actually turning out to be like a super interesting debate so stay tuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuned