1503
rating
26
debates
46.15%
won
Topic
#1167
Free Wins on DDO?
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
18
0
Better sources
12
2
Better legibility
6
1
Better conduct
6
0
After 6 votes and with 39 points ahead, the winner is...
Club
Tags
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- Two days
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
1702
rating
574
debates
67.86%
won
Description
Yet another debate on DDO
Round 1
Con
#2
Plagiarism note: I am partially using my own arguments from the Comments section. I have full permission from myself to post this as my own work here.
The entire concept of voting is a soft-enforced rule. What that means is that Juggle itself and the website's official documents such as terms of use etc all leave absolutely no official voting restrictions. This entails that you can (genuinely, not just pre-vote-mod) vote for someone who had their opponent is FF'ing every single Round if their debate was bad enough. Both versions (DART and DDO) have loopholes. In DA the loopholes or is patched in a strange way. If you concede openly and your opponent FFs, the only way to vote correctly is that people should give you Conduct and not give either side the other points but most will tie it.Anyway, since every element of DDO entails risk of a loss even in as extreme a scenario as FF (which is only ever guaranteed at the price of risking a ban for collusion and/or alt-abuse) then no free win exists.
^ This was written after the debate was accepted by me, meaning it's entirely fair even from a time-spent-thinking perspective.
I will love to use a source to introduce equity to you.
WHAT IS POKER EQUITY?In poker, equity refers to the portion of the pot that is yours based on the likelihood (percentage) that you’ll win the hand at a certain point in time. (To put it another way, equity is the percentage of the time you should win a poker hand.)As an example, if there is $1,000 in the pot, and you are currently an 80% favourite to win the hand, your pot equity is $800.Subsequently, the general winning poker strategy you should follow when you have an equity advantage over your opponent is to bet for value.
- Matthew Cluff June 4th 2018 https://www.888poker.com/magazine/strategy/how-poker-equity-can-make-your-game-invincible
This concept applies to DDO debates. Since the 'accept' button there isn't exactly the point at which the full risk is taken, let's go further. The idea behind free wins is different with and without Full Forfeits.
DDO as is, is a site where if your opponent forfeits, you no longer get the loss (check comments section and stuff for 'proof' as well as looking at DDO itself as this seems to change monthly or something). Alternatively, what happens is your opponent will forfeit Rounds if they don't make it in time but there was always an aception which Pro will likely point out:
If you forfeit the very first Round as the Contender, you don't get a loss, the debate is 'undone'. This simply means it's safer to accept but doesn't actually mean that it's free.
Let's consider site-rep, getting banned and many other factors here. It's never ever a guaranteed win, ever. There is always a chance of someone defeating you because in DDO even a full forfeit can be lost as voters can justify it if your argument was that terrible. Aside from that, you can never truly fully know that they're being banned unless you're like a moderator there and know with extreme certainty that the user is never coming back. The issue is that banned users on DDO had their open challenges deleted. I can't prove it and it's very easy for my opponent to say I'm lying but basically the only time you were debating a banned user was if they got banned during your debate.
Even if they were banned, you only would truly know they'd never be forgiven or something if you were a moderator and honestly even then it's a gamble unless yo'ure the head admin, seriously think about it the point is that there's still the slightest chance you lose. Similarly, in poker you are only ever the 100% winner after already risking chips to even see enough cards to know that (the risk was before you knew).
Even if you used alts and arranged votebombs last minute, they can be removed post-ending (but new votes cant be added) meaning 'free wins' always had limitations at every stage of DDO debates.
Round 2
Pro
#3
Thanks for Accepting the Debate!
Moving On
Definition:
Free Win:
A win that required minimal effort to achieve or a very easy win.
"RationalMadman got a free win from Club in a Santa Claus debate.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The entire concept of voting is a soft-enforced rule. What that means is that Juggle itself and the website's official documents such as terms of use etc all leave absolutely no official voting restrictions. This entails that you can (genuinely, not just pre-vote-mod) vote for someone who had their opponent is FF'ing every single Round if their debate was bad enough. Both versions (DART and DDO) have loopholes. In DA the loopholes or is patched in a strange way. If you concede openly and your opponent FFs, the only way to vote correctly is that people should give you Conduct and not give either side the other points but most will tie it.Anyway, since every element of DDO entails risk of a loss even in as extreme a scenario as FF (which is only ever guaranteed at the price of risking a ban for collusion and/or alt-abuse) then no free win exists.
According to our meaning, if there are no actual voting policies, then it is very easy to get a win, for absolutely no reason at all.
WHAT IS POKER EQUITY?In poker, equity refers to the portion of the pot that is yours based on the likelihood (percentage) that you’ll win the hand at a certain point in time. (To put it another way, equity is the percentage of the time you should win a poker hand.)As an example, if there is $1,000 in the pot, and you are currently an 80% favourite to win the hand, your pot equity is $800.Subsequently, the general winning poker strategy you should follow when you have an equity advantage over your opponent is to bet for value.- Matthew Cluff June 4th 2018 https://www.888poker.com/magazine/strategy/how-poker-equity-can-make-your-game-invincibleThis concept applies to DDO debates. Since the 'accept' button there isn't exactly the point at which the full risk is taken, let's go further. The idea behind free wins is different with and without Full Forfeits.
DDO as is, is a site where if your opponent forfeits, you no longer get the loss (check comments section and stuff for 'proof' as well as looking at DDO itself as this seems to change monthly or something). Alternatively, what happens is your opponent will forfeit Rounds if they don't make it in time but there was always an aception which Pro will likely point out:If you forfeit the very first Round as the Contender, you don't get a loss, the debate is 'undone'. This simply means it's safer to accept but doesn't actually mean that it's free.Let's consider site-rep, getting banned and many other factors here. It's never ever a guaranteed win, ever. There is always a chance of someone defeating you because in DDO even a full forfeit can be lost as voters can justify it if your argument was that terrible. Aside from that, you can never truly fully know that they're being banned unless you're like a moderator there and know with extreme certainty that the user is never coming back. The issue is that banned users on DDO had their open challenges deleted. I can't prove it and it's very easy for my opponent to say I'm lying but basically the only time you were debating a banned user was if they got banned during your debate.Even if they were banned, you only would truly know they'd never be forgiven or something if you were a moderator and honestly even then it's a gamble unless yo'ure the head admin, seriously think about it the point is that there's still the slightest chance you lose. Similarly, in poker you are only ever the 100% winner after already risking chips to even see enough cards to know that (the risk was before you knew).Even if you used alts and arranged votebombs last minute, they can be removed post-ending (but new votes cant be added) meaning 'free wins' always had limitations at every stage of DDO debates.
Yes but we are arguing if there are free wins, not that every debate on DDO has free wins.
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Dsjpk5 METHOD
By debating backwardseden, you will get free wins via dsjpk5, even if you FF, dsjpk5 will vote for you..
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
RFD in comments
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
No forfeit
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Full forfeiture.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Con FF the majority of the rounds, that's poor conduct!
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Forfeit, I'm now 3 for 3 when I say easy win in comments, let's go!
Forfeited debates aren't moderated
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments ✔ ✗ ✗ 3 points
Better sources ✔ ✗ ✗ 2 points
Better spelling and grammar ✔ ✗ ✗ 1 point
Better conduct ✔ ✗ ✗ 1 point
Reason: PRO FFs 75% of debate.
If repeated, I think this works better as an unrated debate topic.
What is DA and FF
I am here to ask everyone, who has an account in DDO? Make friends with me there! My account there is same as here
yeah, but mostly
"By debating backwardseden, you will get free wins via dsjpk5, even if you FF, dsjpk5 will vote for you.."
Not as much anymore:(, and forfeit glitch
Sure RM said it doesn't matter so make sure you have additional arguments if that fails. I only thought of that at the top of my head.
I used your argument, I need permission.
It doesn't matter of he uses that. I'm going to prove that free wins don't exist on ddo.
The entire concept of voting is a soft-enforced rule. What that means is that Juggle itself and the website's official documents such as terms of use etc all leave absolutely no official voting restrictions. This entails that you can (genuinely, not just pre-vote-mod) vote for someone who had their opponent is FF'ing every single Round if their debate was bad enough.
Both versions (DART and DDO) have loopholes. In DA the loopholes or is patched in a strange way. If you concede openly and your opponent FFs, the only way to vote correctly is that people should give you Conduct and not give either side the other points but most will tie it.
Anyway, since every element of DDO entails risk of a loss even in as extreme a scenario as FF (which is only ever guaranteed at the price of risking a ban for collusion and/or alt-abuse) then no free and n exists.
I will use game theory and poker terms like 'equity' to explain why the risk is a real thing at the point of accepting the debate and not an imaginary thing that is undone by how obviously bad an opponent seems.
If you use my example as your only example RM can say that you cheated or something since my argument came before yours.
"Free Wins on DDO?"
getting some free wins on DART .
Yes debate backwardseden. Wait for dsjpk5 to vote for you. Done.
Ok,
ARE THERE FREE WINS ON DDO?
Me: Yes RM: No
sorry that was my reckless cousin, he's been causing trouble a lot.
cndy unikurn galopang sunshone.
Free win for RM then.
MONKEY FACE DJSOJFWAJEPWAJFPWAJMKEFK;LWANEIPFDKLM
You didn't really explain what this debate was about.
Does RM know or are we supposed to wait until Round 2 to know what this debate is about.
@RM
"You can stay blocked for a week to remember this mistake."
LOL, I needed that laugh thanks!
You can stay blocked for a week to remember this mistake.
Mr. RM
I think you already saw the message but sorry. Blocked by accident.
Club blocked me for some reason. Interesting...
No, I'll use poker theory to win.
In that case I could take this but he'd just argue that FFs happened at all or something
@RM
It's back
No I'm saying that there are free wins on DDO.
Forfeit glitch ended a while back. The adspam 'fixes' involved a change that fixed the forfeit glitch.
so you are endorsing forfeits and tautology in online debating generally, or just DDO specificallly?
Free Wins:
When someone either gives you a FF, a only one side can win debate, or a easily defended debate, for example (Trees are plants).
It’s still no at all clear what you’re meaning by free wins
"Are there free wins on DDO?"
No, no one votes and the forfeit glitch stops all debates
I see most of the people are confused it's :
Are there free wins on DDO?
Is there a verb for this resolution? Still not clear if DDO is subject or accident
Bump.
But what exactly about free wins? What are they, what are you arguing for? What would I be arguing against?
Ram:
Free Wins
Ragnar:
Getting Free Wins on DART is good, I mean there's no possible way that someone can defend DDO unless they pull out some philosophical crap.
An objective waste of time, as it's DDO.
What is the debate about?