Instigator / Pro
2
1614
rating
17
debates
85.29%
won
Topic
#1101
Will more socialization benefit society?
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
6
Better sources
0
4
Better legibility
2
2
Better conduct
0
2
After 2 votes and with 12 points ahead, the winner is...
Wylted
Tags
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- Two days
- Max argument characters
- 10,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
14
1387
rating
34
debates
22.06%
won
Description
Pro: Benefit
Con: Harmful
Due to the nature of this topic, I do not have to prove why anything is moral, You have to prove to me why it is immoral. I will be providing a few reasons why more socialization would be moral however the BoP rests mostly on pro. However, before we begin I would like to define Socialism and the Redistribution of wealth.
Socialism: A state at which they redistribute wealth which is used for the collective good.
Redistribution of Wealth: Redistribution of income and redistribution of wealth are respectively the transfer of income and of wealth (including physical property) from some individuals to others by means of a social mechanism.
Tiwaz is banned from participating in this debate due to him continually pulling red herrings, dodging questions and points, and attempting to character assassinate several people.
If he accepts he completely forfeits the debate.
Round 1
Pro
#1
Alright finally got an opponent!
- Looks at their profile -
Great a troll who's lost 14 debates, doesn't take debates seriously and believes the world is flat...
Well, whatever I'll do my best and I hope my opponent doesn't troll this debate.
Then again me saying that will probably make him want to do it more but whatever, let's begin!
QUESTIONS:
Before we begin I understand my opponent is a libertarian however I want specifics.
- What's your position on the minimum wage?
- What's your position on mass immigration and illegal immigration?
- What's your opinion on the redistribution of wealth?
- Are you a conservative or anarcho libertarian?
These questions will be important for the next round.
Let's begin with too socialistic policies that would benefit the USA.
UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE
Affordability:
- One of the major arguments I hear against national healthcare is it would cost Trillions every year and would bankrupt America, While this is true it is a very one-sided argument and here's why. According to the Washington Post, Bernie's healthcare plan would cost 7. 35 trillion yearly, While private healthcare would cost 7. 7 Trillion yearly. It is very obvious that national healthcare would actually be cheaper than privatized healthcare. Therefore the affordability argument is debunked.
Universality:
- By the US implementing a national healthcare model, ALL Americans rich and poor alike would have access to healthcare. This would provide a number of benefits such as higher life expectancy, Better worker productivity, And an overall boost to happiness in America. This would also reduce the number of people going bankrupt in the US, According to the commonwealth fund, " 41 percent of working-age Americans" or 72 million people "have medical bill problems or are paying off medical debt, Up from 34 percent in 2005. " Very clearly many Americans are struggling with paying off health care debt, And by the US instituting national healthcare, This would alleviate that stress.
Quality:
- By far the most common argument I've heard against national healthcare is the wait times and the overall downturn in quality it brings. This is quite simply a baseless accusation that is not backed up by statistics at all. The US according to healthsystemtracker.org and Business insider, Wasn't even in the top 10 in life expectancy compared to it's higher counterparts with universal healthcare such as Japan, Switzerland, And Australia.
- Statistically, 45,000 people die from our privatized healthcare model, this is equivalent to a monthly 9/11.
- An argument I heard in the last debate was that the US has the best doctors in the world, therefore private healthcare is bad. Statistically, this is sorta true as according to countrydetail.com in 2016, the US only ranked #1 right behind Germany which has a mixed healthcare system. Besides other countries with national healthcare still rank high on the list, Norway, Canada, and Japan all have great doctors according to this list.
- Another common argument against the quality of national healthcare is the wait times in these countries. This is true for countries such as Canada, However, This is mostly for specialists and surgeries which of course are going to have longer wait times. The only reason the US doesn't have these long wait times is simply that less and fewer people have access to healthcare in the first place. However, Two countries with mixed systems do perform just as well as the United States does, So this seems to indicate that a private healthcare system is not necessary for short specialist wait times. Ask yourself what is more important, Wait times? Or the thousands of people who die due to not affording healthcare and the millions going bankrupt due to healthcare? Plus statistically according too, countries with mixed healthcare such as Germany and Switzerland have around the same wait times as the US does, what this means is that privatized healthcare doesn't automatically equal too faster wait times.
This is just one example of what a more socialistic economy would benefit society.
Once my opponent answers the questions I will bring up other examples such as education, collective bargaining, and heavier redistribution however I simply want to see what my opponent's stances are so that I don't waste time.
Anyways here are my sources for the universal healthcare portion,
Con
#2
Framework
Pro has a hard time making clear resolutions. Wish to remedy that. The 200 comments to the debate has made what Pro wants to debate very clear. He offered a simple descriptive definition of socialism. The definition can apply to a lot of things that nobody would consider socialism, so here is another definition that does not seek to replace pro’s but to merely elaborate upon it.
Socialism- any of the various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism
Pro asked me a series of questions that are irrelevant. I decided not to answer them. My personal opinions are not relevant to the debate only the position I am taking in the debate, but for anyone curious answers are in the comments.
I will be using the following structure to make this debate flow easier.
R1- Main Arguments
R2- Rebuttals
R3- Counter Rebuttals
R4- Closing
Arguments
The reason for the logical syllogisms is because it helps opponents who have a hard time systematically organizing their thoughts. When I do rebuttals, I will also try to help judges organize my opponents sporadic thoughts by organizing them into simple syllogisms.
Premise 1- economic freedom causes a higher standard of living.
Premise 2- Socialist policies are antithetical to economic freedom
Contention 1- socialist policies are responsible for a lower standard of living.
P1 Economic Freedom Causes a Higher Standard of Living
Countries more economically free on the economic freedom index (A measure of how free a country is economically) such as Australia, New Zealand and the Swedes, are places we would all like to visit. Even without going into the numbers, we know intuitively these are awesome places that we would love to experience. The bottom of the economic freedom index consists of countries that are a nightmare to live in such as Cuba, Venezuela and North Korea. https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking
Even without any of the following details, it should be obvious to us countries with more economic freedom are better to live in. Some may argue that this is merely a coincidence the best countries have more economic freedom than the worst ones. Perhaps my opponent will argue that Economic freedom is a response to the standard of living and not the cause of it. Perhaps Venezuela's socialist policies are a response to poverty and not the cause of it. Perhaps Australia only adopted policies allowing their people to have this sort of freedom as a response to their higher standard of living.
However the statistical data does not agree. Let’s examine some data that shows that not only does economic freedom directly correlate to the prosperity of a country, but some stats that also show it most likely causes more prosperity than would be achieved through decreasing economic freedom through things such as becoming more socialist. The following chart shows how much opportunity people have for entrepreneurism in more economically free countries. An activity that improves society by incentivizing cures for diseases or even by solving more mundane problems by giving us such things as cat litter, toilet paper and the personal computer.
https://www.heritage.org/index/images/book/2019/Chapter4/EF%202019%20CHAPTER%204%20CHARTS-1.png
When you look at the numbers for how much the average person can spend on essential items such as food to feed their family and look at how economically free a country is we can see that more economic freedom equals more ability to feed your family. See chart below.
https://www.heritage.org/index/images/book/2019/Chapter4/EF%202019%20CHAPTER%204%20CHARTS-2.png
Repressed economies (lower on the index. Less capitalistic and more socialist) have an average purchasing power of $7000 while capitalistic/free countries have a purchasing power of over $60,000.
Some people may argue that, sure economic freedom is good for the country it is applied to, because it exploits 3rd world countries. If this is true than increased economic freedom should have a negative overall impact on the world, however the data doesn’t agree with that assertion. The chart below shows a drop in poverty and increase in the world’s GDP that coincides with you guessed it,more economic freedom. This increase in GDP occurs before not after an increase in economic freedom.
https://www.heritage.org/index/images/book/2019/Chapter4/EF%202019%20CHAPTER%204%20CHARTS-3.png
Here is what an article posted by The Heritage Foundation has to say about the statistics they collected;
Unquestionably, the free-market system that is rooted in the principles of economic freedom—empowerment of the individual, nondiscrimination, and open competition—has fueled unprecedented economic growth. As Chart 3 illustrates, over the life of the Index, as the global economy has moved toward greater economic freedom, the world economy has doubled in size. This progress has lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty, and the global poverty rate has declined by two-thirds.
Opening the gates of prosperity to ever more people around the world, economic freedom has made our globe a profoundly better place. More people are living better lives than ever before. Clearly, this monumental reduction in global poverty is an achievement that should inspire celebration of the free-market system, deeper understanding of its dynamics, and greater commitment to its promotion.
https://www.heritage.org/index/book/chapter-4
The less economically free countries seem to be more repressed politically, more likely to be under a dictator and less politically free. It is as if when somebody has more money from the wealth created from shunning socialism and embracing a free economy they also have more power to influence the system in a more fair way as can be shown in the following chart. https://www.heritage.org/index/images/book/2019/Chapter4/EF%202019%20CHAPTER%204%20CHARTS-8.png
It turns out that when a country embraces economic freedom, we can see that redistribution of wealth becomes unnecessary as it creates both more upward mobility as well as a more even distribution of wealth. https://www.heritage.org/index/images/book/2019/Chapter4/EF%202019%20CHAPTER%204%20CHARTS-9.png
Many Marxists were originally concerned that if communist and socialist forces seized the means of power, that they would be reluctant to distribute the wealth equitably and instead horde it for themselves and their allies, which seems to be the case when any attempt to install socialism is applied. In summary= more socialist policies equals a less even distribution of resources. From a pragmatic point of view my opponent’s policies would actually backfire and do the opposite of what he intends. It’s nice he has good intentions, but he should research this stuff before assuming his good intentions will have good results and work on supporting policies that actually work at achieving his aims.
P2- Socialist policies are antithetical to economic freedom
The economic freedom index, measures 12 criteria to determine a country's economic freedom. The following criteria are what is relevant to the debate. government spending, tax burden, business freedom, labor freedom, monetary freedom, business freedom, labor freedom, monetary freedom. The Economic Freedom Index considers every part of the criteria important, and since the higher the score, the more likely you are to be a country with a positive present and future. Less poverty, better government, lower crime and a higher standard of living in just about every way possible. Let’s go down this list one by one.https://www.heritage.org/index/about
Government Spending
I don’t think this is debatable the more the government takes over the means of production in each sector the more it spends, since the government is not in the business of making profits, but of providing services. My opponent admits a socialist healthcare plan would cost the government over 7 trillion a year. This would put America even closer to the bottom of the Economic freedom index and closer to being just like Venezuela or North Korea. More government spending as a result of socialist policies is not even debatable.
Taxes
Obviously the government has to get the money they spend from somewhere, so tax rates will increase proportional to how much money is needed to fund socialist programs.
Business/Labor Freedom
Socialist programs such as universal healthcare require all kinds of new regulations that hamper the freedom of businesses and employees. This is obvious for healthcare, but can be seen in other industries as well such as the police force which has very strict rules for how police behave which limits employee/labor freedom and in some areas even unionized labor is banned from government jobs restricting employee labor even more. OSHA a socialist program to ensure employee safety does a lot to get in the way of business freedom with tons of regulations, The FDA another socialist program causes the process of getting a drug to market so expensive that only a handful of billion dollar companies can compete.
Monetary Freedom
Monetary freedom has to do with the stability of money. When a socialist country has to raise funds for new programs they will raise taxes, but they also use another strategy which is to simply print money. This is especially true in Democratic countries where citizens are typically opposed to having smaller paychecks.
C1 Socialist Policies Lower Standard of Living
The conclusion is derived from the fact that the economic freedom index is a good predictor for how high the standard of living is for citizens of a country. Socialist policies cause a country to become lower in the economic freedom index. The effects of which were proven in the P1 arguments. I look forward to offering rebuttals for my opponent’s arguments in Round 2.
R2- Rebuttals
R3- Counter Rebuttals
R4- Closing
Opening the gates of prosperity to ever more people around the world, economic freedom has made our globe a profoundly better place. More people are living better lives than ever before. Clearly, this monumental reduction in global poverty is an achievement that should inspire celebration of the free-market system, deeper understanding of its dynamics, and greater commitment to its promotion.
https://www.heritage.org/index/book/chapter-4
Round 2
Pro
#3
“ Socialism- any of the various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism “
- Firstly I agree with most of this definition, however, an integral part of socialism is the redistribution of wealth and resources which isn’t present in this definition but is present in other definitions.
- I’d also like to add how dishonest it’s to change definitions during the debate and not in the comment section or via PM. I’d ask for voters to please consider this in the conduct category.
If my opponent has further disagreements regarding the definitions I ask he/she messaged me via PM or in the comment section rather than in the middle of the debate, anyways moving right along.
“ Pro asked me a series of questions that are irrelevant. I decided not to answer them. My personal opinions are not relevant to the debate only the position I am taking in the debate, but for anyone, curious answers are in the comments.”
- For anyone reading this, Con’s personal beliefs are very much relevant to this debate as we’ll see later on in my argument.
“Countries more economically free on the economic freedom index (A measure of how free a country is economical) such as Australia, New Zealand, and the Swedes, are places we would all like to visit. Even without going into the numbers, we know intuitively these are awesome places that we would love to experience. The bottom of the economic freedom index consists of countries that are a nightmare to live in such as Cuba, Venezuela, and North Korea. https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking”
- I don’t see a point in this statement, we aren’t trying to destroy economic freedom as found in dictatorships, we’re trying to create a fair distribution and have stricter business regulations.
- We aren’t trying to restrict freedom of trade unreasonably as my opponent is trying to make out.
- Also, the countries that ironically my opponent sites are actually countries with higher levels of socialization which disproves my opponent's point since if truly more socialistic policies decreased economic freedom than why are these countries ranked so highly?
The next section my opponent sites statistics to back this poor hypothesis up which don’t need to be debunked since I already proved the hypothesis to be wrong. Therefore we’re going to ignore the statistics.
Also another point I’d like to add, my opponent does little to elaborate as to how these countries are socialistic.
If we actually delve into these countries it appears they aren’t.
Firstly, here's the definition of fascism for the next segment.
“ In fascism, the people are looked at as a bundle — one body that must be controlled by the government with absolute force. There’s no option to vote, no chance to impeach a leader, and no freedom to stand up against the governing body.”
- Which ideology between socialism and fascism argues for the dictatorship policies Cuba and North Korea exert? Fascism.
- Which ideology is anti-democratic? Fascism.
Also, this point is irrelevant since I am arguing for democratic socialism, not a dictatorship. Under these definitions, the countries my opponent has cited are more closely related to fascism than socialism and are irrelevant since I am arguing for social democracy and not a dictatorship.
While these countries do label themselves as socialist, well north Korea states they’re a democratic republic so this logic fails. People label themselves as something all the time but that doesn’t make it true.
Nextly,
“ P2- Socialist policies are antithetical to economic freedom “
- Very obviously not the case since if this was the case then more socialized countries in Europe and Australia wouldn’t be rated high.
- If my opponent is than going to argue,
“ Well that means these countries aren’t socialist “
Well, these countries have high minimum wages either through collective bargaining or governmental, high government spending, high tax rates, and socialized medicine and education.
“ My opponent admits a socialist healthcare plan would cost the government over 7 trillion a year. This would put America even closer to the bottom of the Economic freedom index and closer to being just like Venezuela or North Korea. More government spending as a result of socialist policies is not even debatable.”
- My opponent has either intentionally or unintentionally missed the point I was making.
To give the benefit of the doubt I’ll explain it again source in the previous argument.
Nationalized healthcare costs 7 trillion, private costs 7.7 trillion, therefore, the private option is more expensive.
This is a simple concept, I spend 1,500 dollars on private healthcare. Now that’s nationalized I have to pay 1,000 dollars.
However now since I don’t have to pay for private I save 500 dollars.
If my opponent ignores this again, he/she is intentionally misrepresenting the point and he/she should be docked a conduct point.
“ Socialist programs such as universal healthcare require all kinds of new regulations that hamper the freedom of businesses and employees.”
- Ok how please elaborate.
Do you not believe businesses are helped when there are more workers due to fewer workers dying, more healthy workers, and an increasement of productivity?
Statistics to these are found in my previous argument.
“ OSHA a socialist program to ensure employee safety does a lot to get in the way of business freedom with tons of regulations, The FDA another socialist program causes the process of getting a drug to market so expensive that only a handful of billion dollar companies can compete.”
- Ok please elaborate on how these regulations are specifically hurting businesses.
Explain how employee safety isn’t a priority? Same with regulations on the drug market which keep corporations in check from charging 4,000 dollars for a life-saving drug which only costs 40 dollars to make?
SOURCES:
NOTE, sources for healthcare are found in the previous argument thank you.
ALSO, if I've accidentally left out sources for my claims please inform me and I'll gladly provide sources.
Con
#4
Pro argued for socialized healthcare this round to support to more socialism. This round will focus on that. My R3 will be for addressing most of R2, but it is necessary to address a few things from it.
Definitions
Here is what pro says;
“I’d also like to add how dishonest it’s to change definitions during the debate and not in the comment section or via PM. I’d ask for voters to please consider this in the conduct category.”
“here is another definition that does not seek to replace pro’s but to merely elaborate upon it”
“This would provide a number of benefits such as higher life expectancy”
My opponent’s sources lacks evidence for some statistics showing Americans have a lower life expectancy than some countries with socialized medicine. We actually have a pretty good healthcare system in America and the problems it does have can be fixed by deregulation of it and other industries that affect it. Other explanations for the lifespan of Americans is the fact that 37% of Americans are fat. Universal healthcare isn’t going to fix how shitty the American diet is or the lifestyle decisions that result in poor health. Obesity is linked to higher Cancer, diabetes, and heart disease rates as well as a lot of other problems. I'm not sure why my opponent thinks that lack of socialized medicine is what is causing lower lifespans. https://obesity.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=006032
Americans also seem to be more likely to be the victims of violent crimes that end in death, though being safer from violent crime in general. https://www.criminaljusticedegreehub.com/violent-crime-us-abroad/
I don’t see a link between life expectancy and socialized medicine, that can’t be better explained from other things such as the fat Americans are fat, are more likely to murder and be murdered than what happens in other wealthy nations and are also more likely to die from diseases that are a direct result of being fat.
Pro's assertions that Americans would be more productive (many of us are already hurting our mental and physical health by embracing the cult of productivity) is simply unproven and as it stands is a bare assertion. Bare assertions should not be taken as fact, and are in fact are a logical fallacy. http://www.toolkitforthinking.com/critical-thinking/anatomy-of-an-argument/deductive-logic-arguments/bare-assertion-fallacy
He makes the same fallacy by claiming socialized medicine will somehow make people happier. Bare assertions should be easily dismissed.
Deaths from uninsured
Pro makes the says;
“45,000 people die from privatized healthcare model, this is equivalent to .... 9/11.”
“A study by the Fraser Institute titled The Effect of Wait Times on Mortality in Canada estimated that “increases in wait times for medically necessary care in Canada between 1993 and 2009 may have resulted in between 25,456 and 63,090 (with a middle value of 44,273) additional deaths among females.” Adjusting for the difference in populations (the US has about 9 times as many people), that middle value inflates to an estimated 400,000 additional deaths among females over a 16 year period. This translates to an estimated 25,000 additional female deaths each year if the American system were to suffer from increased mortality similar to that experienced in Canada due to increases in wait times. “
“the US has significantly lower rates of 30-day stroke-induced mortality than every other OECD country, aside from Japan and Korea. OECD data suggest that the age- and sex-adjusted mortality rates within Europe would translate to tens of thousands of additional deaths in the US.
If America had the 30-day stroke-mortality rate of the UK, for example, we could expect about an additional 38,000 deaths a year. For Canada, that number would be around 43,500. And this only accounts for mortality within a month of having a stroke, which in turn accounts for only 10% of stroke-related deaths.”
For every 1,000 strokes in America 170 people die. The number is 280 in similar countries who have socialized medicine.
The United States has very high cancer survival rates, much higher than countries with socialized medicine. If we use the UK survival rates this would be an additional 80,000 deaths a year with other 1st world countries using socialized medicine the additional deaths would be about 20,000 a year.
If the deaths caused by privatized medicine are 9/11 numbers, the deaths caused by socialized medicine would be more comparable to the Holocaust
Affordability
If healthcare is unaffordable it is because of more “socialization”. If we look at the root causes of why healthcare is unaffordable we can remove those root causes and make it affordable again. Whether the costs are 7.75 trillion or my opponents solution to the problem which has healthcare cost 7.36 trillion it is too high.
Those costs even at 7.36 trillion would be the highest costs in the world. https://www.wbur.org/commonhealth/2018/03/13/us-health-costs-high-jha
What started this whole mess of health care costs began back when FDR was president. He enacted socialist wage controls and taxed businesses up to 80% but did give tax breaks to them based on the benefits provided. Many employers as a way to attract talent since wages were controlled offered health insurance and with the tax break it did not really cost them much more money to do it. https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-obamacare-health-care-employers-20170224-story.html
Once everyone had employer paid health insurance they no longer knew what they were actually paying for a stay in the hospital. Whether the hospital charged $2000 or $200 for the stay in it still only cost the individual their same copay of maybe $50. Same problem with medicine. No matter whether the company charges $40 or $400 for a pill, your copay might be $5.
Shane Snow explains it this way;
“ If you have health insurance through your job, you’re two layers away from the actual cost of your health care whenever you go to the doctor, hospital, or pharmacy. Between you and the price tag is 1) an insurance company; and 2) your employer.(who pays for some of your insurance)”
A better plan would be getting rid of health insurance and taking perhaps half the money we use on subsidizing insurance companies directly or indirectly and diverting that to things that can actually help the healthcare in America like preventing bad diet and promoting healthy living to the masses, reducing the actual contributors to bad health such as obesity which in turn will prevent a lot of diabetes, heart disease and cancer.
Even without chopping that amount of socialization in half with the program I recommend, just the steps to discourage buying health insurance would make Americans more aware of the real prices they are paying for healthcare forcing companies to become competitive with their prices. You might see a doctor that costs $100 an hour as opposed to one costing $250 an hour if you have no insurance and are not so far removed from knowing the prices of services.
Conclusion
I have proven that Healthcare costs can be better controlled through less socialization as opposed to more. I have proven that private healthcare kills less people than socialized medicine, and I have proven that even if socialized medicine improves the portion it is meant to improve it is still a net detriment to society as a whole. Vote Con
Round 3
Pro
#5
“ The conduct point petition is ridiculous. My opponent insulted me by calling me a troll and mocked my debate record, which was mostly a result of my long torturous bout with depression. If anyone deserves a conduct point. It’s me.”
Moving on,
“ My opponent’s sources lack evidence for some statistics showing Americans have a lower life expectancy than some countries with socialized medicine. We actually have a pretty good healthcare system in America and the problems it does have can be fixed by deregulation of it and other industries that affect it.”
“ Other explanations for the lifespan of Americans is the fact that 37% of Americans are fat. Universal healthcare isn’t going to fix how shitty the American diet is or the lifestyle decisions that result in poor health.”
I mean do you seriously not believe healthcare eases obesity rates down and helps with lifestyle choices? I could imagine doctors appointments and speak with nutritionists more would ease this issue down.
“ I'm not sure why my opponent thinks that lack of socialized medicine is what is causing lower lifespans.”
By your insane logic with more deregulation equaling better healthcare, the US should have the best and highest life spans in the world since it’s the most privatized.
“ Pro's assertions that Americans would be more productive (many of us are already hurting our mental and physical health by embracing the cult of productivity) is simply unproven and as it stands is a bare assertion.”
“ For every 1,000 strokes in America, 170 people die. The number is 280 in similar countries who have socialized medicine.”
“ Whether the costs are 7.75 trillion or my opponent's solution to the problem which has a healthcare cost 7.36 trillion it is too high.
Those costs even at 7.36 trillion would be the highest costs in the world. https://www.wbur.org/commonhealth/2018/03/13/us-health-costs-high-jha”
I find it troubling that literally, every single country in the world with socialized medicine has statistically WAY lower healthcare costs than the US does. As evidenced by this 2014 statistic from zerohedge a 2018 study by healthcaresystemtracker.org. The US is pretty much ALL statistics is the outlier and has significantly higher healthcare costs per capita than every single country in the world.
Therefore my opponent just lost the affordability argument, arguments made against a national healthcare system are absurd and baseless.
Also, my opponent's healthcare plan isn’t a very good plan and has never worked before.
You may call this a fallacy however why would we change our system to a system which has been proven to work to a system which may work?
I’ve been teasing this argument since round 1 and in the comment section so I’ll bring it up here since I accidentally forgot it last round.
Firstly before we begin I’d like to post what my opponent's answers to my questions are as it will be important to this argument.
“ I won't answer the questions in the debate, but since you are curious I will answer them here.
- What's your position on the minimum wage?
That it should be abolished, but I think wages are close to the market rate now so not that important but it could be in the future.
- What's your position on mass immigration and illegal immigration?
I am mostly opposed to them. I have no problem with legal immigration, as far as mass immigration it is usually harmful to the society and particularly women left behind mass migration so it should be avoided.
- What's your opinion on the redistribution of wealth?
Other than a basic minimum income, it should be avoided.
- Are you a conservative or anarcho libertarian?
Closer to libertarian, and libertarians are usually pro-government not anarchist.”
These questions clearly illustrate that my opponent is being logically inconsistent and sort of hypocritical and here’s why.
If you’re a libertarian/huge capitalist but are also an economic nationalist concerned with mass immigration and illegal immigration you’re a shill.
The capitalists AREN’T conservative since it’s in their economic self-interest to abolish the minimum wage ( which you’re advocating for ) and to support illegal and mass immigration since they believe it’ll shrink the native wages thus hurting the native working class you’re so concerned with.
A better solution would be more socialization to help native workers since if you instituted a minimum wage you wouldn’t be getting such mass immigration and your native wages wouldn’t shrink.
Not to mention that libertarianism calls for the free market, so if you’re a huge capitalist why are you trying to restrict the flow of labor when you believe in the free market?
Also, libertarianism isn’t pro-government as all, libertarianism is actually more pro anarchist since it’s against the redistribution of wealth/taxes and calls for laissez-faire capitalism which is against the government regulation of the economy.
Very clearly my opponent's economic nationalist ideals wouldn’t be served under a capitalist system but more under a more socialized system which institutes a high minimum wage and immigration reform which would aid the native working class. Thus more socialization in your economic nationalist view would benefit society than a pure capitalist system which you’re advocating for.
SOURCES:
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/how-do-healthcare-prices-and-use-in-the-u-s-compare-to-other-countries/
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-06-22/us-healthcare-snapshot-most-expensive-yet-worst-developed-world
- Well listen I didn’t mean to mock your win ratio, I merely used it to illustrate that it’s very possible you may be a troll. Oh, and I am sincerely sorry you had to deal with depression, one of my family members suffers from it too.
- Obviously looking at your arguments, it doesn’t seem that way.
- Also regarding the definitions, ok that makes sense.
- Firstly my opponent mentions no studies or statistics on how deregulation would fix the healthcare system since by my statistics the US which has the lowest regulation and is the most privatized is the WORST out of the developed world. Compared to more socialized countries such as Switzerland, Japan, and Australia, the US’s is pathetic.
- Secondly, the sources for this point were in the previous round. If I did happen to make a mistake I apologize and I’ll post my sources again in this round, sorry for the confusion.
- This is a very common argument made and is a very horrible one to make.
- Firstly, other countries such as Germany for example ( which is a country that’s very similar to the US in culture ) and has similar obesity rates. This is a country that its VERY close to the US culturally and has similar obesity rates and yet since it has socialized medicine.
- Because EVERY single country in the developed world has socialized medicine with higher life spans.
- I would also state you’ve committed a bare assertion fallacy since you’re the one assuming deregulation would lead to better healthcare outcomes ( which isn’t backed up by statistical data or common sense at all ).
- Admittedly I didn’t cite my source so I’ll do it here, according to this CDC study healthcare is linked to a boost in productivity. ( link down below however I’ll summarize a few bullet points here )
- Healthier employees are less likely to call in sick or use vacation time due to illness
- Companies that support workplace health have a greater percentage of employees at work every day
- Because employee health frequently carries over into better health behavior that impacts both the employee and their family (such as nutritious meals cooked at home or increased physical activity with the family), employees may miss less work caring for ill family members as well
- Similarly, workplace health programs can reduce presenteeism — the measurable extent to which health symptoms, conditions, and diseases adversely affect the work productivity of individuals who choose to remain at work
- Firstly I cited the source in the PAST argument.
- Secondly, this study is working on ASSUMED numbers, not actual numbers like my study are.
- Thirdly this is only a comparison of Canada which isn’t representative of socialized medicine since it’s arguably the worst example. Compare a better system like the United Kindoms or Australias and you’ll find there aren’t as many deaths.
- Fourthly you’re only taking into account yearly deaths when we also should be concerned with life expectancies and overall health outcomes.
- Statistically by my previous statistics, socialized countries with socialized medicine have higher life expectancies, better health outcomes, and cheaper and more affordable healthcare. ( We’ll get into the affordability argument shortly ).
Those costs even at 7.36 trillion would be the highest costs in the world. https://www.wbur.org/commonhealth/2018/03/13/us-health-costs-high-jha”
- Socialized medicine in the US would be the most expensive in the world, however, my opponent is still missing the overall point that I'd be CHEAPER than our current healthcare system. Therefore you just lost the affordability argument.
- What's your position on the minimum wage?
That it should be abolished, but I think wages are close to the market rate now so not that important but it could be in the future.
- What's your position on mass immigration and illegal immigration?
I am mostly opposed to them. I have no problem with legal immigration, as far as mass immigration it is usually harmful to the society and particularly women left behind mass migration so it should be avoided.
- What's your opinion on the redistribution of wealth?
Other than a basic minimum income, it should be avoided.
- Are you a conservative or anarcho libertarian?
Closer to libertarian, and libertarians are usually pro-government not anarchist.”
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/how-do-healthcare-prices-and-use-in-the-u-s-compare-to-other-countries/
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-06-22/us-healthcare-snapshot-most-expensive-yet-worst-developed-world
Con
#6
Syllogism
Pro does not attack the syllogism. If my premises are correct than I win.
I argued that countries who have less freedom on the economic freedom scale, have worse standards of living. pro drops this point, so my premise stands.
pro focuses on the fact that some low ranked countries are fascist, which is irrelevant, my premise is that countries who do good on the economic freedom index, have a higher standard of living.
Premise 2 is that socialist policies harm economic freedom as measured by the index. I used 5 standards on the index to show how socialist policies harm economic freedom through taxes, business/labor freedom and monetary freedom.
Pro has accepted premise 1 and that the conclusion is accurate if the premises are accurate. Pro asked why regulations hurt businesses, I guess that is supposed to be a rebuttal, but I already explained to him that it lowers your score on the economic freedom index. He dropped my argument that a higher index score means a higher standard of living.
Pro says many of the countries on the top of the index have some socialist policies, but that is irrelevant. This is about whether more socialization will have more benefits than harms, and I already have shown how socialist policies give you lower scores on those 5 factors mentioned earlier.
Questions
Pro needs to prove more socialization is good. Proving my beliefs are inconsistent, contradictory, stupid or wrong does nothing to move this debate along because it is irrelevant.
Life expectancy
My facts better explain shorter lives than pro's do. 1 was, Americans are more likely to die from violence than in other similar countries. Explanation 2 is how fat Americans are.
pro mentions that Germany has the same obesity rate as America. He drops my violent crime argument.
His study doesn’t do justice to how fat Americans are. We have the same obesity rates as Germany but our fat people are fatter. The German male weighs 180 lbs. The average American 200 lbs. The German female 150 lbs. The average American 170 lbs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_body_weight#By_country
Less of a fatness is linked to lower mortality rate in diabetes patients, heart patients cancer victims etc, and when we look at the actuary charts we see that somebody 20 lbs too fat is less likely to die than somebody 40 lbs too fat. So 20 pounds matter. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2714501
Pro asks;
pro's sources only support his argument that Americans have shorter lifespans, not why.
“I mean do you seriously not believe healthcare eases obesity rates down and helps with lifestyle choices?"
“Don’t you think it’s a pretty big coincidence that the US which is the ONLY country in the developed world without socialized medicine is also coincidentally the one with the lowest life spans? “
Round 4
Pro
#7
Economic freedom:
Pro focuses on the fact that some low ranked countries are fascist, which is irrelevant, my premise is that countries who do good on the economic freedom index, have a higher standard of living.
- And Con seems to be missing my previous counter argument being,
Also, the countries that ironically my opponent sites are actually countries with higher levels of socialization which disproves my opponent's point since if truly more socialistic policies decreased economic freedom than why are these countries ranked so highly?
- To clarify, I agree economic freedom and efficiency are important however clearly more socialization in countries such as Australia and the UK aren’t being held back in terms of freedom since they rank higher or around the same level as the US in the statistical my opponent cited.
Premise 2 is that socialist policies harm economic freedom... I used 5 standards.. to show how socialist policies harm economic freedom
- This point is easily debunked since similar to the first premise, more socialist countries rank as high if not higher than the US.
Pro says many of the countries on the top of the index have some socialist policies, but that is irrelevant...socialist policies give you lower scores
It actually is relevant, if the countries at the top of the index have more heavy socialization than the US and have more economic freedom which thereby increases the quality of living, this defeats this entire premise that more socialist countries restrict freedom more thus debunking this entire argument.
pro's sources only support his argument that Americans have shorter lifespans, not why.
- Americans have shorter lifespans due to private healthcare industries high costs as evidenced by the statistic I cited previously which puts the US’s healthcare plan the highest in terms of costs in the world. If the healthcare is so expensive as it is, you’re going to have people not going to check-ups or stalling on surgeries due to the high medical costs and you’re going to have millions of underinsured Americans as evidenced by the statistics I previously cited.
1 was, Americans are more likely to die from violence than in other similar countries. Explanation 2 is how fat Americans are.
Obesity:
Very clearly obesity rates aren’t determinant in life expectancy rates and a more likely and realistic explanation is that healthcare is what mainly is determinant of life expectancy. From my previous statistics I’ve sited millions go underinsured, thousands die, and our life expectancies are dropping and are pathetically low in our private system.
Con’s assertions that they’re almost determinant regardless of healthcare plan is a misrepresentation at best and dishonest at worst.
When a bad country such as Cuba which is very horrible is only slightly behind us, that should give an indicator that our healthcare system needs massive reform.
Murder rates:
1 was, Americans are more likely to die from violence than in other similar countries.
The murder rate has been steadily dropping so by my opponents logic our life expectancy should be increasing, which simply isn’t backed up by statistics at all.
In fact, according to various sources, I've linked. the US’s life expectancy has been steadily declining over the past few years even with the murder and violence rates dropping.
You could bring up an argument about mental health, however countries with national healthcare such as Germany for instance cover mental health, unlike the expensive US system in which mental health is covered by private healthcare providers.
And as we all know mental health greatly impacts suicide rates.
If mental health services were universal like in countries such as Norway and Germany, the suicide rates would generally drop. This is also ignoring a country such as Finland with similar suicide rates and yet a high life expectancy.
Nutrition advice:
Note how I clarified by stating nutritionists which are covered by a national healthcare plan and even provided in services such as Medicaid.
- A country such as Russia with low obesity rates has lower life expectancy or equal than the US, same with Cuba and Chile.
- What about New Zealand which is a country with a close obesity rate with the US and yet has a significantly higher life expectancy?
People typically ignore diet advice medical professionals give them.
There is not a single example of socialized medicine increasing visits to a nutritionist. These countries typically have rationing boards and are just as frugal as insurance companies.
- These countries have more people visiting the doctors due to it being universal.
- Economic prosperity doesn’t equal obesity rates necessarily, countries in my previous source such as Egypt, Samoa, and Qatar all aren’t in the best economic positions and yet have obesity rates even higher than the US's.
I didn’t commit a bare assertion. I gave examples of extra regulations in one sector having bad results
- Giving a couple of examples isn’t comparable to entire countries with higher regulations than the US's and is performing better.
This is an example of socialization driving costs of healthcare in the US.
- This isn’t the case since the US's costs are significantly higher than any other country, including countries with higher levels of socialized medicine.
Pro has dropped my argument that 44,000 additional deaths happen in Canada due to increased waiting.
Pro asserts that I am working with assumed stats..we are debating how something will work in theory so we are both making assumptions
My opponent claims that Canada has a worse system than other socialist countries but failed to explain why America would socialize healthcare any better.
- Canada has a significantly lower GDP per capita and has lower tax revenue and thus has a significantly worse off economy than the US's.
Source Link:
Con
#8
4 Point Voting
This is not a select winner debate. My opponent chose the 4 point system because he wants more than just arguments to be judged. I agreed to a debate with a 4 point system because I want all the points judged as well. Neither of us argued for any grammar points so you can ignore that, though my grammar is better overall, even if you spot a few mistakes. Regardless of the judges actual opinions on the matter, all 4 points should be judged and a winner decided on each one.
Conduct
Pro asked my permission to post the link to sources since he could not seem to get his argument down to below 10,000 characters any other way. So please do not deduct a conduct point from him on that basis. If you want to deduct one for the reasons I mentioned earlier than by all means do. If you want to reward me one for being gracious enough to allow him to mildly break the structure of the debate, that is fine as well.
I’m not going to touch on much in my opponent’s final round. New arguments don’t count in the final round, so all the new arguments he made should be disregarded. So when pro makes an argument like the following;
“Let’s say we have 10 people under a privatized healthcare plan and only 5 get nutritional advice.
Let’s say only 20 % so only 2 people take it. “
It should be ignored just as if I respond by pointing out there is absolutely no evidence that people would receive more or better dietary advice under a socialist healthcare system, it should be ignored. The fact he has tried to add new arguments is debatably worthy of a conduct point, and if judging the debate in a Tabula Rasa style, the judges should certainly weigh are arguments on conduct points without inserting their own judgement to see if either one of us deserve one.
Sources
I do think with how the sources have been used in this debate, I deserve source points. Not only did/959iu he not cite all of the “facts” he brought up, but when he did cite facts he intentionally misinterpreted what the citations said. For example when he stated he had sources claiming that Americans had a shorter life expectancy due to a lack of socialized medicine, but I read through his sources and they merely claimed Americans had a lower life expectancy, without attributing a cause. He seemed to concede that people were dying because of their eating choices, but claimed socialized medicine will somehow force me to stop drinking beer and eating pizza. (I know, I am on a tangent)
His sources are being cited for things they don’t say, he misses sources for facts such as the 7.7 trillion dollar figure. The other problem is it is hard to track what each source is even for which fact, because they are just haphazardly lumped together at the bottom of the page, making it hard for me to even check just one, if I buy most of his facts but merely doubt just one for example.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Introduction
Even the points pro brings up that I can address from his final round, I will not be responding to. He cannot respond to what I post in the final round, so out of a sense of fairness, I will show him the same respect. Neither one of us should have it held against us, that we are unable to respond to each other’s final round.
My Case
My argument I laid out in round one. Let’s examine it to see if it still stands at the end of this debate.
P 1- economic freedom causes a higher standard of living.
P 2- Socialist policies are antithetical to economic freedom
C 1- socialist policies are responsible for a lower standard of living.
The conclusion is naturally derived from the premises. If my premises stand, than my argument stands and pro loses the debate.
During the course of the debate, I argued that economic freedom as defined by the economic freedom index creates a higher standard of living. This premise is never objected to, and the judges should accept it as true.
My 2nd premise is that socialist policies are antithetical to economic freedom. My opponent claims that since some of the top countries have socialist policies, that these policies are not antithetical to economic freedom. However it only proves that every country has room for improvement in the economic freedom index. It does not prove that more socialist policies would not drive these countries even lower in the economic freedom index or total score the country is assigned.
I supported my premises by stating that the following 5 areas scored on the index are harmed by all socialist policies to some degree.
“government spending, tax burden, business freedom, labor freedom, monetary freedom,”
For each of those points I gave one or more premises for how socialism causes a country to lose points. My opponent, barely challenged me on this, if he challenged me at all. Remember he never challenged the economic freedom index as a good measure for what we are measuring in this debate. He also never challenged this second premise that socialist countries have a negative impact on these scores.
Since my first premise and second premise go unchallenged and the conclusion naturally derives from the premises (this statement has went unchallenged as well), than I should automatically win on argument points.
Pro’s Arguments
I summed up pro’s arguments as follows;
P1- universal healthcare has more positives than negatives
P2- universal healthcare would require/be an increase in “socialization”
C1- More socialization would overall be beneficial to society
Pro seems to agree with my analysis and summary of his arguments. I never challenged pro on premise 2. I think I could show how it could actually decrease socialization in total, but it wasn’t worth my time to explain that. So his 2nd premise should stand.
Premise number one is what I took issue with. If we look at the impacts, we can see that despite privatized medicine being responsible for some deaths, socialized medicine if applied and assuming we would apply it as well as the UK or Canada, would result in a massively more people dying from socialized medicine that would die if America just kept medicine private.
I showed that socialism has had the unintended side effects of causing prices in medicine to soar because of a disconnect between consumers and the actual cost of care. This goes unchallenged. He argued that socialism would drop prices a tiny bit on medical care, but not removing the socialist policies that caused the prices to soar (and pro does not dispute that assertion), is also a decision for more socialism and I showed that a decision for less socialism in medicine by removing the cause of the current problem would result in lower drug costs.
I also argued that even if socialist healthcare had some positive impacts on health (even though I proved it didn’t), that it does not prove an overall positive impact to society and I pointed to the scoring of the economic freedom index to prove this. My opponent amazingly does not contest this argument.
Conclusion
I want to thank Pink Freud for this debate. It was fun. I wish him good luck in future debates.
If we look at how I framed the debate, my frame was never challenged, my premises were never challenged, only some individual points in the premises. My opponent has dropped tons of my affirmative arguments.
My opponent only argued for one benefit to socialization, I think I defeated his first premise, but even if I did not, I certainly showed that the conclusion does not necessarily flow from the premises. Anyway, thanks for getting this far in reading the debate, hopefully it was enjoyable. Please vote.
Introduction
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
https://www.debateart.com/debates/1101?open_tab=comments&comments_page=2&comment_number=373
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
See comments: https://www.debateart.com/debates/1101/comment_links/15335
Gist:
Con misrepresents pro’s case by acting like it’s an all or nothing deal, and we intuitively know what pro meant, but pro does not sufficiently refute this (he argues that absolute socialism isn’t the socialism he’s arguing in favor of, but that misses that an increase in socialism is taking steps toward absolute socialism... It’s a slippery slope fallacy, but an incredibly well executed one). I’m quite surprised to not see any mention of the bell curve for gains and losses. Con also makes very good use of syllogism to prove that socialism hurts more than it gains.
Note:
I can see how arguments could go either way, I can see how sources could be tied, but there's no case for conduct not favoring con if the debate has been read.
Cause you didn't make a good argument and now winning is a formality, when winning is easy it makes debating boring.
What's your point? I don't have time to spend hours formulating an argument that I can state in around an hour.
Considering my win-loss ratio on DART and on DDO, my strategy seems to be doing ok.
I don't expect you to spend hours on an argument and neither should you.
If I did misrepresent points, bring it up in the debate however it's my choice how long I need to spend on an argument, if I can make a good argument in an hour I don't see the problem.
I read your arguments upwards of ten times, researched for 2 pomodoros (1 hour) and spent 4 pomodoros (2 hours) writing while simultaneously researchibg my response. I showed your arguments a lot of respect
Debating for this long, I can comprehend arguments pretty fast. And great if I did miss comprehend issues bring it up in the debate.
You published your argument 49 minutes after I published mine. It probably takes an hour just to really digest what I said in the debate, and another couple of hours to devise a competent response. Please take your time. From what you wrote it is clear their is some comprehension problems on your side. Reread what I wrote, check my sources. Go for a walk so everythibg can settle in and resonate with you. This is incredibly disrespectful to write a response before you even give yourself a chance to comprehend what was discussed so far
Alright here you go, there are also sources stating the same thing if this one doesn't work again.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/06/03/would-bernie-sanderss-medicare-for-all-save-americans-money/?utm_term=.fcfeb3402760
Okay still need washington post link but found the stat you forgot to cite here https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/09/new-study-finds-45000-deaths-annually-linked-to-lack-of-health-coverage/
Your washington post link is broken. Can you post it in the comments so I can check your citation
Forgot to bring up a few arguments concerning the questions and how they're important, I'll add them to the next round as they're pretty important. My apologies.
" The reason that cities are more liberal is that they gain a lot more for voting liberal. Government spending on roads, public transportation, etc is much more popular in cities than in rural areas for obvious reasons."
- Not true, if this was the case than educated states like Oregon, Vermont, and Colorado wouldn't be voting liberal.
Also, this analogy fails since people in rural areas also have benefited from government spending.
Do you seriously not believe people in rural areas need to be kept up roads or healthcare benefits?
" Give me specifications for quantifying this bias and I can look into it in the next few days. Do I look at reasons for voting and say they are insufficient?"
- Look at votes by liberals with votes that are biased.
Finding insufficient votes doesn't prove a bias, plenty of votes by both sides are insufficient.
Personally, this would be the best way however on such a small website without statistical data nor studies this is rather hard to back up as evidenced by Dr.Franklin who gave up and conceded.
If you have a low ratio on the site, it's your fault not a " liberal bias "
" . However, again, these "statistics" could be caused by biased votes that support liberals. "
- You have to actually prove that to be true.
" Again, I'm not arguing that everyone votes for their own side. I'm arguing that they tend to vote for people with similar opinions."
- Not true at all, the more likely reason that I backed up earlier with evidence is that liberals are generally more educated and have better arguments.
So you're for fair trade, essentially? I agree with you. The general answer is:let them sell at a loss, our consumers benefit. It is rather short-sighted, because their monopolies will overcharge substantially
Well Omar and boat's debate was apolitical. They weren't arguing on a specific political issue, so political bias didn't really apply.
The reason that cities are more liberal is because they gain a lot more for voting liberal. Government spending on roads, public transportation, etc is much more popular in cities than in rural areas for obvious reasons.
Give me specifications for quantifying this bias and I can look into it in the next few days. Do I look at reasons for voting and say they are insufficient?
Also, it could be that they are debating worse. However, again, these "statistics" could be caused by biased votes that support liberals. Again, I'm not arguing that everyone votes for their own side. I'm arguing that they tend to vote for people with similar opinions.
I am for Laisse Faire capitalism if other nations are behaving ethically. Unfortunately China does things like sale televisions at a loss so American companies can't compete, which is why America does not have any TV manufacturers. They attempted the same thing with Solar panels until Trump shut that down to save American companies
Alright, thanks for answering the questions, are you going to take this debate seriously because looking at a few debates lead me to believe you don't take debating on the site seriously and just troll.
Oh and another question, I assume you're an economic nationalist correct?
I won't answer the questions in the debate, but since you are curious I will answer them here.
- What's your position on the minimum wage?
That it should be abolished, but I think wages are close to the market rate now so not that important but it could be in the future.
- What's your position on mass immigration and illegal immigration?
I am mostly opposed to them. I have no problem with legal immigration, as far as mass immigration it is usually harmful to the society and particularly women left behind mass migration so it should be avoided.
- What's your opinion on the redistribution of wealth?
Other than a basic minimum income, it should be avoided.
- Are you a conservative or anarcho libertarian?
Closer to libertarian, and libertarians are usually pro government not anarchist.
Has he even conceded a single point?
If not is there point carrying on.
If yes try and make analogies using the thing he conceded on.
Just call him a coward for not accepting (Don't have to but you can if you want to).
" The bias is that the liberals are doing all the voting. They find other liberals' arguments more agreeable. Common sense."
- If this was the case then explain how in a lot of instances the liberals generally vote for the side that has the best argument as evidenced by omars debate with boat and Dr.Franklins debate. Among several other debates.
" You said that smarter countries are more liberal, that more urbanized places are more liberal, and that they are more educated. You were calling (at least most) conservatives dumb."
- Less educated doesn't necessarily mean dumb personally.
Yes, people in less urbanized areas are generally dumber than people in urban areas however we need to also remember the conservatives in urban areas.
However considering urban areas are generally more liberal and unurbanized areas are more conservative, ok fine conservatives are generally dumber than liberals.
" Even if that were true, you are saying that the entire reason for the disparity is just that we have worse debate skills and are less educated? That sounds incredibly ignorant and generalizing."
- Statistics are statistics.
This hypothesis is most likely true and is a better explanation than a " liberal bias " as the bias isn't backed up by evidence at all.
No, Alec is formidable. I'm just saying that instead of being maybe 4th place, those extra debates pushed him to 1st.
The bias is that the liberals are doing all the voting. They find other liberals' arguments more agreeable. Common sense.
The two debators I were referring to were the low ratio hated "liberals"
You said that smarter countries are more liberal, that more urbanized places are more liberal, and that they are more educated. You were calling (at least most) conservatives dumb.
Even if that were true, you are saying that the entire reason for the disparity is just that we have worse debate skills and are less educated? That sounds incredibly ignorant and generalizing.
Let's wrap this up in 1-2 more comments.
" Yeah, most of those studies that show disparities are very misleading. Once they take into account the circumstances of each shooting, sentence, or whatever you choose, the difference is either highly mitigated or disappears entirely."
- I merely did this to demonstrate a point, how are they misleading?
" I'm not saying that liberals are the problem. In terms of active members on the site, the majority of them are liberal. Most of the consistent voters are liberal. Perhaps that is conservatives' fault for not voting more. I know I should."
- If you admit this, then where is the bias than?
" Alec got really high up because early on he did a lot of "all guns should be banned debates".
- More character assassinations, Alec still faced off against worthy opponents and did topics about other issues.
" I would have to look into those two specific debators. They could be trolls or children for all I know."
- They were Ramshutu and Ragnar both of which top debaters on the site and liberals who voted for Dr.Franklin
". Economic and social "liberalism" is correlated with intelligence. Economic liberalism is defined as the ability to enter into voluntary transactions and enjoy "the fruits of their labor"."
- No statistic nor study to back this up.
" https://theconversation.com/do-smart-people-tend-to-be-more-liberal-yes-but-it-doesnt-mean-all-conservatives-are-stupid-57713"
- NEVER stated all conservatives are dumb.
My point is that the reason why they are lower on the leaderboards is that conservatives are generally less educated and therefore less skilled at debating.
I find this hypothesis more likely than a leftist bias on the site for the reason why conservatives can't pull ahead on the leaderboards.
It depends on your "intelligence" point. The smartest people tend to be libertarian types. Economic and social "liberalism" are correlated with intelligence. Economic liberalism is defined as the ability to enter into voluntary transactions and enjoy "the fruits of their labor". This is more of what conservatives believe. On the other hand, social liberalism is also correlated with intelligence, which is something they don't believe in.
https://theconversation.com/do-smart-people-tend-to-be-more-liberal-yes-but-it-doesnt-mean-all-conservatives-are-stupid-57713
Yeah, most of those studies that show disparities are very misleading. Once they take into account the circumstances of each shooting, sentence, or whatever you choose, the difference is either highly mitigated or disappears entirely.
I'm not saying that liberals are the problem. In terms of active members on the site, the majority of them are liberal. Most of the consistent voters are liberal. Perhaps that is conservatives' fault for not voting more. I know I should.
Alec got really high up because early on he did a lot of "all guns should be banned debates". It is similar to "Socialism is completely evil". It is hard for the opponent to win because it starts them on a radical position. It was really smart of him. If I cared about moving up, I would create a bunch of debates similar to that.
I would have to look into those two specific debators. They could be trolls or children for all I know.
Ok bye you're a coward and have no argument.
There is no " liberal bias ", generally conservatives make poor arguments and are generally uneducated as evidenced by statistics that show that generally, the more educated states are the more urbanized liberal states and the more socialized countries.
" The point wasn't guilted by association, it was that people cite biases all the time, but it is difficult to believe."
- Actually, bias's are provable.
Surveys and statistical data have done a fine job of doing so.
Racist bias can be proven with statistical data such as policies.
Homophobia could be proven with statistical data such as hate crime statistics.
Neither of you has provided substantial evidence for me to believe DART is biased, therefore there is nothing me nor the mods can do about it.
" Just because you provided one example doesn't prove anything. What a pathetic attempt at "citing" your point. "
- I've provided numerous examples of Alec winning against liberals and people voting for Dr.Franklin as well as basic facts to debunk the " bias ".
For a website with only 200 people, this is the best I can do. The BOP is on you guys, not me.
" My point is that in close debates, they will generally choose people who they initially agree with. If you think that these voters are 100% objective every time they vote, you are quite mistaken."
- I ask again, can you provide me several examples of this occurring to back up your point?
Voters don't remain 100 % objective every time, I agree and it is a problem.
However, you guys are acting as though there is a liberal bias implying liberals are the problem.
Which is a poorly constructed hypothesis neither of you has backed up.
If there is a bias, then explain how Alec a conservative who makes good points was on the # 1 spot and has consistently remained on the top 10.
Explain how two liberals voted for Dr.Franklin
Explain how on DDO two liberals being billsands and backwardseden have poor ratios and one of which being backwardseden is hated.
Not to mention several other liberals on the site who have poor ratios.
Difficult to prove*
The point wasn't guilt by association, it was that people cite biases all the time, but it is difficult to believe.
Just because you provided one example doesn't prove anything. What a pathetic attempt at "citing" your point. How do I prove my side? Show an example of a liberal voting for a liberal? My point is not that liberals vote for liberals every time. My point is that in close debates, they will generally choose people who they initially agree with. If you think that these voters are 100% objective every time they vote, you are quite mistaken.
I made my point so bai
No, it isn't if you aren't going to address my counter-arguments than they still stand thus I will not be buying your conspiracy theory and character assassinations made.
If this is how you debate in actual debates than it isn't a " liberal " bias that's making you lose.
I don't want to address them,is that fine?
Ok, so you're dodging my critiques and my questions.
Great argument I am convinced.
Look, i made my claim and supported it, that's it.
By not responding to my arguments?
No, I'm proving my point,that's all
Ok so are you going to address my question and critique of it?
200th comment!
""Con goes off on a tangent with the police officers comparison"
Really, biased"
That was my original argument
Ok, how is dodging my arguments supporting your original argument?
No,Im supporting my original argument.
Ok, so you're just going to ignore my question and critique of your evidence.
It's biased though
Just because it's a liberal viewpoint doesn't mean that is clouding his judgment.
Not to mention, how about the rest of the vote?
Very clearly you and bmdrocks21 have no actual substantial evidence to back up your poorly constructed hypothesis.
It is a liberal viewpoint and is against Boat
How does that make him bias?
You were going off on a tangent which in his view hurt your argument.
Everybody just noob-snipes
"Con goes off on a tangent with the police officers comparison"
Really, biased
Firstly, ok why are the leaderboards " shit ".
Secondly, ok that's a pretty hefty vote. It doesn't appear to be biased in any way so can you please point out how it's specifically bias?
https://www.debateart.com/debates/206?open_tab=votes&votes_page=1&vote_number=2
That's not enough, the leaderboards are shit and Alec needs to stop obsessing over them.
This also isn't including the times where he faced off against smart opponents and lost.
Going onto your poor character assassination against Alec, this is nothing short than a baseless attack made against him.
Alec has noob sniped, but so has every other person on the top leaderboards.
He HAS faced off against capable opponents and won such as,
Virtuoso ( who is a liberal )
and
Rational Madman ( who is a liberal )
I am finding this conspiracy theory hard to believe when Alec has won against two smart liberals on the site.
BUT again you still haven't provided evidence that they only vote liberal
Correlation doesn't equal causation
Because if they are liberals, then they vote liberal