ANTIFA is equivalent to the KKK

I. Act of Harming to People

ANTIFA is in the same regard of violence as the KKK was to black people. ANTIFA has been radicalized by trying to take down the Conservative culture and will physical harm someone that disagrees with their philosophy and what they stand for. There acts of potential harm to human life including some of these examples

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj5JXrpwsZs&t=489s (In a clip around 2 minutes to 4minutes, a group of ANTIFA members plot to kill a Ben Shapiro debate attender and kidnap him using guns and hostility)

This is hate group action. Taking action to someone you find to disagree with is proving the definition of hostility and such things. This is a hate toward conservative, a sector of society and uses violence to get their way. The exact thing the KKK did. The KKK lynched people of color and did things to harm them, the ultimate goal of ANTIFA in this clip

https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/8/12/17681986/antifa-leftist-violence-clashes-protests-charlottesville-dc-unite-the-right (This article shows them attacking police officers and reporters, innocent members of society)

These are countless attacks on societies people to get their way on people who criticized them and what they stand for. The exact way the KKK did to people who opposed them. They spoke and questioned their souls and such. This is proof that they resemble the KKK

There are video clips showing ANTIFA members beating up on law and society for the fun of it and trying to get their way to usually conservative cops, proof 

ANTIFA claims that hurting these people and trying to get rid of the police officers is a moral right to stopping the spread of neo-Nazis and fascist. They made think what they are doing is bringing social justice and harmony, but is what the KKK was doing. They wanted to bring a government where black people are segregated or are slaves in society. This institution is the same hate that ANTIFA wants to spread. They violated the law with their hate that is clearly established, therefore making ANTIFA in the same rank as a hate group.

III. ANTIFA violates the 1st Amendment Right

KKK and ANTIFA have both violated the constitution and an amendment. The KKK violated the 13th Amendment, but ANTIFA violates the Bill of Rights. It is unconstitutional in it's act and that automatically causes it to be a hate group. They cover their faces like the KKK did knowing that they are violating the basic rights of a human under the constitution

If it violates tghe amendment, there is no need for it to be around. The spread of violence makes a strong case about it. If they do not allow people to speak without resorting to harm, this is a direct violation. They are built off of speech of harm and hate, and it should not be allowed in our society. The KKK bases themself in the same way.

If the KKK is a hate group because of the brutal attacks and violation of the 1st Amendment, ANTIFA is the same way, proving the hate.

My thanks to SupaDudz for instigating this debate; an excellent topic which I’ve been wanting to discuss.
Definitions:
CON accepts Wikipedia’s definition of HATE GROUP as offered by PRO.  To maintain consistency, CON offers the following further definitions, also pulled from Wikipedia.

• The Antifa movement is “a conglomeration of left-wing autonomous, militant anti-fascist groups in the United States.The principal feature of antifa groups is their use of direct action, with conflicts occurring both online and in real life. They engage in varied protest tactics, which include digital activism, property damage, physical violence, and harassment against those whom they identify as fascist, racist, or on the far-right.”
  

• The Ku Klux Klan, (commonly called the KKK or the Klan), is “an American white supremacist hate group.  The Klan has existed in three distinct eras at different points in time during the history of the United States. Each has advocated extremist reactionary positions such as white nationalism, anti-immigration and—especially in later iterations—Nordicism and anti-Catholicism. Historically, the Klan used terrorism—both physical assault and murder—against groups or individuals whom they opposed.  All three movements have called for the ‘purification’ of American society and all are considered right-wing extremist organizations.
  

Let’s also define EQUIVALENT since that is the comparative adjective on which our discussion will hinge. (from Mirriam-Webster)

• Equivalent means (in this context)  “equal in force, amount, or value.”
  

It might be worthwhile to note that Wikipedia (PRO’s source for the term HATE GROUP) defines the KKK as a hate group right off the bat but the same source does not define Antifa as a hate group.
RESOLUTION:  Antifa is equivalent to the KKK as a hate group.
PRO didn’t define our respective burdens for proof.  The BOP might weigh a little heavier on PRO’s side for instigating but I think we can agree that BOP is shared to some degree. In order to win this debate, PRO must show that Antifa is a hate group equal in force, amount, or value to the Ku Klux Klan.  Conversely, if CON can  demonstrate that the KKK is far more significant in terms of membership, history, impact on American lives, and/or impact on American politics then CON should be voted the winner of this debate.
Following PRO’s debate structure, CON’s assignment for R1 is to respond to PRO’s three R1 arguments and then add one argument of CON’ s own, which obviously proscribes a certain handicap for CON's case but I will endeavor to pack a lot into that one point.
Response to PRO’s R1 arguments:
Taken as a whole, all three of PRO’s claims are alike in assertion and alike in the fallacy of false equivalence.

• The fallacy of false equivalence is described as “An argument or claim in which two completely opposing arguments appear to be logically equivalent when in fact they are not. The confusion is often due to one shared characteristic between two or more items of comparison in the argument that is way off in the order of magnitude, oversimplified, or just that important additional factors have been ignored.
  

Logical Form:

In the following cases the most important differences will be found in the order of magnitude: the KKK has historically killed more people, done more damage, corrupted more political thought than Antifa could ever hope to rival.  Wikipedia offers this example of false equivalency:
"The Deepwater Horizon oil spill is no different from your neighbor dripping some oil on the ground when changing oil in his car."
The comparison is between things differing by many orders of magnitude: Deepwater Horizon spilled 210 million US gal (790 million l) of oil; one's neighbor might spill perhaps a pint (0.5 L).”
 
I. Act of Harming to People
In logical form PRO’s argument runs:

I.A  Obviously, civil society recognizes many kinds and degrees of violence.  Murder is generally considered worse than assault which is in turn worse than threats of violence.  For Antifa and the Klan to be alike in violence, PRO must demonstrate that the Klan and Antifa are guilty of violence to roughly the same degree.  Of course, PRO has no hope of demonstrating such similarity because no similarity exists. To demonstrate Klan equivalence, PRO only offers two rather unimpressive examples:
I.A.1.  PRO’s first example of Antifa violence is a YouTube video of an ABC News report of a rumor of violence spread by a conservative YouTube personality.  University of Utah spokesperson Chris Nelson told the local Fox News station that same evening that, “Police looked at the video, evaluated other information available to them, and determined the individuals did not pose a credible threat that warranted action.”
CON’s first example of Klan violence is the 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing in Birmingham, Alabama on Sept. 15, 1963.  The FBI determined that four known Klansmen planted at least 15 sticks of dynamite under the steps of the church, timed to explode during Sunday morning services.  4, 11-14 year old choir girls were killed, 22 other churchgoers were maimed, blinded, and otherwise injured.
I.A.2  PRO’s second example of Antifa violence does show 2 bottle rockets fired into the air and one egg nearly hitting a reporter.  The Washington Post’s description of the event was less interested,  “...outside of a confrontation between some Antifa, or ­anti-fascist, protesters and police long after the rally had ended, there were no reports of violence.”  The Wikipedia entry for the Unite the Right 2 Rally states that the “rally ended without violence.”
CON’s second example of KKK violence is the Lynching of Michael Donald in Mobile, Alabama in 1981.  After a Klan meeting and cross burning, two Klan members drove around town looking for any random black person to attack.  Michael Donald, a 20 year old newspaperman, was beaten, hanged, and his throat was slit three times.
I.A.3  PRO further claims that “these are countless attacks on societies people.”  Since PRO’s specific examples fall far short of physical violence, CON is going to require considerable documentation to justify the claim “countless attacks.”
I.A.4 PRO claims there are video clips showing Antifa members “beating up on law and society” for fun.  I think PRO’s intended meaning would be more clear if PRO actually supplied the video clips referenced.
I.B  In fact, CON finds no credible evidence that any Antifa member has ever taken a life in the name of politics.  Nor can CON find any reports that support a claim that any victim of Antifa violence has suffered permanent injury- loss of limb or vision, etc.
I.B.1  On the other hand, credible evidence does exist that the Klan has taken American lives and injured many more.  Hard numbers are hard to come by but the US Freedmen’s Bureau documented thousands of murders by the Klan during the Reconstruction Era.  The Tuskegee Institute has managed to documented 4,743 lynchings between the years 1882 and 1968, most of which can be attributed to the Klan to some degree.  For our purposes, let’s be conservative and say that the Klan has certainly murdered more than 5,000 people during its history, and likely killed two or three times that number.
I.C  PRO has argued that the Klan and Antifa are alike in violence.  CON compares at least 5,000 dead from the Klan vs. 0 dead from Antifa argues that Antifa is nothing like the Klan in terms of violence.
II. The Claim of “Morally Right”
II.A  CON sees little evidence that either the KKK or Anifa spend much time justifying their activities.  Vigilantism, almost by definition, leaves the political punditry and moral justifications to other organizations less willing to act.  If PRO wants to claim that Antifa claims a moral right to violence, PRO needs to document that claim specifically and show how that moral justification matches assertions by the Ku Klux Klan.
III.  Antifa violates the 1st Amendment Right
III.A  Since the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States only restricts government action, PRO’s statement is false.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances”
Antifa is not an agent of the US Federal Government and so activities by Antifa are not restricted by the First Amendment.
III.B  PRO and CON should agree that free speech in a human right that is generally abrogated by most any act or threat of violence no matter how minor.
III.C  Laurie Roberts’s opinion piece for azcentral.com (submitted by PRO as evidence), clearly refutes PRO’s assertion of equivalence:
“ As if the damage done by far-left extremists is in any way equivalent to the damage done by far-right radicals.
It isn't.
According to the conservative Daily Caller, right-wing extremists have committed anywhere from 73 to 92 percent of the ideologically motivated murders in the U.S. over the last 10 years. To date, Antifa has killed ...
... no one.”
III.D  Since PRO invokes a third case of Antifa violence, let’s extend the comparisons refuting the claims of equivalent violence.
III.D.1 PRO’s third example of Antifa violence is the August 27, 2017 “Say No to Marxism” counter-protest in Berkeley, CA.  Wikipedia documents 7 injuries: 2 ER visits for pepper-spray, 4 other minor injuries and one policeman hit in the helmet by an apple.  The apple thrower was charged with two misdemeanors, later dropped. At least 2 of the 13 arrested (and subsequently, repeatedly mis-identified as Antifa activists) are well known right-wing agitators, Harlan Pankau and Kristopher Wyrick.  Therefore, the extent to which acts of violence can be attributed to Antifa is muddied, at best.
III.D.2 CON’s third example of Klan violence is excerpted from W. E. B. Du Bois’ “ Black Reconstruction in America: 1860–1880:”
“The presidential election of 1868 spurred the planters and their allies to deliberate activity. They saw a chance to nullify the vote of black labor, unite with Northern copperhead Democracy and capture the government. Frank Blair egged them on to revolution. "The testimony shows that over 2,000 persons were killed, wounded, and otherwise injured in Louisiana within a few weeks prior to the Presidential election in November, 1868; that half the state was overrun by violence; and that midnight raids, secret murders, and open riot kept the people in constant terror until the Republicans surrendered all claim. . . . But the most remarkable case is that of St. Landry, a planting parish on the river Teche. Here the Republicans had a registered majority of 1,071 votes. In the spring of 1868 they carried the parish by 678. In the fall they gave Grant no vote, not one—while the Democrats cast 4,787, the full vote of the parish, for Seymour and Blair. Here occurred one of the bloodiest riots on record, in which the Ku Klux killed and wounded over 200 Republicans, hunting and chasing them for two days and nights through fields and swamps. Thirteen captives were taken from the jail and shot. A pile of twentyfive dead bodies was found half-buried in the woods. Having con- quered the Republicans and killed and driven oflf the white leaders, the Ku Klux captured the masses, marked them with badges of red flannel, enrolled them in clubs, made them vote the Democratic ticket, and then gave them a certificate of the fact."
"In the parish of St. Bernard, a Negro was killed; a black mob killed a white man. Three steamboats filled with armed ruffians left New Orleans for the scene of the riot. Before the trouble could be composed, a dozen or fifteen men were slain."
"Frightful conditions prevailed up the Red River around Shreveport, in Caddo and Bossier Parishes, a trading center for Texas, Arkansas, and the Indian Nations. A United States army officer on duty in this place saw two or three men shot down in the street in front of a store in which he sat. He picked up the bodies of eight men who had been killed in one night. Never had he heard of any one being punished for murder in that country."
"One hundred and twenty corpses were found in the woods or were taken out of Red River after a 'Negro hunt' in Bossier parish."
+1 More Argument
IV.  Within the set off all hate groups, Antifa and the Klan are diametrically opposed along many axes.
IV.A  Let’s acknowledge that our agreed upon definition of hate group is rather wide-ranging.  If hostility against any designated sector of society makes a hate group then Denver Broncos fans certainly qualify as a hate group regarding fans of the Oakland Raiders.  By our present definition, most Americans belong to some kind of hate group but hate group membership doesn’t make most Americans particularly Klan-like.
IV.B The Southern Poverty Law Center describes the Ku Klux Klan oldest, largest, and most infamous hate group in American history.  
IV.B.1  The first few years after the Civil War were by far the bloodiest but Klansman have continued murdering innocents for more than a hundred and fifty years, right up until the present day.  
By contrast, the present iteration of Antifa coalesced in response to the 2016 election and the resulting rise in racist attacks.  
IV.B.2  Klan membership peaked in 1925 at around 4 million members (more than 3 percent of the US population).  
Antifa membership is difficult to quantify by design but the Berkeley protests described above seem to be the largest documented assemblage of probable Antifa members- about 100 people.  
IV.B.3  The Klan is also large in American folklore, the heroes of D.W. Griffith’s 1915 epic The Birth of a Nation, the villains of many later films like the Coen brothers 2000 musical comedy O Brother, Where Art Thou?  
Antifa has no history in America, no folklore.
IV.B.4  This claim is strictly personal observation and difficult to document but the average Klan member seems to be in his 50s, white, male, with a high school education. Judging mostly by arrest records, Antifa seems mostly in their 20’s, non-white, college educated, and female and queer to a remarkable degree, possibly even comprising a majority of Antifa groups.
IV.C   The Ku Klux Klan is explicitly anti-American, whereas Antifa is explicitly anti-Fascist.
IV.C.1  The Klan was founded Confederate soldiers just months after the end of the American Civil War in an effort to continue the anti-black violence that divided the nation and in explicit defiance of the Federal government’s efforts at Restoration.  To this day the organization frequently flies the battle flag of the United States’ most lethal and dangerous enemy and rejects the founding principle of American Democracy: that all men were created equal.
Anti-fascist organizations on the other hand have a long history of alliance with US causes, most notably against the rise of fascists in Germany and Italy before and during World War II.

My opponent claims that the same source does not define ANTIFA as a hate group. This is because the KKK is the most notorious hate group in America. We will soon realize that ANTIFA is the same hate genre as the KKK itself, due to leftist belief that they are morally right to kill and shoot people and kidnap people because of conservative values.

In the video itself, the video clearly displayed a knife in the persons hand. There was also a display of a gun too. There intent was too do something harmful and bad. While the threat diminished and was not credible, there was a threat there in the first place. Many KKK leaders have called for action when action was not credible in a sense. The media covered up what they did too.

The KKK had the resources to get bombs and weapons around that nature to commit these mass harming. They had various funds coming in because they were an established group that was projecting wealth. Security was extremely low too and the threat level in the US was low too. No one would have thought a mass bombing like that from that group would have happen. ANTIFA lives in an age where the world is stricter and harder to get those weapons. They would use these weapons the same way the KKK did. If they are willing to beat up police officers and kidnap people, then they have the ability to kill.

Rocket launchers had the intent to destroy something in it's path and potentially hurt someone. That was the reason it happened. The ACT of harming or the attempt is what justifies them as a hate group

Unfortunately the website that supplied to video clips could not send the clips. I tried searching, but I was not successful. If I find any in the debate, i will post in comments

CON ignores the evidence of police officers being beaten in prison and how ANTIFA members have attacked police officers. I will source: https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-far-left-violence-20170829-story.html

All these articles prove that ANTIFA has the intent to harm people, and these article show their actions and highlight what they have done. They have harmed people. If you want more, I will soul search

Killing is not nearly the biggest outlier of a hate group. The intent to kill and persecute is the real nail in the coffin. ANTIFA proves they want to kill and harm others, falling into the same boat as nearly all the hate groups. They don't have resources to kill, but they can brutally harm and beat up as they do. The intent is to kill and harm, making them equal

We also have to look at time span in this debate. The KKK has been around for nearly 3 centuries and extreme ANTIFA has only been around in 3 years. If there violence keeps happening, it will progress into the same force the KKK has done

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My opponent ignores the point here. Some of my evidence from the article even show how they justify themselves. The KKK justified themselves and ANTIFA justifies there attacks and intent to harm. They violently protest and they beat up people because they people from their perspective, they are morally right.

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The First Amendment also states that they are allowed to protest in a non violent and peaceful way. The constitution applies to our lassiez-fair system too with people. A person can not restrict another person right to freedom. The Constitution clearly states this. ANTIFA wants to silence conservatives. A person is held to the same standards of the constitution.

Her whole news feed is full of opinions and such. She is an opinion author in that sense. She does nothing more than spread her views. My opponent also states killing, but I am saying that both sides have the same intent to kill. ANTIFA is literally a military coup ready to kill. They are ready to kill people. My evidence shows the violence they have instated. Both parties are allowed to speak, but they can not act in the way that is unconstitutional. Both the KKK and ANTIFA are unconstitutional.

CON keeps relating to violence. These are small things that eventually could turn into the magnitude the KKK had and what they did. My evidence shows the capability they had at the time. 

My opponents state that they are opposite and this is true, but because of who they are hating against, not the hate itself

This does not mean that ANTIFA is not the 2nd biggest in American history or could overtake that in the future. The time that ANTIFA has been around is way less than the KKK.

Membership of ANTIFA is on the rise as well

The KKK was not a folklore at the time near its formation. ANTIFa has been around for a smaller amount of time. This argument is bogus because the history is being rooted, and it is a hate history

PRO is now running out of ideas, so they basically start saying characteristics. It doesn't matter what age, gender, sex, you are. If you are a hate group, you take charge at that group you hate. There is no sugar coating it.

Awaitng CON :)

That's not a claim, just a simple fact worth noting.  PRO used Wikipedia to define HATE GROUP.  Therefore, CON used the same source to define Antifa and the KKK.  The Wikipedia article for the KKK calls the clan a hate group right off the bat- that is who they are and what they do.  Wikipedia's article for Antifa never once calls Antifa a hate group.  Now we've agreed to use Wikipedia's very loose definition of HATE GROUP so there will be plenty of groups of people who may prove "hostile" to a "sector of society" without necessarily getting tagged as a hate group in encyclopedias, (Denver Broncos Fans were my R1 example) but it seems worth mentioning that Antifa is one of these while the Klan is primarily identified as a HATE GROUP.  That difference between the two groups speaks directly to my point.  Even PRO's sources suggest that the differences are important.

PRO has just about conceded the debate here.  Saying that Antifa will be the same as the Klan once they get around to shooting and kidnapping people is an admission that Antifa has not shot or kidnapped anybody so far, which fully undermines PRO's claim that Antifa and the KKK are alike in violence.  One group shoots and kidnaps, one group does not shoot or kidnap (or at least has not shot and kidnapped yet).  Unless PRO can show incontrovertible proof that Antifa will kill people in the future, PRO has lost the debate at this point.

Are we watching the same video?

1:51:the shot is two teenaged girls sitting on a park bench. We can't hear the sound but captions printed at the bottom suggest that some unseen interviewer is asking somebody, "Did you bring your gun?"  

1:55:The captions say that somebody  has answered, "I have a like on the border between just a regular rifle..assault weapon"  I suppose the speaker is off-screen, certainly the girls' lips are not moving.

1:56:Hard cut to anonymous hands holding an unfamiliar object. A pop up says "Will hands Jared ice pick" but the object shown does not seem to be an ice pick- there's some kind of hinge and a glass device attached.  Whatever that thing is it is not a knife, gun, or ice pick.

1:58:Hard cut back to the girls and the caption "sawed-off style shotgun"

2:00-:Another hard cut.  One of the girl's lips are moving and the captions read "And then I've got I've got a handgun" but those captions don't match whatever the girl is saying.

2:02- Another hard cut.  The caption reads, "yeah two AKs coming"  Again those words don't match what the girl is saying.

That's 4 cuts in the space of 11 second.  That is a lot of blatant editing out for something that supposed to be serving as evidence.

I'm not surprised that the Salt Lake Police dismissed this video as potential evidence of anything.  I don't see anything that looks like a weapon.  I don't see anything to suggest any members of Antifa are present.  Four video edits in 11 seconds suggests that the editor of the clip was working hard to manipulate content.  Seems to me that  if you were actually a member of an organization planning to assassinate Ben Shapiro you wouldn't be sitting around in the hours before the event giving interviews to people.  This whole clip strikes reads as one profoundly amateurish put up job.

Coupled with the fact that the videomaker, Steven Crowder, has been caught submitting manipulated videos to police as evidence before (and lost his job at Fox News soon after), I think we can safely dismiss PRO's evidence as fake news or at least entirely unverified.

Since the threat was deemed incredible, why would PRO continue to assert intent?  Since this video doesn't establish any kind of threat what evidence compels Pro to assert that there was a threat, a threat that later diminished?

ok

If anything, ABC's Nightline seems to be buying Crowder's heavily edited video without sufficient skepticism.  Certainly, they ran with the "threat of violence " angle before checking with the police.  Expressing credulity on the national news without first checking out the facts is more like the opposite of a cover-up, isn't it?

There is no good reason to buy any part of PRO's first example of violence but even if we accepted all of it as true it would still amount to no more than a rumor of violence not even actual violence, much less murder, much less murder of 5000+  which is the standard PRO has to accomplish in order to equate Antifa with the Klan.

Actually, so many black citizens had been attacked by Klansman throwing dynamite that the neighborhood was known as "Dynamite Hill."  Wikipedia suggests 50 such terrorist attacks in Birmingham, Alabama between 1947 and 1965.  So everybody expected mass bombing, had seen mass bombings before against the same group of people and knew more mass bombings were likely.  The Birmingham police were so thoroughly entrenched with the Klan that no security was considered, the bombings essentially represented the will of the local government.  The KKK perpetrator was well known, worked for the city in the police department's garage and was nevertheless not brought to justice for forty years.

Here's a military grade explosive more effective than dynamite you can buy online for $8/lb with minimal paperwork: https://arktimes.com/news/arkansas-reporter/2014/12/18/unrestricted-high-explosives-available-at-a-sporting-goods-store-near-you  Since this explosive has been available to Antifa all along, PRO's point is disproved.

 

PRO has failed to offer any evidence of Antifa beating up police and kidnapping people.  We have established that one probable Antifa member hit one police officer in the helmet with an apple in Berkeley two summers ago.  The charges were dropped and I can't even tell whether the police was the intended target.  Zero evidence for kidnapping.  Zero evidence for murder.

Bottle rockets are fairly far cry from rocket launchers.  I suppose a bottle rocket could take out an eye but if the level of violence offered by PRO is roughly consistent with the level of violence at an average Fourth of July picnic, then we aren't really comparing apples to apples, are we?

PRO does not seems to connect the scarcity of Antifa violence videos with the rarity of violence perpetrated by Antifa.  CON submits the scarcity described by PRO as evidence that violence by Antifa is uncommon.

CON has not been shown any evidence of police officers being beaten in prison.

Well, there was that apple.

This is another article about the same Aug 27, 2017 event where the apple was thrown.  2 people went to the hospital for pepper spray.  13 were arrested at least some of whom were know right-wing agitators.   Only the apple thrower was charged and those charges later dropped.   There were thousands of protesters on both sides of whom about 100 were Antifa.  If any evidence definitely establishes that Antifa caused the pepper spray hospitalizations, PRO has not found it.

This is an article from a conservative think-tank saying that Republican lawmakers are targeting Antifa by increasing penalties for criminals who commit certain crimes while concealing their identities.  Since criminals regularly conceal their identities while committing crimes it is not clear how this law was meant to target Antifa particularly.  In any case, the bill has not passed  (probably because any such increased penalty necessarily impact right wing violence disproportionate to  left wing violence.  Last year, for example, 100% of the fifty murders attributed to political violence in the US came from right-wing political extremists.   There were zero murders by left-wing extremists.

Mike Bivins, the maker of this video only identifies the perpetrator as "black clad."  Since members of the right-wing Patriot Prayer group were dressed in black:

and members of the Proud Boys were also dressed in black:

Well, what we are looking for is evidence that Antifa has murdered more than 5000+.  If PRO has any evidence that Antifa has killed someone that should be presented.  If not, keep soul searching.

Instructively, the only people present in all these articles are not Antifa members but Joey Gibson's Patriot Prayer and Tusitala "Tiny" Toese's Proud Boys.  These groups are based out of Portland, OR but the rallies described in Berkeley and San Francisco also originate as rallies organized by Gibson & Toese.  We also see these groups organizing rallies in Seattle and Austin and committing acts of violence whether or not Antifa is present.  Which side, then, is the more provocative?  This small group of thugs travelling from one liberal enclave to another or the local residents who counter-demonstrate?

Toese, like many members has a substantial violent criminal record.  One of the members who participated in these rallies, Jeremy Joseph Christian killed two train passengers who stepped in to protect teenage girls from his racial abuse.  At his trial Christian said in his defense, " You call it terrorism, I call it patriotism. You hear me? Die.  Leave this country if you hate our freedom—death to Antifa!"

Manifestly false.  Actual murder is always much worse than intent to murder- as is reflected by every criminal code I know of.  Persecution is a far more general term but murder is considered far worse than most incidents of persecution.  A group that has murdered thousands is manifestly more violent than a group that may or may not harbor some unsubstantiated intention of violence.

What evidence can PRO possibly show that establishes have every intention of being as violent as the Klan if only they didn't lack the resources?  PRO is reduced to wild speculation at this point.

Right!  That's another big difference between the two.  The KKK has been around for many decades of violence and therefore "the KKK is far more significant in terms of membership, history, impact on American lives, and/or impact on American politics."

Rather than quibble irrelevantly, I'll repeat my first round response to which PRO can agree or disagree: "PRO and CON should agree that free speech in a human right that is generally abrogated by most any act or threat of violence no matter how minor."

Does PRO mean conservatives instead of fascists (examples, please)  or  fascist conservatives (examples, please)?  Is wanting to silence someone better or worse than murder?

Which in this case contradict yours.  You used Robert's piece as evidence of Antifa violence but failed to notice that Roberts (like CON) believes that Antifa and the KKK are not (in any way equivalent).  Roberts is evidence submitted by PRO but substantiating CON.

Based on what?  Look, take the politics out of it and look at Robert's statistic objectively: if I told you that 73-92% of murders were committed by men, would you say that women are the same as men in terms of violence?  Of course not.  Women actually do about 15% of the murders in the US- so would you say that women and men are alike in their intention to kill its just that men are more decisive or women less resourceful or whatever?  Nope.  The fact that men perform 85% of the murders is pretty strong evidence that men and women are different in terms of violence and also that men harbor a more profound intent to kill.  

OK.  Now add back the politics and the actual breakdown: in the set of all members of hate groups that get labeled Antifa or Ku Klux Klan, 100% of the many thousands of murders were done by the Klan.  0.00% of the many thousands of murders were done by Antifa.  If you can accept that there are gender differences in murder and therefore intent to murder than one must likewise  accept an even more profound difference exists between Antifa and the Klan.

I expect this one will be particularly hard to prove.  Who's military is Antifa couping with?  What government is getting couped?  What parts of govt have already fallen to Antifa and how many are dead?

The last Antifa activity I can document is a 100 person march in Georgia on Superbowl Sunday.  No injuries or arrests.  What evidence do you have that Antifa is preparing to kill?  kill who?  where? when?

Instigated?  So far, every event PRO has offered has been counter-protest to a Proud Boys/Patriot Prayer rally.  So no instigation there.  Can prove that Antifa actually threw the first punch, apple, etc? at some event?

I don't think PRO knows what constitutionality is.  To the extent that the government may not simply shut down or make illegal the Ku Klux Klan than I suppose you might say the Klan is protected by the constitution. 

The topic is hate groups: the frequency and degree of comparative violence is entirely relevant.

Which is again concession that Antifa and the KKK are not now of the same magnitude.  I call that a win.

Please explain.

Yes, it does.  Using PRO's source, The Southern Poverty Law Center assembled a list of  1,020 US hate groups active in 2018.  Antifa is not on that list.  Indeed, the SPLC has never named any Antifa group as a hate group.

PRO stating that they might be alike in violence in the future does not serve as evidence that Antifa and the Klan are alike in violence now.  PRO's statement serves as evidence that Antifa and the Klan are NOT alike in violence.

Is it?  How did PRO make that determination?  How is Antifa membership determined?  ascertained?

Yeah, but Antifa also didn't kill many thousands of people in the first couple of years of its existence.  Antifa wasn't founded by famous enemy generals to preserve the violence and fascism of the enemy's institution of slavery long after the overwhelming majority of Americans rejected the violence and fascism of that institution as unAmerican.  The argument is that the very famous history of the KKK distinguishes the Klan by reputation and by potential threat from Antifa.

Agreed.  The point you missed is that there are important race, gender, and sex differences between the two groups.  We've already discussed how gender makes a difference both in real murder rates and murderous intention: seems highly relevant to point out that these gender differences are in play when we consider differences in violence between the two groups.  Women are less murderous.  Antifa's majority gender is less murderous than the Klan's majority gender- that is a difference in violence.

Let's face facts, the KKK is way, way worse than Antifa.  Set the BS about future Antifa and violent intent aside,  the KKK is just obviously way, way more murderous than Antifa.

Looks like PRO over-enjoyed his birthday this week.

Let's recall that the present tally is at least 5000 Americans murdered by Klan vs. No (ZERO) Americans murdered by Antifa.  This fact alone disproves that ANTIFA is equivalent to the KKK.

Nevertheless, Happy Birthday to PRO and extend all arguments into Round 4.

Concluding Statements

I have been a busy man, so I did not have time for R3.

Extend my args from R1, the openers, into the R4. Feel free to give conduct to CON

Vote PRO in args